WEBVTT

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Uh Good morning everyone . My name is

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Grant Campbell . I'm an assistant

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communication professor at Marine Corps

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University up at the Expeditionary

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Warfare School . And it's my pleasure

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today to introduce uh Colonel Sparks to

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you . He'll be giving us a talk today

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about what do creative problem solvers

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needs something . I think we I'll

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grapple with at a time or two as , as

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educators and teachers in some way ,

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shape or form . So without further ado

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Colonel Sparks and then we will have a

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question and answer session at the end .

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So take it away , sir . OK , thanks .

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Uh OK . So it's a privilege to uh go

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after that keynote . Uh because , um

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you know , he gave a preview of some of

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the things that I'm gonna talk about .

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Um Also , it's a little bit uh humbling

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to , to go after that keynote . Um Also

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yesterday's keynote talking about

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community . Um You know , I'm hoping

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that we can build a little bit of a

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community here and maybe in the future .

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Um So this project is uh was

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for my dissertation . I put my degree

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up there like no one else did because

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as someone said yesterday , I'm still

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glowing uh from having just finished it .

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Um Yeah , thanks .

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Um Some peop , some might say I'm

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actually just radioactive . Um OK . So

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here's the agenda really . There's two

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main things um as I sort of discussed

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already is just to build a local

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picture of creativity um here at MC U

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and specifically at Command and Staff

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College and then also to try to build

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some community and discussion around

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this topic . OK . So

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um for my dissertation , we had to

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develop a problem of practice based on

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our local community . Um I chose um

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creative thinking uh creative problem

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solving . Um You can see over here on

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the slide uh what creative problem

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solving is kind of covered already

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morning . Um But it's a combination ,

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creativity is a combination of ideas

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that are novel and useful . And then

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creative problem solving is that

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creativity combined with a plan for

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implementation or maybe outside of the

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academic context , we might just say

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implementation . Um But uh so

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um MC U for our accreditation , we

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developed uh uh uh quality enhancement

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plan um where we

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decided that we wanted 80% of students

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to be creative thinkers by the end of

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the uh or creative problem solvers by

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the end of the academic year . Um You

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know , outside perspectives . One of my

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committee members asked me like , why ,

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why 80% right ? Are you just uh se

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setting yourself up for , for failure

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here by giving an unrealistic goal . I

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mean , maybe um you can see the

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percentages there , usually there was

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improvement . Um but we didn't usually

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get to , to 80% . Um And so I wouldn't

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say it was a failure . I would just say

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um we've got more work to do . Um

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So how do we assess creativity ? We

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used the , the , the American

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Association of Colleges and

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Universities , creative thinking value

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rubric and we used experts in the field

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which were the , which were the faculty .

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Um They assessed uh papers

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presentations uh at least once a staff

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ride um for , for student creativity ,

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one obviously in the fall and one in

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the spring . Um there's some spikes up

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here . Um A Y 16 . Uh

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I don't know all the details about it ,

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but we sort of threw the data out for A

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Y 16 because we didn't like the

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methodology . Um A Y 20 which was COVID .

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I don't think the spike was because of

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COVID . I think it was because the

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prompts changed anecdotally talking to

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the faculty . Um So as I was going

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through factors trying to brainstorm ,

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you know , what might be contributing

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to the c create the environment for

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creativity here . Um I use Bronin

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Brenner's ecosystem theory and the one

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that I wasn't expecting , the one thing

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that popped out to me um was the Krona

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system which is has to do with time .

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And so I think there's two things

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related to time here . Um One is just

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time during the year of study . Right .

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It's a very high credit load and I

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think that's common across the PM E

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institutions . But , you know , if you

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said , uh , to , you know , another ,

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another master's degree program that

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students were going to do 41 credits in

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a year , uh , they probably , they

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probably wouldn't believe you . Um , so

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time and then , and then additionally ,

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um , you can see here on the continuum ,

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um , you know , instant willing

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obedience to orders is something that ,

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that I learned at O CS , for instance ,

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that people learn at recruit training ,

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that's maybe not the best thing for

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creativity , not that , that not , not

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that it's bad , right ? It's definitely

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necessary . Um But then as we get into

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the senior levels , um we expect

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creative thinkers more than instant

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willing obedience to , to uh orders .

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Um and command and staff college being

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intermediate level education is part of

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that transition . So I won't talk about

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all these factors . I think there are

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many factors . Um listening to today's

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presentation , I don't think I put

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convergent thinking up there . I should

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have , I should have done that . Um But

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uh the ones in red are what I , what I

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highlight for my study . So this is the

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conceptual framework . Um I wanna note

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about this , that um a

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couple of things , let me get my notes .

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OK . So these concepts are mostly

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in , in the surveys that I developed .

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They're mostly about um the environment

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for , for these things . So for

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instance , divergent thinking , we

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didn't give people personality tests ,

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we didn't give them , you know , the uh

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multiple uses test for those of you

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that are familiar with the creativity

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research . But we asked them , you know ,

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what's the environment for divergent

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thinking like at , at Command and Staff

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College um with authoritarianism which

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is in red because I think it has a

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negative effect . Um This is about um

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not do um well , it's mostly about the

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environment . Like , like do your

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fellow students do the faculty um have

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authoritarian uh attitudes ? Um or ,

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and in this case , it's a little bit

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about the students themselves . Do they ,

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do they have authoritarian attitudes ?

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Um Additionally , just real quickly

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talking about student knowledge um that

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one is um content related , you know ,

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so do I know uh enough about World War

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Two to think creatively ? Um but also

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um research methodology related , right .

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So do I know enough about research

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methodology in the academic sense to

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come up with a new useful idea and

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build a plan for implementation ? Um OK ,

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so this is a , so this part of my

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dissertation was a local needs

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assessment um focused on Command and

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Staff College here at MC U . Um Really ,

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I want to focus on the limitations , so

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very low sample sizes , right ? We

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actually don't have a very big sample

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or very big population to begin with

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and then , you know , response rates

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were , were decent actually , but it's

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just not a very big sample size . So

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type one error , which is , which is

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where we find an effect . Um When there

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wasn't actually one , I , I increased

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the type one , the , the possibility

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for type one error . Um uh uh

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because the sample size was so low . Um

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Still though I think the most pro the

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most probable error is type two error ,

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which is where there was an effect and

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we didn't find it . Um Of course , it

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was during COVID . Um OK , so

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data sources , um these are , you know ,

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all the different data that I that I uh

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used um I want to talk specifically

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about cognitive interviews and then

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about the surveys . Um So

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basically , um we use , I , I developed

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my own surveys which again , uh

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faculty on my dissertation committee

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were , were like , uh you shouldn't do

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that . Um You know , that's too much

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work . Um So , but I couldn't find a

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survey out there that I really liked .

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Um And so , and so I , I developed my

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own um we had , we did cognitive

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interviews with students and faculty to

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see um you know , the

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questions that I was asking , how are

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they understood ? Um One thing for

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instance , that , that we found one of

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the questions was basically what

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strategies do you use in your learning ?

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That's a paraphrase of the , of the

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question . But I found that actually

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students started thinking , oh , well ,

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strategy , that's the level of national

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policy . So , um you know , they were ,

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they were thinking about like dod

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strategies . Um And , and so I change

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it to tactics . What tactics do you uh

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do you use to , to help your learning ?

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Um So I mention all this because

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if you know , if anyone's interested ,

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I would love to continue to develop

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these , these surveys , um use them in

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other contexts , increase the sample

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sizes , um et cetera , but , you know ,

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just for be forewarned , um I already

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have a bunch of things I would change

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about the survey uh at this point . OK .

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So uh more on the surveys , um

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the faculty and student surveys were

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very similar to each other . Um um

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Faculty were not asked about meta

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cognition , but all the other factors

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that I that I talked in the about in

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the uh conceptual framework um were

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present in the surveys . Um ba had to

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balance between , you know , asking

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lots of questions , getting better

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factors and asking fewer questions so

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that more people would fill out the

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survey . Um uh

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uh Yeah . So , and then most of the

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questions are derived from these

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sources listed here . Um The factor

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for meta cognition just upfront . I

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really don't think that went well . Um

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I tried to shrink the meta cognition

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awareness inventory down to , to a

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smaller version . Um And I'm ,

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I'm not happy with how well that , how

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well that went . Um the stats there uh

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about model fit . I'll show I'll show

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correlations later , but model fit are

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not great um with a low sample size ,

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they're perhaps what could be hoped for .

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Um But they're not great . So , um

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further refinement is necessary . Um

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Another thing that I did is I looked at

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um our QEPS assessments from , from A Y

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21 . So QEP is that quality enhancement

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program . Um So thi this one

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was interesting to me um because the

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qep , like I said earlier , we use the

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American Association of Colleges and

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Universities rubric and we used faculty

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here um to evaluate uh student

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creativity because they're the ,

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they're the experts in the field um

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for , you know , probably norm reasons ,

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um reliability reasons . Some of the

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papers this time it was papers um were

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rated by two faculty members , one was

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a civilian and one was a uh military

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faculty member . Um So

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it was interesting the difference

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between civilian and military faculty

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members on these creativity ratings .

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Um for instance , the , the

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National Security paper in the fall ,

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it was more in the military faculties

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uh or sorry , more in the uh civilian

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faculties um area of teaching .

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Um And we see that the civilian faculty

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rated that , that those papers as , as

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less creative . Um whereas the military

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faculty a little bit less in their , in

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their um area of expertise , rated it

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as higher . Um And then we saw the

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reverse of for leadership where um the

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military faculty , this is their area

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of expertise and they rated um the

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papers lower on creativity than the

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civilian faculty . So , what does that

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suggest ? Possibly it suggests that um ,

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students are repeating what they heard

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in class . Um But some of the Raiders

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don't know that , um uh or , um , you

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know , maybe it just suggests knowing

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more about the topic , you have a

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higher standard of what's actually new

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and useful . Um

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I also did a , a small sample of feces

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from , from a Y 21 . I , I

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did this because I personally felt that

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the thesis was the place where the

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student got to be the most creative .

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You get to choose your topic , you get

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to choose um your methodology , you get

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to choose the faculty member that you

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work with . Um So I figured

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this would be the place where there

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would be the most creativity . Um

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Later on in my dissertation , I found

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that the students disagreed with me on

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that . Um And perhaps that's due to

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risk um because it's such a high stakes

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assessment . Um But we found that ,

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um well , let me , let me give a note

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real quick here about empirical versus

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non empirical . I'm not trying to uh

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create a debate about um what's

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empirical or what's what's non

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empirical . I tried to narrow the

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definition just for the purposes here

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um down to things like social science

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research um as opposed to historical

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case studies and the reason that I did

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that is because historical case studies

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are the things that students are the

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most exposed to here um when it comes

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to research methodology . And I wanted

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to see , you know , how well students

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did that used a different , a different

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methodology that's not really taught

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very much here . Um And so I found that

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three out of the 30 did empirical

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research methodology for their thesis .

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And interestingly enough , two of those

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three won awards . Um whereas the other ,

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the other 27 papers in the sample ,

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um uh only one of those papers won an

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award and that one was a historical

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case study . Um So , so interesting

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in that we don't really teach um

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research methodology here very , very

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much . But I think um possibly the

15:54.549 --> 15:56.771
students that know how to do it already

15:56.771 --> 15:59.210
when they show up um are at , at an

15:59.219 --> 16:03.219
advantage . All right .

16:03.229 --> 16:05.609
So I apologize . Some of this got cut

16:05.619 --> 16:08.700
off , but um this is the annual student

16:08.710 --> 16:10.543
survey , not my survey , this is

16:10.543 --> 16:12.266
secondary data that , that the

16:12.266 --> 16:14.950
university sends out every , every year ,

16:14.960 --> 16:18.309
something similar to this . Um We found

16:18.320 --> 16:20.153
that , you know , students , the

16:20.153 --> 16:22.098
majority students agreed that they

16:22.098 --> 16:23.931
improved their creative thinking

16:23.931 --> 16:26.059
ability at uh at command and Staff

16:26.070 --> 16:29.340
College . Um And they attributed it to ,

16:29.630 --> 16:31.630
I would say the big three that they

16:31.630 --> 16:33.741
attributed it to was their conference

16:33.741 --> 16:35.741
group , the students that they were

16:35.741 --> 16:37.908
able to discuss these topics with on a

16:37.908 --> 16:40.534
daily basis . Um exposure to the

16:40.544 --> 16:43.695
perspectives of interagency , um inter

16:43.815 --> 16:45.982
service and international students was

16:45.982 --> 16:47.982
another , was another big one . And

16:47.982 --> 16:50.960
then , and then individual research um

16:51.330 --> 16:54.530
actually cut the data so that , so that

16:54.539 --> 16:56.869
I only looked at those that , that

16:57.000 --> 16:59.309
didn't agree . Right . So , neutral ,

16:59.320 --> 17:02.059
disagree and strongly disagree . Um And

17:02.070 --> 17:04.181
the picture changes a little bit , um

17:04.181 --> 17:06.181
they're mostly focused on their own

17:06.181 --> 17:10.020
individual research . Um So

17:10.199 --> 17:13.060
one thing that's missing here is

17:13.069 --> 17:16.839
electives um later on , um

17:16.849 --> 17:19.182
through interviews and things like that ,

17:19.182 --> 17:21.127
students consistently say that the

17:21.127 --> 17:23.071
electives are the op their biggest

17:23.071 --> 17:25.569
opportunity for creativity um because

17:25.579 --> 17:29.209
they get to choose what class . Um I

17:29.219 --> 17:31.275
thought again , I thought the thesis

17:31.275 --> 17:32.997
was gonna be it , but students

17:32.997 --> 17:35.219
consistently say it's the elective , so

17:35.219 --> 17:36.886
their biggest opportunity for

17:36.886 --> 17:40.369
creativity . All right . So

17:41.630 --> 17:43.852
I keep looking back , but it's actually

17:43.852 --> 17:47.670
right here . Um So , qualitative

17:47.680 --> 17:49.736
um results from this is again , from

17:49.736 --> 17:52.939
the annual survey , you know , students

17:52.949 --> 17:55.171
are very , mostly very complimentary of

17:55.171 --> 17:58.790
the faculty um talking about how ,

17:58.800 --> 18:01.550
how great their their faculty were . So ,

18:01.560 --> 18:03.838
you know , I wanna be clear about that .

18:03.838 --> 18:06.004
We're talking about problems , right ?

18:06.004 --> 18:08.116
And so , uh and we're talking about ,

18:08.116 --> 18:10.338
you know , what , what do we need to do

18:10.338 --> 18:12.616
better , but really students were very ,

18:12.616 --> 18:14.727
very complimentary of their faculty .

18:14.727 --> 18:17.030
Um Again , they mentioned electives um

18:17.609 --> 18:20.229
for those of you that don't know . Um

18:20.449 --> 18:22.671
you know , that I mentioned at the time

18:22.671 --> 18:24.893
I did or at the time of this survey , I

18:24.893 --> 18:26.671
believe it was 41 credits for a

18:26.671 --> 18:28.727
master's degree at Command and Staff

18:28.727 --> 18:30.838
College and two of those credits were

18:30.838 --> 18:33.430
electives . Um And so , uh , and that's

18:33.439 --> 18:36.640
21 credit classes . Um So

18:38.050 --> 18:41.469
perhaps , um this suggests that

18:41.630 --> 18:43.686
either we need to find a way to , to

18:43.686 --> 18:45.741
fit more creativity into the rest of

18:45.741 --> 18:47.750
the curriculum or maybe we need to

18:47.760 --> 18:50.290
expand the , uh the electives if , if

18:50.300 --> 18:52.467
creativity is a goal because , because

18:52.467 --> 18:56.339
the students are fairly uniform in

18:56.349 --> 18:58.349
saying that the electives are where

18:58.349 --> 19:01.890
they're creative . Um war gaming . Um

19:01.900 --> 19:04.430
Some students were , were very positive

19:04.439 --> 19:06.739
about war gaming or gaming allows me to

19:06.750 --> 19:09.219
be creative . Others were not positive .

19:09.229 --> 19:11.630
They said things like , you know , the

19:11.640 --> 19:13.862
war gaming is about creating powerpoint

19:13.862 --> 19:17.800
presentations . Um So , uh something to

19:17.810 --> 19:21.640
be aware of as we war game . Um Some

19:21.650 --> 19:23.761
students said that assessment favored

19:23.761 --> 19:26.650
um conventional thinking , um not

19:26.660 --> 19:28.827
creativity , maybe that's reflected in

19:28.827 --> 19:30.920
the fact that students didn't think

19:30.930 --> 19:33.097
that the thesis was a place where they

19:33.097 --> 19:35.041
were creative um because they were

19:35.041 --> 19:37.599
afraid of taking the risk there . Um

19:38.310 --> 19:41.010
But , you know , the biggest one from

19:41.020 --> 19:43.729
the students in this survey later in

19:43.739 --> 19:47.400
faculty surveys is time . Students just

19:47.410 --> 19:49.466
said , I don't , I don't have enough

19:49.466 --> 19:51.770
time to think creatively . Um You know ,

19:51.780 --> 19:55.209
I , I read my 80 pages . I go to

19:55.219 --> 19:57.275
seminar , I talk about it and then I

19:57.275 --> 19:59.608
dated dump it and read my next 80 pages .

19:59.608 --> 20:03.250
Um that was a very common um common

20:03.260 --> 20:06.380
statement . All right . So this is

20:06.390 --> 20:09.339
shifting to my survey with the factors

20:09.349 --> 20:11.349
that I had that I had put up in the

20:11.349 --> 20:14.069
conceptual framework earlier . Um A

20:14.079 --> 20:15.857
couple of things I just want to

20:15.857 --> 20:19.380
highlight about that data . Um There's

20:19.390 --> 20:21.279
substantial agreement between the

20:21.279 --> 20:23.446
faculty and the students on the survey

20:23.459 --> 20:25.570
um which is , which is a good thing .

20:25.570 --> 20:28.699
Um Time and authoritarianism is low .

20:28.709 --> 20:30.487
So time being low indicates the

20:30.487 --> 20:33.250
students and the faculty believe that

20:33.260 --> 20:35.709
there's not enough time um to think

20:35.719 --> 20:38.530
creatively , authoritarianism being low

20:38.579 --> 20:40.770
indicates that for the most part ,

20:40.780 --> 20:42.891
students and faculty don't think that

20:42.891 --> 20:44.947
this is an authoritarian environment

20:44.947 --> 20:47.058
where they're not , they're aware and

20:47.058 --> 20:49.391
they're not uh free to think creatively .

20:49.391 --> 20:51.169
Um So that's good . Um And then

20:51.169 --> 20:53.169
students think very highly of their

20:53.169 --> 20:55.280
medic cognitive ability . I mentioned

20:55.280 --> 20:57.224
that I didn't really like the meta

20:57.224 --> 20:59.336
cognitive survey . Um The survey is a

20:59.336 --> 21:01.447
perception based survey . So it's not

21:01.447 --> 21:03.447
about , you know , your actual meta

21:03.447 --> 21:05.558
cognitive skill . It's about how good

21:05.558 --> 21:07.836
do you think you are at meta cognition ?

21:07.836 --> 21:09.947
Um So I thought they were very good .

21:09.947 --> 21:12.790
Um And then divergent thinking again ,

21:12.800 --> 21:14.856
this is mostly about the environment

21:14.856 --> 21:16.633
for divergent thinking . So the

21:16.633 --> 21:19.469
openness to new divergent ideas um is ,

21:19.479 --> 21:22.619
is high um in both , in both cases .

21:24.349 --> 21:26.859
All right . So correlations , so I

21:26.869 --> 21:29.209
tried to look at correlations between

21:29.469 --> 21:31.469
the different factors that I that I

21:31.469 --> 21:33.660
just listed . Um And there are some

21:33.670 --> 21:35.559
interesting themes that have that

21:35.559 --> 21:37.781
emerged from the correlation analysis .

21:37.781 --> 21:41.760
Um OK , so as expected ,

21:41.770 --> 21:43.159
the relationship between

21:43.159 --> 21:45.381
authoritarianism and divergent thinking

21:45.381 --> 21:48.079
is significant and negative . Um And so ,

21:48.339 --> 21:50.959
and so that's , you know , what I had

21:50.969 --> 21:53.599
expected and it's what we found . Um

21:54.050 --> 21:56.272
Additionally , the relationship between

21:56.272 --> 21:58.439
time and divergent thinking . So the ,

21:58.439 --> 22:00.606
do you have time to think creatively ?

22:00.609 --> 22:02.720
Do you think creatively ? Is there an

22:02.720 --> 22:04.942
opportunity to think creatively ? Yes ,

22:04.942 --> 22:06.831
those two things are , are uh are

22:06.831 --> 22:10.560
correlated . Um One that I was not

22:10.660 --> 22:14.060
expecting was the relationship between

22:14.069 --> 22:16.979
time . And uh here , it's two different

22:16.989 --> 22:19.045
factors , knowledge of cognition and

22:19.045 --> 22:21.267
regulation of cognition . But those are

22:21.267 --> 22:23.156
two factors , sub factors of meta

22:23.156 --> 22:25.609
cognition . I was thinking that meta

22:25.619 --> 22:27.730
cognition would be somehow related to

22:27.730 --> 22:30.530
time because as you have more time to

22:30.540 --> 22:32.596
think , this gives you the chance to

22:32.596 --> 22:34.839
reflect , think metacognitively , think

22:34.849 --> 22:37.530
about thinking essentially . Um And we

22:37.540 --> 22:39.596
didn't , we didn't find a connection

22:39.596 --> 22:41.596
there , which was , which was a bit

22:41.596 --> 22:42.818
surprising to me . Um

22:45.689 --> 22:48.300
All right . So actually , I'll go back

22:48.310 --> 22:50.199
real quick . So there's arrows to

22:50.199 --> 22:52.660
creative problem solving . Um But

22:52.670 --> 22:54.892
there's no , there's no data because uh

22:54.892 --> 22:56.739
the survey didn't cover creative

22:56.750 --> 22:59.510
problem solving . So in order to try to

22:59.520 --> 23:01.949
make up for that , I tried to look at

23:02.060 --> 23:05.530
comparisons to grades . So in this

23:05.540 --> 23:09.420
case , um I'm comparing um two

23:09.430 --> 23:11.319
different essays . One is a first

23:11.319 --> 23:13.263
semester essay and one is a second

23:13.263 --> 23:16.530
semester essay . Um 31 Bravo is from

23:16.540 --> 23:19.260
evolution of modern war . It's a future

23:19.270 --> 23:21.326
war and innovation essay . So one of

23:21.326 --> 23:23.548
the learning outcomes is supposed to be

23:23.548 --> 23:25.880
creativity . Um And then the uh 41

23:25.890 --> 23:28.119
bravo is National Security Affairs .

23:28.130 --> 23:30.430
It's a great Power competition essay or

23:30.439 --> 23:32.699
at least it was at the time . Um And

23:32.709 --> 23:34.765
one of the learning outcomes was was

23:34.765 --> 23:37.859
creativity . Um So I thought so I had

23:37.869 --> 23:39.591
students , I gave students the

23:39.591 --> 23:41.739
opportunity to provide their names on

23:41.750 --> 23:44.619
these surveys . This was optional . Um

23:44.630 --> 23:46.780
27 students actually provided their

23:46.790 --> 23:49.020
names . And so I was then able to

23:49.030 --> 23:52.339
compare the those students survey

23:52.349 --> 23:55.099
responses to their grades on these two

23:55.109 --> 23:58.609
different um essays as well as their

23:58.619 --> 24:01.900
GPA for the first semester . And um

24:02.650 --> 24:05.849
if they were part of the QEP evaluation ,

24:05.890 --> 24:08.510
what score did they get on the QEP ? Um

24:08.520 --> 24:10.742
And so the sample size for the QEP went

24:10.742 --> 24:14.609
even even further down only 16 . Um

24:15.229 --> 24:18.630
So again , the sample size is very low ,

24:18.819 --> 24:22.030
right ? And I partly made up for that

24:22.040 --> 24:25.819
by um sort of lowering the threshold

24:25.829 --> 24:28.589
for for significance . So , you know ,

24:28.599 --> 24:30.766
take it with a grain of salt . Um This

24:30.766 --> 24:33.030
is pretty advanced statistics to do for

24:33.040 --> 24:36.900
such a low , a low sample size . Um But

24:37.189 --> 24:39.750
um some interesting things . Um

24:41.160 --> 24:43.199
so again , as expected ,

24:43.209 --> 24:45.989
authoritarianism was actually um

24:46.000 --> 24:48.222
significantly and negatively correlated

24:48.222 --> 24:50.389
to two of the two of the evaluations .

24:50.540 --> 24:52.873
So that's , that's a good thing , right ?

24:52.873 --> 24:55.390
It suggests that perhaps we're not

24:55.400 --> 24:57.739
rewarding conformity in our , in our

24:57.750 --> 25:01.650
grading . Um , um ,

25:01.670 --> 25:05.530
suddenly time was significantly and

25:05.540 --> 25:08.869
negatively related to , uh , grades on

25:08.880 --> 25:10.880
those essays , which is interesting

25:10.880 --> 25:14.709
because they're timed essays . Um , but

25:15.060 --> 25:17.290
I would have expected time to be

25:17.300 --> 25:19.244
positively correlated . Like I had

25:19.244 --> 25:21.411
enough time . Therefore I got a better

25:21.411 --> 25:24.949
grade . Um , and then students who said ,

25:24.959 --> 25:26.903
well , I didn't have enough time .

25:26.903 --> 25:29.126
That's why I got a bad grade . Um , and

25:29.126 --> 25:31.015
that's actually not the , not the

25:31.015 --> 25:34.609
pattern that we found . Um actually ,

25:34.849 --> 25:38.060
uh basically it was the opposite of

25:38.069 --> 25:40.810
that . So it suggests that maybe time

25:40.819 --> 25:44.420
is not an excuse , right ? So , so the

25:44.430 --> 25:46.430
student that says , well , I didn't

25:46.430 --> 25:48.652
have enough time . Therefore , my grade

25:48.652 --> 25:50.819
was bad . Maybe that student is making

25:50.819 --> 25:52.819
an excuse , but that's actually not

25:52.819 --> 25:55.041
what we found . We found the opposite .

25:55.041 --> 25:57.152
So maybe that's suggest that the most

25:57.152 --> 25:59.374
creative thinkers , the people that are

25:59.374 --> 26:01.597
putting the most into these assignments

26:01.597 --> 26:03.763
and getting the best grades also think

26:03.763 --> 26:03.589
that they don't have enough time

26:03.689 --> 26:05.856
because they're , they're trying to do

26:05.856 --> 26:08.170
so much , right ? It's a , it was an

26:08.180 --> 26:10.236
interesting , an interesting finding

26:10.236 --> 26:14.199
for , for me . Um And then the

26:14.209 --> 26:16.265
one that was unexpected is divergent

26:16.265 --> 26:18.660
thinking , it didn't really affect uh

26:18.670 --> 26:21.349
the grades . Um And maybe that's just a

26:21.359 --> 26:23.900
product of , you know , low sample

26:23.910 --> 26:27.359
sizes . Um Maybe it's a product of this

26:27.369 --> 26:29.425
divergent thinking measure is mostly

26:29.425 --> 26:31.579
about the , the environment for

26:31.589 --> 26:33.645
divergent thinking and not about the

26:33.645 --> 26:35.922
individual students divergent thinking .

26:35.969 --> 26:38.080
So that could , that could be part of

26:38.080 --> 26:41.739
the part of the issue as well . All

26:41.750 --> 26:43.639
right . So I also did qualitative

26:43.639 --> 26:47.550
research , um mostly interviews but

26:47.560 --> 26:49.530
also some questions , open ended

26:49.540 --> 26:51.770
questions on the surveys . And this is

26:51.780 --> 26:54.439
just a excerpt from my , from my code

26:54.449 --> 26:56.420
book . Again , time for both the

26:56.430 --> 26:58.699
faculty and the students was a major

26:58.709 --> 27:02.020
factor . Um you know ,

27:02.030 --> 27:05.319
faculty , for instance , this faculty

27:05.329 --> 27:07.551
quote is interesting to me because they

27:07.551 --> 27:09.385
sort of say that in a government

27:09.385 --> 27:11.607
environment we expect people to do , be

27:11.607 --> 27:13.551
doing things all the time . Um And

27:13.551 --> 27:15.551
maybe that's not the best for , for

27:15.551 --> 27:17.551
creativity , you know , but I don't

27:17.551 --> 27:19.718
actually think that's just unique to a

27:19.718 --> 27:21.885
government environment , right ? Um We

27:21.885 --> 27:25.699
have a culture of busy . Um and

27:25.709 --> 27:28.020
then a , again , something similar to

27:28.030 --> 27:31.050
the quote before from the students . Um

27:32.060 --> 27:34.004
you know , they don't have time to

27:34.004 --> 27:36.116
digest the reading materials to think

27:36.116 --> 27:37.838
from one assignment to another

27:37.838 --> 27:40.270
assignment , et cetera . Um Another one

27:40.280 --> 27:42.391
locust to the problem . So this is an

27:42.391 --> 27:44.500
example , military faculty because

27:44.510 --> 27:46.699
that's what I thought would come out .

27:46.709 --> 27:49.229
You know , I , if authoritarianism is a

27:49.239 --> 27:51.017
problem for , for at least some

27:51.017 --> 27:53.449
students , um it's probably the mill

27:53.579 --> 27:55.579
fact , it's probably the lieutenant

27:55.579 --> 27:57.746
colonel telling the major , you know ,

27:57.746 --> 27:59.746
this is what you , this is what you

27:59.746 --> 28:01.801
should believe . Um In fact , that's

28:01.801 --> 28:03.912
actually not what , what I found . Um

28:03.912 --> 28:06.640
there was a fairly even distribution .

28:06.650 --> 28:08.872
So some said it's actually not the mill

28:08.872 --> 28:11.300
fact , it's the SIV fact . Um But some

28:11.310 --> 28:13.366
said it's actually not the faculty ,

28:13.366 --> 28:17.250
it's the fellow students . Um And so ,

28:17.449 --> 28:19.689
and so , II , I don't know , that was

28:19.699 --> 28:21.921
something that I didn't , I didn't , uh

28:21.921 --> 28:24.369
actually expect . Um And the next slide

28:24.380 --> 28:26.436
has a quote that I , that I think is

28:26.436 --> 28:29.410
pretty funny about that . Um So this is

28:29.569 --> 28:32.680
uh slide about divergence , but this

28:32.689 --> 28:34.880
quote over here is funny to me because

28:34.890 --> 28:37.112
it's like , it's an authoritarian quote

28:37.112 --> 28:39.279
about how we should not have author or

28:39.279 --> 28:41.279
how we should not attempt to remove

28:41.279 --> 28:43.390
authoritarianism from the classroom .

28:43.390 --> 28:45.729
Um So the removal of rank is a childish

28:45.739 --> 28:47.839
and cowardly way to approach having

28:47.849 --> 28:50.500
open and professional discussions . Um

28:50.670 --> 28:52.837
This idea of removal of rank , I think

28:52.837 --> 28:54.837
some of the other PM E institutions

28:54.920 --> 28:56.864
wear civilian clothes during the ,

28:56.864 --> 28:59.031
during the class . It's an idea that's

28:59.031 --> 29:02.939
circulated around um here at MC U ,

29:03.030 --> 29:05.579
not our current practice . Um Some of

29:05.589 --> 29:07.811
the students uh thought that this was a

29:07.811 --> 29:09.589
great idea , it would encourage

29:09.589 --> 29:12.709
creativity . Um But

29:13.199 --> 29:15.699
obviously one student thought it was a

29:15.709 --> 29:19.310
childish and cowardly idea . Um But

29:19.709 --> 29:21.880
uh uh you know , I think the fact that

29:21.890 --> 29:23.668
the locus of the problem is not

29:23.668 --> 29:25.723
necessarily military faculty sort of

29:25.723 --> 29:28.300
suggests that maybe um it's not really

29:28.310 --> 29:30.588
the rank that we're that we're wearing .

29:32.530 --> 29:34.697
All right . So , summary of findings .

29:34.709 --> 29:37.900
Um So really , you know ,

29:38.239 --> 29:40.461
divergent thinking , I was a little bit

29:40.461 --> 29:42.572
disappointed . I expected to see more

29:42.572 --> 29:44.628
about divergent thinking . It didn't

29:44.628 --> 29:46.795
really come out in the research , um ,

29:46.795 --> 29:48.461
authoritarianism did come out

29:48.461 --> 29:50.572
essentially how I had , how I thought

29:50.572 --> 29:52.569
it was going to , um , it was

29:52.579 --> 29:55.670
negatively related to grades . Although

29:55.680 --> 29:57.660
in general people felt like the

29:57.670 --> 30:00.670
authoritarian attitudes were low . Um ,

30:01.150 --> 30:03.609
and it was highly dependent on the

30:03.619 --> 30:06.260
individual faculty member and the , and

30:06.270 --> 30:10.020
the students um student knowledge , um ,

30:10.030 --> 30:12.989
students in that survey , they , they

30:13.000 --> 30:15.056
felt like their knowledge was really

30:15.056 --> 30:17.300
high . Um And so we didn't really see

30:17.310 --> 30:19.643
much of an effect for student knowledge ,

30:19.969 --> 30:22.709
um whether it be research knowledge or

30:22.719 --> 30:24.775
knowledge of the content of military

30:24.775 --> 30:26.849
history or something like that . So

30:26.859 --> 30:29.069
time , time was the big one

30:30.119 --> 30:32.880
consistently across , especially the

30:32.890 --> 30:36.670
qualitative um research is that , is

30:36.680 --> 30:38.791
that students basically , they didn't

30:38.791 --> 30:41.013
think that they had enough time and the

30:41.013 --> 30:43.236
faculty agreed that there wasn't enough

30:43.236 --> 30:45.760
time . Uh motivation didn't , didn't

30:45.770 --> 30:48.959
really uh factor in um and meta

30:48.969 --> 30:50.802
cognition . Again , the students

30:50.802 --> 30:53.280
thought that it , that it was high . Um

30:53.849 --> 30:56.219
But it didn't really , it , it , it

30:56.229 --> 30:59.150
didn't really come out um perhaps

30:59.160 --> 31:03.030
because of the measure . Um So some

31:03.040 --> 31:05.709
interesting things that , so this

31:05.719 --> 31:07.775
presentation is primarily just about

31:07.775 --> 31:10.030
the needs assessment . Um later on , we

31:10.040 --> 31:12.630
did an intervention um and we focused

31:12.640 --> 31:16.530
it on time um and also sort of

31:16.540 --> 31:20.069
um structured reflection , um which is

31:20.079 --> 31:22.023
sort of what we heard , we've just

31:22.023 --> 31:24.246
heard in the keynote about , you know ,

31:24.246 --> 31:26.412
developing creativity skills . And one

31:26.412 --> 31:28.357
of those creativity skills is , is

31:28.357 --> 31:30.890
reflection . Um and so some interesting

31:30.900 --> 31:33.050
research that , that we found is the

31:33.060 --> 31:35.393
difference between local and far search .

31:35.393 --> 31:37.560
So local search is like , it's like

31:37.569 --> 31:39.979
useless for a tricycle . Right . Um ,

31:39.989 --> 31:43.209
well , it's a , it's a toy and , uh ,

31:43.390 --> 31:45.560
you know , it's a , uh , decoration ,

31:45.569 --> 31:47.458
right . That's basically , it's a

31:47.458 --> 31:49.513
decoration because it's a toy . Um ,

31:49.520 --> 31:53.329
that's a local idea . Um , it's a bomb .

31:53.339 --> 31:56.469
That's a far idea . Right . And so mind

31:56.479 --> 31:59.680
wandering , you know , thinking about ,

31:59.689 --> 32:03.089
you know , random things is good for

32:03.099 --> 32:05.569
local search . Um But structured

32:05.579 --> 32:08.430
reflection is good for far , for far

32:08.439 --> 32:10.739
search , which is probably what we're ,

32:10.750 --> 32:14.069
what we're aiming for . Um This next

32:14.079 --> 32:16.301
one , uh guided reflection at the Coast

32:16.301 --> 32:18.357
Guard Academy . I , I think that's a

32:18.357 --> 32:20.523
typo . It's not actually the academy ,

32:20.523 --> 32:22.635
but it's a Coast Guard study . It was

32:22.635 --> 32:24.690
published in the journal of military

32:24.690 --> 32:26.579
learning . And I think it was the

32:26.579 --> 32:28.746
subject of a previous conference . And

32:28.746 --> 32:30.912
so o conference . Yeah , I'm getting a

32:30.912 --> 32:32.912
nod . So , so yes , that was a very

32:32.912 --> 32:32.839
interesting study because they talked

32:32.944 --> 32:35.474
about uh vertical versus horizontal um

32:35.484 --> 32:37.885
development . So horizontal being like

32:37.895 --> 32:40.062
learn reflecting on the content , what

32:40.062 --> 32:42.145
did I learn ? Um And then vertical

32:42.155 --> 32:44.099
being essentially like , how did I

32:44.099 --> 32:46.266
change ? How did my thinking change as

32:46.266 --> 32:48.377
a person ? And so we aim for that for

32:48.377 --> 32:52.270
that vertical um reflection . And that

32:52.280 --> 32:54.224
was a intermediate level education

32:54.224 --> 32:57.160
study similar to um command and staff ,

32:57.170 --> 32:59.392
which is why it's important that that's

32:59.392 --> 33:02.420
a typo . Um The us military academy has ,

33:02.430 --> 33:04.652
has an interesting study also published

33:04.652 --> 33:06.652
in journal of military learning . I

33:06.652 --> 33:08.660
think also um presented at this

33:08.670 --> 33:12.000
conference in a previous year um where

33:12.010 --> 33:13.954
they worked with students on their

33:13.954 --> 33:16.449
thesis . Um These are undergraduate

33:16.459 --> 33:19.760
thesis in this case . Um but group um

33:19.770 --> 33:22.140
group reflection and that's a , that's

33:22.150 --> 33:24.859
a very interesting study . Um If , if

33:24.869 --> 33:27.036
anyone wanna look , wants to look that

33:27.036 --> 33:29.202
up neuroscience , there was a question

33:29.202 --> 33:31.147
about neuroscience earlier , but I

33:31.150 --> 33:34.349
don't think Stacey's here . Um This is

33:34.359 --> 33:37.209
an interesting neuroscience uh finding

33:37.219 --> 33:40.280
alpha synchronization . Uh for a long

33:40.290 --> 33:42.512
time , we apparently thought that alpha

33:42.512 --> 33:44.512
synchronization was , was basically

33:44.512 --> 33:46.790
what your brain does when it's resting .

33:46.790 --> 33:50.760
Um And this series of studies um

33:50.770 --> 33:53.050
basically turned that on its head and

33:53.060 --> 33:55.282
said that actually , when you're , when

33:55.282 --> 33:57.530
you're thinking creatively um with a

33:57.540 --> 34:00.760
far search , especially um your brain

34:00.770 --> 34:02.826
goes into this alpha synchronization

34:02.826 --> 34:04.826
process . So it actually looks like

34:04.826 --> 34:06.881
resting um neurologically , it looks

34:06.881 --> 34:09.214
like what we thought resting looks like .

34:09.214 --> 34:11.385
Um But actually , maybe it's top down

34:11.395 --> 34:14.155
control , maybe it's like filtering out

34:14.324 --> 34:16.102
um some of the distractions and

34:16.102 --> 34:18.665
focusing and focusing in on a , on a

34:18.675 --> 34:21.185
topic , you know , one problem with

34:21.195 --> 34:23.417
neuroscience research and education and

34:23.417 --> 34:25.639
especially with this study is that it's

34:25.639 --> 34:27.584
a incredibly unrealistic setting ,

34:27.584 --> 34:29.879
right ? So it's a lab with microbes on

34:29.889 --> 34:32.189
your head and time scales of like 20

34:32.199 --> 34:34.255
seconds to think of ideas and things

34:34.255 --> 34:36.366
like that . So it's , you know , just

34:36.366 --> 34:39.260
suggestive of of something that , that

34:39.270 --> 34:41.270
might apply to the real World , but

34:41.270 --> 34:45.260
it's an interesting study . Um So

34:45.270 --> 34:47.070
further research , um

34:49.229 --> 34:51.451
I'm hoping that this can be some of the

34:51.451 --> 34:53.229
stuff that we talk about in the

34:53.239 --> 34:55.295
discussions . Although I'm of course

34:55.295 --> 34:57.406
willing to talk about other things in

34:57.406 --> 35:00.580
the , in the discussion . Um One thing

35:00.590 --> 35:03.729
that I didn't really get to um explore

35:03.739 --> 35:06.090
further in my dissertation was this

35:06.100 --> 35:10.020
concept of student knowledge . Um So do

35:10.030 --> 35:12.141
the students have enough reading ? Do

35:12.141 --> 35:14.909
they have too much reading ? Um You

35:14.919 --> 35:17.610
know , we did or I should say command

35:17.620 --> 35:19.564
and staff did reduce the amount of

35:19.564 --> 35:23.310
reading um last academic year . So

35:23.320 --> 35:25.750
after , after this portion of the study ,

35:26.060 --> 35:28.469
um and for the most part , folks said

35:29.360 --> 35:31.304
students were still getting enough

35:31.304 --> 35:33.082
content , right ? To , to think

35:33.082 --> 35:36.800
creatively , the I will say the counter

35:36.810 --> 35:40.179
opinion to that was um amongst some of

35:40.189 --> 35:43.449
the history faculty um to where they

35:43.459 --> 35:45.681
didn't think that the students were now

35:45.681 --> 35:47.929
getting the , the , you know ,

35:48.510 --> 35:50.510
diversity of perspectives that they

35:50.510 --> 35:53.459
could get um from the reading because

35:53.580 --> 35:55.729
they're just , we gave the students

35:55.739 --> 35:57.906
more time , we decreased the reading ,

35:57.906 --> 36:00.000
but that came at a cost of student

36:00.010 --> 36:03.540
knowledge . Um And then empirical

36:03.550 --> 36:05.840
research methodology , it's just

36:05.850 --> 36:08.330
something that I'm certainly interested

36:08.340 --> 36:12.320
in . Um having been a , you know , I

36:12.330 --> 36:14.949
was a philosophy major in college and I

36:14.959 --> 36:17.439
got a master's degree in philosophy and

36:17.449 --> 36:19.227
then I got a master's degree in

36:19.227 --> 36:21.393
International Relations . And I , that

36:21.393 --> 36:23.505
international relations . One was the

36:23.505 --> 36:25.616
first one when I was actually exposed

36:25.616 --> 36:27.727
to empirical research methodology , I

36:27.727 --> 36:29.838
didn't understand it at all . I , I ,

36:29.838 --> 36:32.005
you know , I , I finished the course ,

36:32.005 --> 36:33.949
I , I figured out how to calculate

36:33.949 --> 36:36.060
means and , and standard deviations .

36:36.060 --> 36:38.227
Um but I didn't understand it at all .

36:38.227 --> 36:40.449
Then I went to uh Michigan , the Marine

36:40.449 --> 36:42.616
Corps paid for me to go to Michigan to

36:42.616 --> 36:44.671
do a master's degree . And I studied

36:44.671 --> 36:46.782
educational research methodology . Um

36:46.782 --> 36:49.005
And it opened like a whole new world to

36:49.005 --> 36:51.725
me . Um Because I finally understood

36:51.735 --> 36:54.385
what was behind the stats and the , and

36:54.395 --> 36:56.395
the interviews and all this kind of

36:56.395 --> 36:59.310
stuff . Um And so part of me wants to

36:59.320 --> 37:01.098
think that maybe we ought to be

37:01.098 --> 37:03.850
offering that to , to uh the students

37:03.860 --> 37:05.909
here . Um But

37:07.429 --> 37:09.610
balancing that with , they're doing a

37:09.620 --> 37:12.929
lot of credits already . Um So , so ,

37:12.939 --> 37:15.530
so how do you balance those things ? Um

37:16.899 --> 37:19.121
Another thing that we didn't , I didn't

37:19.121 --> 37:21.010
really get to explore was teams ,

37:21.010 --> 37:22.788
creativity of teams versus just

37:22.788 --> 37:24.955
creativity of individuals . How do you

37:24.955 --> 37:27.989
lead a team that's creative ? Um You

37:28.000 --> 37:30.399
know , what are the factors that go

37:30.409 --> 37:32.699
into making , making creative teams ?

37:32.850 --> 37:36.090
Um Most of our assignments here are ,

37:36.330 --> 37:38.552
you know , individual based for obvious

37:38.552 --> 37:41.290
reasons . Um But I , I'd be interested

37:41.300 --> 37:43.899
in thinking about group projects and

37:43.909 --> 37:47.649
group creativity . Um relatedly ,

37:47.659 --> 37:50.000
thesis , creativity . I still have this

37:50.010 --> 37:52.177
personal opinion that the thesis ought

37:52.177 --> 37:54.232
to be the place where you can be the

37:54.232 --> 37:56.454
most creative because you have the most

37:56.454 --> 37:58.560
freedom . Um And so perhaps we could

37:58.570 --> 38:01.030
build something into the thesis process

38:01.169 --> 38:04.479
to he to help encourage creativity . Um

38:04.939 --> 38:06.883
I mentioned expanding the elective

38:06.883 --> 38:10.580
curriculum . Um You know , again ,

38:11.020 --> 38:13.750
it comes at a cost , um you know ,

38:13.760 --> 38:15.760
there's 41 credits , I think it's a

38:15.760 --> 38:17.927
little bit lower right now , but , but

38:17.927 --> 38:20.540
back then it was 41 credits . Um You

38:20.550 --> 38:22.772
know , so if you expand the electives ,

38:22.772 --> 38:26.300
what do you cut ? Um But students were ,

38:26.310 --> 38:28.088
have consistently said that the

38:28.088 --> 38:30.143
electives are where they're the most

38:30.143 --> 38:33.020
creative um measuring meta cognition .

38:33.280 --> 38:36.209
Um You know , I talked about the survey

38:36.580 --> 38:38.810
and my dissatisfaction with the

38:38.820 --> 38:40.987
perception measure of meta cognition .

38:40.987 --> 38:43.820
So perhaps there's a way to look at

38:44.070 --> 38:47.080
more qualitative research um analyzing

38:47.090 --> 38:49.530
journals , things like that um that

38:49.540 --> 38:52.010
might help us to get at the , the

38:52.020 --> 38:53.964
concept of meta cognition , better

38:53.964 --> 38:56.131
actual meta cognition , not perception

38:56.131 --> 38:58.659
of , of meta cognition . Um And then

38:58.669 --> 39:01.209
connecting the PM E community . Uh You

39:01.219 --> 39:03.709
know , I'd really like to hear from you

39:03.719 --> 39:06.290
all things that you're doing also , you

39:06.300 --> 39:09.810
know , if , if uh anyone would like to

39:09.820 --> 39:12.429
look at my survey , see if it applies

39:12.439 --> 39:16.270
to your context , um help me develop it ,

39:16.280 --> 39:18.613
make it better , all that kind of stuff .

39:18.613 --> 39:20.724
I'd , I'd love to be involved in , in

39:20.724 --> 39:22.613
that kind of work across the PM E

39:22.613 --> 39:24.447
community or really the military

39:24.447 --> 39:27.010
education community , I should say . Um

39:27.310 --> 39:29.143
That's it , that's uh that's the

39:29.143 --> 39:32.050
presentation Um I'm ready for questions

39:32.060 --> 39:33.060
now .

39:38.239 --> 39:40.350
All right , thanks , Colonel Sparks .

39:40.350 --> 39:42.683
We'll take a few questions from in here .

39:42.683 --> 39:44.906
Uh Then we're gonna check online to see

39:44.906 --> 39:44.629
if there's any questions there and then

39:44.639 --> 39:46.917
we'll do a , before we get out of here ,

39:46.917 --> 39:48.972
we'll do a schedule reminder . But I

39:48.972 --> 39:50.861
think we were gonna try doing the

39:50.861 --> 39:50.659
microphones on the table if you have a

39:50.669 --> 39:52.836
question in here . So I believe as you

39:52.836 --> 39:54.947
said , don't be childish and cowardly

39:54.947 --> 39:57.002
bring your questions forward , right

39:57.002 --> 39:58.002
questions .

40:05.449 --> 40:07.282
I know I could ask this any time

40:07.282 --> 40:09.393
because you work just down the hall .

40:09.393 --> 40:11.449
Um But I'm really interested in what

40:11.449 --> 40:13.959
you said about perception of creativity

40:13.969 --> 40:16.500
in electives and how there may be some

40:16.510 --> 40:19.350
differences in student mindsets there .

40:19.790 --> 40:23.030
And I'm wondering what you might think

40:23.040 --> 40:26.699
about changing the perception of core

40:26.709 --> 40:30.060
curriculum to align with that finding .

40:30.070 --> 40:32.126
Is there something that we can do to

40:32.126 --> 40:34.181
offer students more choice and still

40:34.181 --> 40:36.939
get them J PM E complete ? Yeah . So my

40:36.949 --> 40:39.080
fir my current role , I'm I work with

40:39.090 --> 40:41.312
the Command of Staff distance education

40:41.312 --> 40:43.719
program which has the same student

40:43.729 --> 40:45.639
learning outcomes as the resident

40:45.649 --> 40:48.239
program , um same program outcomes as

40:48.250 --> 40:52.050
well . Um And it's

40:52.060 --> 40:54.116
significantly less contact hours . I

40:54.116 --> 40:56.282
don't actually know that the number of

40:56.282 --> 40:58.449
contact hours , but it's significantly

40:58.449 --> 41:00.671
less contact hours and it's essentially

41:00.671 --> 41:02.893
a different curriculum . It's not , you

41:02.893 --> 41:04.838
know , a shortened version of each

41:04.838 --> 41:06.893
Resident Command and staff college ,

41:06.893 --> 41:09.116
it's a different curriculum . Um And so

41:09.116 --> 41:11.171
I think there's an opportunity , you

41:11.171 --> 41:13.171
know , if we want students to learn

41:13.171 --> 41:15.282
about , I don't know , let's just say

41:15.282 --> 41:18.064
joint war fighting um where they could

41:18.074 --> 41:20.875
study a different aspect of joint war

41:20.885 --> 41:22.607
fighting in a different , in a

41:22.607 --> 41:24.985
different elective . Um or maybe at

41:24.995 --> 41:26.939
this , in this point , it's not an

41:26.939 --> 41:29.106
elective , it's like a concentration ,

41:29.106 --> 41:30.995
right . So you , so you develop a

41:30.995 --> 41:33.425
concentration on , well , uh various

41:33.435 --> 41:35.435
different con concentrations . So I

41:35.435 --> 41:39.100
think there's certainly we can ,

41:39.110 --> 41:41.250
we have proven that we can meet the

41:41.260 --> 41:43.482
same student learning outcomes and same

41:43.482 --> 41:45.371
program outcomes with a different

41:45.371 --> 41:47.538
curriculum . And so I think that ought

41:47.538 --> 41:51.399
to give us um the , the

41:51.409 --> 41:53.576
clue that we can experiment with the ,

41:53.576 --> 41:55.798
with the curriculum a little bit more .

41:55.798 --> 41:58.879
Another , you know , question might be

41:58.889 --> 42:01.209
uh one of our student learning outcomes

42:01.219 --> 42:03.639
is basically to be able to apply

42:03.649 --> 42:06.479
military theory to the um enduring

42:06.489 --> 42:08.656
nature and changing character of war .

42:08.656 --> 42:10.711
Like you could do a lot of different

42:10.711 --> 42:12.489
classes and talk about a lot of

42:12.489 --> 42:14.600
different theorists and still achieve

42:14.600 --> 42:16.767
that student learning outcome . Um And

42:16.767 --> 42:19.629
so I think , um I think there's room

42:19.639 --> 42:21.929
for concentration of course , then it

42:21.939 --> 42:24.189
becomes , you know , a , a practical

42:24.199 --> 42:28.179
matter of um how many uh you

42:28.189 --> 42:30.300
know , faculty that you have to teach

42:30.300 --> 42:32.411
these courses , alternative courses ,

42:32.411 --> 42:34.522
develop these courses , all that kind

42:34.522 --> 42:36.578
of stuff . But I will say that every

42:36.578 --> 42:38.689
year we offer faculty the opportunity

42:38.689 --> 42:40.689
to do these electives . And there's

42:40.689 --> 42:42.540
like an overwhelming offering of

42:42.550 --> 42:44.570
electives . We don't have enough

42:44.580 --> 42:47.030
students to take them all . Um , so it

42:47.040 --> 42:49.399
seems like there might be interest in

42:49.409 --> 42:50.409
doing that .

42:54.419 --> 42:56.419
Yeah . I wonder if you could , uh ,

42:56.419 --> 42:58.530
describe the confidence that you have

42:58.530 --> 43:00.919
and , uh , the students understanding

43:00.929 --> 43:03.979
of what you , how you define creativity

43:04.070 --> 43:06.181
because it appears to me that if they

43:06.181 --> 43:08.403
have a perception that they can be more

43:08.403 --> 43:10.570
creative than electives , perhaps what

43:10.570 --> 43:12.626
they're really communicating is they

43:12.626 --> 43:15.179
perceive more choice or more freedom as

43:15.189 --> 43:18.169
opposed to how you measure creativity .

43:18.179 --> 43:20.989
A lot of times we can be imprecise in

43:21.000 --> 43:23.050
the words that we use to express a

43:23.060 --> 43:26.010
certain thoughts or perceptions . Yeah ,

43:26.020 --> 43:29.159
that's a , that's a good point . Um The

43:29.169 --> 43:31.391
way that I asked this question and this

43:31.391 --> 43:33.929
was later in the process . Uh

43:35.510 --> 43:37.719
I took a , I took a look at the thesis

43:37.889 --> 43:39.810
and this is not part of this

43:39.820 --> 43:42.042
presentation , but I took a look at the

43:42.042 --> 43:44.699
thesis and tried to see if there was an

43:44.709 --> 43:46.729
improvement in the thesis . So

43:46.739 --> 43:48.909
comparing this year's or why I should

43:48.919 --> 43:52.219
say last year's uh A Y 23 thesis , a

43:52.229 --> 43:55.810
sample to A Y 20 two's thesis . Um

43:57.040 --> 43:59.350
And you know , the sample average was

43:59.360 --> 44:01.320
higher in A Y 23 but that doesn't

44:01.330 --> 44:03.163
really mean anything because the

44:03.163 --> 44:05.274
difference wasn't big enough to , you

44:05.274 --> 44:06.941
know , establish uh establish

44:06.941 --> 44:10.139
significance . Um And perhaps that's a

44:10.149 --> 44:13.020
sample size thing . Um We looked at 22

44:13.030 --> 44:16.449
CCS from each year . Um So ,

44:17.290 --> 44:20.229
so that part of the research , I asked

44:20.239 --> 44:22.989
the students , you know , what did they

44:23.000 --> 44:25.050
think was the connection between ,

44:25.300 --> 44:28.570
between creativity and the thesis ? And

44:28.580 --> 44:30.979
they said there's no connection . Um ,

44:31.659 --> 44:33.881
they also said there's no connection to

44:33.881 --> 44:35.826
the rest of the curriculum . I , I

44:35.826 --> 44:38.169
disagree heartily . Um , um , but

44:38.179 --> 44:40.401
that's what they said and they , and so

44:40.409 --> 44:42.520
it wasn't me asking about electives .

44:42.520 --> 44:45.050
It was mostly them asking them saying ,

44:45.919 --> 44:49.320
you know , the core curriculum a and

44:49.330 --> 44:51.108
the thesis are not connected to

44:51.108 --> 44:53.274
creativity , the elective itself , the

44:53.280 --> 44:55.550
electives are connected to creativity .

44:55.719 --> 44:58.060
And this is because like you said , I

44:58.070 --> 45:01.010
think it's because they get to choose

45:01.020 --> 45:03.340
what , what uh topic that they're

45:03.350 --> 45:05.406
studying . Um But they're , but they

45:05.406 --> 45:07.461
are also still studying in a group ,

45:07.461 --> 45:09.406
right ? As opposed to the thesis ,

45:09.406 --> 45:11.517
which is an individual effort for the

45:11.517 --> 45:14.189
most part . Um So , I don't know , I

45:14.199 --> 45:16.360
mean , yeah , so I didn't define

45:16.370 --> 45:18.830
creativity for them and I didn't even

45:18.840 --> 45:20.689
specifically ask them , are you

45:20.699 --> 45:22.755
creative in the electives ? But they

45:22.755 --> 45:24.921
sort of volunteered that information ,

45:24.921 --> 45:27.143
like when I asked , are you creative in

45:27.143 --> 45:29.255
the thesis ? And they said no , but I

45:29.255 --> 45:32.820
am creative in the elective . Um So if

45:32.830 --> 45:34.941
I could just follow up , that appears

45:34.941 --> 45:36.830
to me that there is an unequal uh

45:36.830 --> 45:39.110
understanding or view of what

45:39.120 --> 45:41.389
creativity actually is , is what I'm

45:41.399 --> 45:44.189
hearing uh from your description . Yeah ,

45:44.199 --> 45:46.143
I , yes , I think , I think you're

45:46.143 --> 45:49.870
probably right and , and yeah , um

45:50.239 --> 45:53.280
this idea , well , we think of

45:53.290 --> 45:56.689
creativity as you know , art , right ?

45:56.699 --> 46:00.469
Um Or maybe creative writing , um

46:00.699 --> 46:04.629
um music , et cetera . Um I'm trying

46:04.639 --> 46:08.510
to expand that beyond , you know , the

46:08.520 --> 46:10.810
arts , right . It's a , it's about ,

46:10.840 --> 46:13.560
you know , finding a problem ,

46:13.570 --> 46:15.626
analyzing the problem , presenting a

46:15.626 --> 46:17.469
solution , designing a plan to

46:17.479 --> 46:20.929
implement that solution . Um And

46:20.939 --> 46:23.310
so it's , it's not about like

46:23.320 --> 46:25.431
generating something out of nothing ,

46:25.431 --> 46:28.919
right ? It's about , it's about , uh um

46:29.780 --> 46:32.159
you know , basically bringing ideas

46:32.169 --> 46:34.280
together and , and creating something

46:34.280 --> 46:36.629
new and maybe that's maybe that's a

46:36.639 --> 46:37.750
disconnect . Yeah ,

46:41.129 --> 46:43.351
thanks so much , Colonel Sparks just to

46:43.360 --> 46:45.370
um follow up not only to Lieutenant

46:45.620 --> 46:47.590
Colonel Gordy's point , but to the

46:47.600 --> 46:49.656
keynote , Doctor Puccio , I was very

46:49.656 --> 46:52.129
intrigued when he said his uh master's

46:52.139 --> 46:55.260
program in creativity is an m si was

46:55.270 --> 46:57.492
shocked . I'm like , what do you mean ?

46:57.492 --> 46:59.603
It's a science , not an art , right ?

46:59.603 --> 47:01.770
That , that to me was , I wish I could

47:01.770 --> 47:03.881
have asked that question . Um I'll go

47:03.881 --> 47:05.770
back but um just to offer up um a

47:05.770 --> 47:08.719
thought for the group . And so an

47:08.729 --> 47:11.229
anecdotal definition of creativity by

47:11.239 --> 47:13.360
Steve Jobs is that creativity is just

47:13.370 --> 47:16.500
connecting things . So our previous

47:16.510 --> 47:18.566
command and staff college director ,

47:18.566 --> 47:21.010
Colonel Brad Tippett , um he had the

47:21.020 --> 47:23.076
initiative that he had several of us

47:23.076 --> 47:25.959
implement um to require student

47:25.969 --> 47:28.620
reflection prompts into every single

47:28.629 --> 47:30.796
one of our lesson cards which are like

47:30.796 --> 47:32.907
our , our mini syllabi . Um And , and

47:32.909 --> 47:36.280
with Colonel Sparks um support , we

47:36.290 --> 47:38.401
were really deliberate in the kind of

47:38.401 --> 47:40.512
prompts we gave faculty sort of a , a

47:40.512 --> 47:42.623
bank of resources to choose from with

47:42.623 --> 47:44.846
these reflection prompts . So we really

47:44.846 --> 47:46.901
emphasize connection , right ? So we

47:46.901 --> 47:49.123
would ask students pre and post reading

47:49.123 --> 47:51.330
reflection questions and they're often

47:51.340 --> 47:53.507
like , how did what you read for today

47:53.507 --> 47:55.562
connect to what you read last week .

47:55.562 --> 47:57.562
How did what you discuss in seminar

47:57.562 --> 47:59.840
today ? Connect to your MS your , your ,

47:59.840 --> 48:01.951
your , your long research paper . How

48:01.951 --> 48:04.062
did something you discussed for today

48:04.062 --> 48:06.007
connect to a larger sociopolitical

48:06.007 --> 48:08.118
issue in current debate , et cetera ,

48:08.118 --> 48:10.340
et cetera . So I think there's a really

48:10.340 --> 48:12.396
meaningful connection here no matter

48:12.396 --> 48:14.618
how you define creativity , but in , in

48:14.618 --> 48:16.340
student learning um in student

48:16.340 --> 48:18.340
reflection and hopefully an overall

48:18.340 --> 48:20.562
student learning outcomes . So um thank

48:20.562 --> 48:22.562
you so much for all the work you've

48:22.562 --> 48:24.784
done to support the CS C curriculum and

48:24.784 --> 48:26.840
to improve the quality of our lesson

48:26.840 --> 48:29.419
cards . Yeah . So I tried to pace

48:29.429 --> 48:32.270
myself and do so . The dissertation was

48:32.280 --> 48:34.270
22 studies and this is the needs

48:34.280 --> 48:36.949
assessment portion of that dissertation .

48:36.959 --> 48:39.949
And so I especially since the abstracts

48:39.959 --> 48:42.126
were due like in March and I was still

48:42.126 --> 48:44.237
doing the research . I was like , I'm

48:44.237 --> 48:46.292
not talking about the second part of

48:46.292 --> 48:50.209
the dissertation . Um um We didn't see

48:50.219 --> 48:52.330
the spoiler alert , we didn't see the

48:52.330 --> 48:54.989
changes that we wanted to see um in the

48:55.000 --> 48:57.300
inter in the intervention study . And

48:57.310 --> 48:59.979
perhaps that's a sample size issue . I

48:59.989 --> 49:01.933
think it might be a meta cognition

49:01.933 --> 49:05.360
instrument issue . Um um

49:06.719 --> 49:08.941
No , I don't remember where I was going

49:08.941 --> 49:12.750
with this . But uh um but yeah , I , so

49:13.070 --> 49:14.959
one of the things we did for that

49:14.959 --> 49:17.014
intervention was , was build or give

49:17.014 --> 49:18.903
faculty really the tools to build

49:18.903 --> 49:21.014
reflective questions . And I think we

49:21.014 --> 49:23.348
could do , we there's room to do better .

49:23.449 --> 49:25.505
I think there's room to do better in

49:25.505 --> 49:28.110
connecting it to the thesis as well .

49:28.139 --> 49:30.739
Um qualitatively , the students that I

49:30.750 --> 49:32.694
interviewed , which happened to be

49:32.694 --> 49:34.528
because of , you know , external

49:34.528 --> 49:37.209
factors , the best students um said

49:37.219 --> 49:39.441
that the reflective questions were very

49:39.441 --> 49:41.790
helpful to them . Um um But we didn't

49:41.800 --> 49:43.133
see it quantitatively .

49:47.510 --> 49:50.820
Oh , sorry , I shouldn't even be

49:50.830 --> 49:52.886
pointing . It's not my , it's not my

49:52.886 --> 49:55.219
job to point people and point at people .

49:56.489 --> 49:58.600
I should be able to turn the mic on .

49:58.600 --> 50:00.711
But clearly , we've only been in this

50:00.711 --> 50:02.822
building eight years . So my question

50:02.822 --> 50:04.933
is a follow on to that one and it's a

50:04.933 --> 50:07.100
little outside of your research . So I

50:07.100 --> 50:06.830
apologize for putting you on the spot .

50:06.840 --> 50:08.951
But this is something that we grapple

50:08.951 --> 50:10.951
with , with outcomes based military

50:10.951 --> 50:13.709
education , which is there is a a high

50:13.719 --> 50:15.750
expectation for assessment ,

50:15.760 --> 50:18.110
specifically quantitative assessment of

50:18.120 --> 50:20.739
student performance . And the data

50:21.429 --> 50:23.209
really should be trending in a

50:23.219 --> 50:26.610
particular direction , right ? But so

50:26.620 --> 50:29.989
much of learning is not easily captured

50:30.000 --> 50:32.330
and quantified . So do you have any

50:32.340 --> 50:34.118
thoughts , could you share your

50:34.118 --> 50:37.120
thoughts on measuring creative problem

50:37.139 --> 50:39.540
solving and student learning in one of

50:39.550 --> 50:42.459
these areas where it's really hard to ,

50:42.629 --> 50:45.570
to capture . Yeah . Um

50:46.580 --> 50:48.691
The first thing that comes to my mind

50:48.691 --> 50:50.691
is that we have too short of a time

50:50.691 --> 50:53.320
scale . Um So you spend a , a year at

50:53.330 --> 50:55.889
command and staff college and then you

50:55.899 --> 50:59.219
might not even realize the gains until

50:59.239 --> 51:01.239
you , you know , you're actually in

51:01.239 --> 51:03.406
your job working , you know , 10 years

51:03.406 --> 51:05.628
from now and now and then 10 years from

51:05.628 --> 51:07.739
now , you think , oh , actually , you

51:07.739 --> 51:09.739
know , my , my thinking , my , my ,

51:09.739 --> 51:11.850
this novel idea was really influenced

51:11.850 --> 51:13.739
by what I learned at Marine Corps

51:13.739 --> 51:15.850
University . But um you know , it's ,

51:15.850 --> 51:18.183
it's hard to , to find that information .

51:18.183 --> 51:21.030
And also it's because creativity is

51:21.040 --> 51:23.199
connecting things . It's not gonna be

51:23.209 --> 51:25.209
one thing . It's not gonna be , you

51:25.209 --> 51:27.431
know , command and staff college is the

51:27.431 --> 51:29.550
reason that I was creative five years

51:29.560 --> 51:31.770
later in my career , it's gonna be

51:31.780 --> 51:33.891
command and staff college is gonna be

51:33.891 --> 51:37.520
one of many things . Um So there's so

51:37.530 --> 51:40.979
there's that , um you know , but even

51:40.989 --> 51:43.045
even like at the undergraduate level

51:43.045 --> 51:44.878
when I was at Michigan , I was a

51:44.878 --> 51:46.767
research assistant . And , and we

51:46.767 --> 51:48.600
looked at um student , basically

51:48.610 --> 51:50.780
development of student maturity over

51:50.790 --> 51:52.957
time with the Wabash National Study of

51:52.957 --> 51:55.068
Liberal Arts Education , which looked

51:55.068 --> 51:56.901
at a bunch of different outcomes

51:56.901 --> 51:59.860
related to basically um personal

51:59.879 --> 52:02.564
personal development , maturity . Um

52:02.834 --> 52:05.205
And that's four years and a huge

52:05.215 --> 52:07.437
transition period . Uh you know , going

52:07.437 --> 52:09.215
off to college because this was

52:09.215 --> 52:11.271
traditional age students . Um And we

52:11.271 --> 52:14.074
still didn't see very large increases

52:14.084 --> 52:16.165
in the four years we expected that ,

52:16.175 --> 52:18.685
that we , that we sort of expected . Um

52:18.695 --> 52:20.917
So that's , that's probably the biggest

52:20.917 --> 52:23.675
thing is just um

52:24.949 --> 52:27.419
the time scale . And then also , you

52:27.429 --> 52:29.540
know , creativity is , is or creative

52:29.540 --> 52:31.596
problem solving is hard to measure a

52:31.596 --> 52:33.790
lot of the , a lot of the literature .

52:33.800 --> 52:36.022
You'll think you'll see things like the

52:36.022 --> 52:39.550
um um I'm drawing a blank on the title ,

52:39.560 --> 52:41.879
but the Tricycle Exercise , right ? The

52:41.889 --> 52:43.820
uses of the brick of a brick . So

52:43.830 --> 52:45.886
basically , that's the , that's like

52:45.886 --> 52:47.830
one of the classic ones . Here's a

52:47.830 --> 52:49.941
brick , give me ideas for things that

52:49.941 --> 52:51.941
you can use it for . Um And perhaps

52:51.941 --> 52:54.052
that does demonstrate a little bit of

52:54.052 --> 52:56.219
creativity , a little bit of divergent

52:56.219 --> 52:58.219
thinking . Um But that's not really

52:58.219 --> 53:00.386
what we're looking for . Um When we're

53:00.386 --> 53:02.663
talking about creative problem solving ,

53:02.663 --> 53:04.774
we're not talking about the number of

53:04.774 --> 53:06.997
strange ways that you can use a brick .

53:06.997 --> 53:08.941
Um And so that's a and so that's a

53:08.941 --> 53:10.830
problem . I think in the , in the

53:10.830 --> 53:11.941
research in general

53:18.209 --> 53:19.209
can there , son ?

53:23.020 --> 53:25.242
I was , it didn't work . Uh Bill Gordon

53:25.242 --> 53:27.464
Command and Staff College . Frankly . I

53:27.464 --> 53:29.899
apologize for coming in late . Did you

53:29.909 --> 53:31.889
cover your ideas already on expand

53:31.899 --> 53:34.121
elective curriculum ? You already cover

53:34.121 --> 53:36.232
that . If so I'll talk with you later

53:36.232 --> 53:38.399
about it . We can talk , we can talk .

53:38.399 --> 53:40.399
Ok , good . Thank you . Thank you .

53:43.560 --> 53:46.280
Can you hear me ? Ok , so without

53:46.290 --> 53:49.590
looking at your , um , your survey

53:49.600 --> 53:51.879
questions . I'm wondering and going

53:51.889 --> 53:53.889
back to what the Lieutenant colonel

53:53.889 --> 53:55.556
said about the perceptions of

53:55.556 --> 53:57.500
creativity . I'm wondering what it

53:57.500 --> 53:57.229
would look like if you ask them

53:57.239 --> 53:59.350
something like , how would you define

53:59.350 --> 54:02.169
creativity ? How do you see yourself

54:02.179 --> 54:04.389
using creativity in a group or as an

54:04.399 --> 54:08.260
individual ? And how do you use ,

54:08.520 --> 54:10.687
uh , how do you exercise creativity in

54:10.687 --> 54:12.899
your course content and you can change

54:12.909 --> 54:15.520
them up by asking degree , disagree ,

54:15.530 --> 54:17.586
whatever , because you can almost do

54:17.586 --> 54:19.808
qualitative and a quantitative survey .

54:19.808 --> 54:21.919
Just kind of changing the questions .

54:21.919 --> 54:23.808
I'm just wondering if you ask the

54:23.808 --> 54:25.863
students questions like those , what

54:25.863 --> 54:28.086
responses might you get back ? Yeah , I

54:28.086 --> 54:30.252
think that that's a very interesting ,

54:30.252 --> 54:32.363
you know , line of research because ,

54:32.363 --> 54:34.610
you know , as discussed earlier , what

54:34.620 --> 54:37.439
the students mean by creativity , I

54:37.449 --> 54:39.449
didn't really , I didn't really ask

54:39.449 --> 54:41.505
them that question . It's a , it's a

54:41.505 --> 54:44.149
valid question . Um I didn't focus on

54:44.159 --> 54:46.215
that because I wanted to look at the

54:46.215 --> 54:47.992
creativity of their products um

54:47.992 --> 54:49.826
regardless of what they meant by

54:49.826 --> 54:51.715
creativity , ideally , the people

54:51.715 --> 54:54.120
evaluating these products knew what I'm ,

54:54.129 --> 54:57.000
what we meant by creativity um or

54:57.010 --> 54:59.659
creative problem solving . Um But yes ,

54:59.669 --> 55:01.760
that's a very , you know , a very

55:01.770 --> 55:03.810
interesting sort of line of , of

55:03.820 --> 55:07.239
inquiry is what did the students think

55:07.250 --> 55:08.669
creativity is ? Yeah .

55:13.860 --> 55:16.280
Can you stop ? Um Where do you think

55:16.290 --> 55:19.129
the , I guess intersection of knowledge

55:19.139 --> 55:21.320
acquisition and creativity kind of

55:21.330 --> 55:23.497
blend ? Because if they're in school ,

55:23.497 --> 55:25.608
there's a lot of learning and then if

55:25.608 --> 55:27.830
you're asking me to be creative and you

55:27.830 --> 55:30.052
mentioned this earlier , like , I don't

55:30.052 --> 55:32.274
know enough information about this . So

55:32.274 --> 55:31.469
I guess where , yeah , where , where do

55:31.479 --> 55:33.423
you blend those two or what do you

55:33.423 --> 55:35.479
think is an ideal blend of knowledge

55:35.479 --> 55:38.479
acquisition and creativity ? Yeah . So

55:38.489 --> 55:41.750
Steven Johnson talks about um the

55:41.760 --> 55:43.760
adjacent possible . I'm not sure if

55:43.760 --> 55:45.927
he's the one that coined it , but it's

55:45.927 --> 55:48.038
in his book where the good ideas come

55:48.038 --> 55:50.260
from . Um And so it's this idea that as

55:50.260 --> 55:53.229
you develop knowledge , um sort of the ,

55:53.239 --> 55:55.679
the things that you connect , um

55:55.689 --> 55:57.522
There's more things that you can

55:57.522 --> 55:59.522
connect now as you develop , as you

55:59.522 --> 56:03.260
develop knowledge . Um And so , and so

56:03.320 --> 56:05.489
giving students more time , less

56:05.500 --> 56:07.556
reading it , there's , you know , it

56:07.556 --> 56:10.810
comes at a cost . Um and , and the cost

56:10.820 --> 56:14.350
is they have the potential for fewer

56:14.360 --> 56:17.629
connections . Um I'll say

56:17.889 --> 56:21.010
that uh I don't know exactly what the ,

56:21.020 --> 56:23.242
what the balance is for the most part ,

56:23.242 --> 56:25.719
the faculty and the , the students

56:25.729 --> 56:27.896
didn't really have a comparison here ,

56:27.896 --> 56:29.951
right ? They're one student here for

56:29.951 --> 56:32.139
one year . Um They , they felt like

56:32.149 --> 56:35.810
they had enough reading um faculty

56:36.389 --> 56:38.556
for the most part also felt like there

56:38.556 --> 56:40.722
was still enough reading , it was more

56:40.722 --> 56:42.778
about quality of reading than , than

56:42.778 --> 56:44.889
quantity of reading . But again , the

56:44.889 --> 56:46.833
big outlier of that is some of the

56:46.833 --> 56:48.820
military faculty who talked about

56:49.219 --> 56:51.979
losing the ability to , to see as much .

56:51.989 --> 56:53.933
I'm sorry , not military faculty ,

56:54.010 --> 56:57.600
military history faculty . Um There's ,

56:58.080 --> 57:01.560
you lose um some of the perspectives ,

57:01.570 --> 57:03.737
the diversity of perspectives when you

57:03.737 --> 57:06.070
reduce the amount of reading . You know ,

57:06.070 --> 57:08.292
if you take 20 pages of reading off for

57:08.292 --> 57:10.610
a given uh day's work , uh that's like

57:10.620 --> 57:12.787
a , that's like an article . Um So now

57:12.787 --> 57:14.564
you have one less perspective ,

57:14.564 --> 57:17.010
potentially . I think we have time for

57:17.020 --> 57:20.159
one more . Yes , sir . Were you able to

57:20.169 --> 57:22.409
isolate the perspective on PM E ? So

57:22.419 --> 57:24.641
some students , they come here , it's a

57:24.641 --> 57:26.752
freebie . They've got time with their

57:26.752 --> 57:28.863
family and maybe there's an impact on

57:28.863 --> 57:30.475
creativity and their overall

57:30.475 --> 57:32.699
performance . Whereas some students ,

57:32.709 --> 57:34.765
regardless of their selection , they

57:34.765 --> 57:36.987
come here to learn . So , were you able

57:36.987 --> 57:38.987
to kind of measure that and see any

57:38.987 --> 57:40.959
impact ? Sir ? I didn't measure it

57:40.969 --> 57:43.310
quantitatively . Um I did see it in the

57:43.320 --> 57:46.889
qualitative data um because , you know ,

57:47.110 --> 57:49.909
some students mentioned , especially in

57:49.919 --> 57:52.250
the A Y 21 surveys , some of the

57:52.260 --> 57:55.060
surveys that I sent out um that , you

57:55.070 --> 57:57.389
know , command and staff is billed as a

57:57.399 --> 57:59.399
time for you to , you know , take a

57:59.399 --> 58:01.989
knee , um you know , spend more time

58:02.000 --> 58:03.889
with your family , et cetera , et

58:03.889 --> 58:07.639
cetera . Um And so , uh you

58:07.649 --> 58:09.820
know , then you show up and you're

58:09.830 --> 58:12.689
doing 41 credits and you're doing a lot

58:12.699 --> 58:14.699
of reading every night and all this

58:14.699 --> 58:16.755
kind of stuff . And so some students

58:16.755 --> 58:19.320
complained that it was sold as the

58:19.330 --> 58:21.639
opportunity to take a knee and think ,

58:21.929 --> 58:24.080
um , not just take a knee and rest ,

58:24.090 --> 58:27.120
but also think , um , and then , and

58:27.129 --> 58:29.185
then they didn't have enough time to

58:29.185 --> 58:33.100
think . All right , if you

58:33.110 --> 58:35.221
would join me in thanking Carl Sparks

58:35.221 --> 58:37.388
for presenting this research with us .

58:37.388 --> 58:40.939
Thank you , sir . Uh , one quick

58:40.949 --> 58:43.005
scheduling note . Uh , we are moving

58:43.005 --> 58:45.550
Doctor Nyland and Doctor Watts to 1130

58:45.560 --> 58:47.560
in this room . Right ? Cool . We'll

58:47.560 --> 58:49.671
take a 15 minute break and be back at

58:49.671 --> 58:49.419
1130 .