WEBVTT

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his affairs and related agencies

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subcommittee will come to order . Thank

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you all for participating in this

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hearing on remediation and impact of

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cheetahs before we begin . As this

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hearing is fully virtual as this

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hearing is fully virtual , we must

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again address a few housekeeping items

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for today's meeting . The chair or

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staff designated by the chairmen mute

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participants , microphones when they

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are not under recognition for the

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purposes of eliminating inadvertent

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background noise , members are

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responsible for muting and amusing

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themselves . If I notice that you have

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not a muted yourself , I will ask you

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if you would like the staff to a mute

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you . If you indicate approval by

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nodding staff , will your microphones .

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I remind all members and witnesses that

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the five minute cloth still applies .

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If there is a technology issue , we

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will move to the next member until the

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issue is resolved and you will retain

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the balance of your time . You will

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notice the clock on your screen that

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will show how much time is remaining .

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At one minute remaining , the clock

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will turn to yellow . When your time

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has expired , the clock will turn red ,

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and I will begin to recognize the next

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member . In terms of the speaking order ,

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we will follow the orders set forth in

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the House rules , beginning with the

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chair and ranking member . Then members

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present at the time the hearing is

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called to order will be recognized in

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order of seniority , alternating

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between majority and minority and

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finally , members not present at the

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time the hearing is called to order .

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Finally , House rules require me to

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remind you that we have set up an email

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address to which members can send

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anything they wish to submit in writing

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at any of our hearings or mark ups .

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That email address has been provided in

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advance to your staff . Um , we're

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having this hearing today to dig deeper

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into an issue that many on this

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committee care a lot about as members

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of Congress , responsible for the well

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being of our military and our veterans

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and as human beings . This will be a

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critical look at a public health and

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environmental crisis that has

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challenged the Department of Defense

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and the Department of Veterans Affairs

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for years . I'm referring to the

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widespread chemical contamination of

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our military installations and

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surrounding communities by a family of

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man made toxic chemicals known as

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preface . This contamination has

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plagued our service members , veterans

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and even their families and communities

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for decades . Now . This is a story of

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tragedy , deception , bureaucratic

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incompetence and tireless advocacy by

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service members , veterans and

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nonprofit advocates who have devoted

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themselves to elevating this issue ,

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seeking justice and fighting to clean

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up military sites so that no one else

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is poisoned by this toxic mess . This

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is not our first hearing on this

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important subject . I'm proud to say

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that this subcommittee has aggressively

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pursued answers from the Department of

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Defense on their plans to clean up

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these contaminants and provide

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resources to those who have been harmed .

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We expect a full progress report on

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those efforts today . This year , along

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with the Department of Defense , we

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will be hearing from the Department of

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Veterans Affairs so that we can get via

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his perspective on the long lasting

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impacts of FIFA's exposure on veterans

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and their families , and hopefully

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provide clarity on how veterans can

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navigate the V A when they are

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struggling with health effects related

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to the fox exposure . For decades , the

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fox chemicals were used in a variety of

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industrial and consumer applications ,

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notably PCP . Fox chemicals were and

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continue to be used in large quantities

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on military bases in the form of

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firefighting foams , otherwise known as

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Aquarius film Forming foam or a Triple

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F . Our military performs training

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exercises with to practice suppressing

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potent fires caused by aircraft fuel .

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This usage caused decades of cascading

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harms that few except producers like

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three M could have could have seen

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coming . The toxic chemicals and the

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foam seeped into the ground and

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insidiously spread throughout nearby

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communities , tainted nearby farmland

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and even penetrated groundwater

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supplies . Most pernicious Lee .

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Dangerous quantities of these chemicals

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have been absorbed into the blood

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streams of the brave souls who signed

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up to serve this country in our armed

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forces . They signed up to defend this

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country from its enemies . They never

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signed up to absorb toxic contamination .

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And they certainly never signed up to

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volunteer their families for exposure

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to these toxic chemicals . And this

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story has an even darker , more

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infuriating side . Long has there been

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evidence to support a causal link

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between exposure to keep those

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chemicals and serious health problems ,

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including cancer as well as thyroid ,

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reproductive and developmental issues .

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And yet , for decades , across

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administrations of both parties ,

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Little to no action has been taken by

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the US government . Much of that

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inaction can be traced to the decades

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long campaign of subterfuge and

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deception propagated by producers like

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the three M Company and DuPont . As far

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back as 19 fifties . Studies conducted

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by three M showed that these chemicals

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could build up in our blood . By the 19

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sixties , animal studies conducted by 3

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a.m. and DuPont revealed that Pitfalls

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Chemicals could pose health risks . But

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the company's kept the studies secret

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from their employees and the public for

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decades , and even refused to hand over

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internal documentation of these adverse

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health effects until forced to do so by

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the courts . 1966 The federal

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government , the federal Food and Drug

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Administration rejected a DuPont

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petition to use people's chemicals as a

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food additive , citing liver studies

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indicating some government agencies

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knew of its health risks . The U . S

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the U . S Navy began to raise serious

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concerns about the potential toxicity

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of firefighting foams and its harmful

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effects decades ago , noting in 1978

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that quote . The three um company has

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not provided any useful information

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about the components of FC FC 206 which

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is one of three M's firefighting foams .

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Beginning in the early two thousand's ,

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major corporations , many of which

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supplied the chemical to D . O . D ,

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began to halt the use and production of

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FIFA's through the growing concerns by

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the scientific and health care

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communities . In January of 2000 and

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nine , the EPA released a provisional

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health advisory warning of exposure to

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preface chemicals , and in 2016 , the E .

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P . A went further in issuing a

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lifetime health advisory warning that

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concentrated P , F . L S and P f O A in

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drinking water was suspected of causing

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serious health concerns . Unfortunately ,

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this advisory was merely that E . P . A .

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Chose not to incorporate a real

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enforcement mechanism . The Department

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of Events waited until 2016 after

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decades of concern over exposure to

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Pippa's . Before it finally began to

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clean up these harmful chemicals .

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However , the department is still not

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doing enough , citing a lack of

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evidence , the idea has been slow to

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spend and execute hundreds of millions

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of Congressional e appropriated cleanup

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funds . Let me be clear . There is

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solid scientific evidence that FIFA's

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exposure is harmful to human health and

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the environment , the EPA states on its

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website quote . There is evidence that

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exposure to preface can lead to adverse

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health outcomes and humans . FIFA stays

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in the human body for long periods of

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time . As a result , as people get

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exposed to preface from different

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sources over time , the level of

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purpose and their bodies may increase

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to the point where they suffer from

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adverse health effects unquote . HHS's

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Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease

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Registry released a draft toxicological

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profile of FIFA's in 2018 after it was

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discovered that the Trump

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Administration was delaying its release .

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The report included hundreds of pages

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of evidence that explained that the U .

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S government had not taken this problem

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seriously enough and that EPAs health

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advisory level was likely set far too

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high . As more and more evidence comes

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to light of the serious long term side

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effects of Caiaphas , we need quick and

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efficient remediation and a thorough ,

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comprehensive healthcare approach for

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our veterans and the communities who

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were exposed . It is past time that

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federal agencies start being honest

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with impacted communities , service

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members , veterans and their families

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about the scope of the problem and

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explain the work needed to be done to

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address not only the cleanup of this

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toxin but also the health and

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environmental reparations required .

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It's also long past time , but these

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agencies to issue enforceable rules to

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stop the spread of this contamination

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even more , the O . D needs to expedite

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the replacement of toxic a triple F on

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military installations where they are

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still in use today . This subcommittee

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is committed to doing our part in a

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larger whole of government approach to

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invest in these critical cleanup and

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healthcare efforts . I'm proud that the

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appropriations bill we passed last year

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provided an additional $100 million

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repeat false identification mitigation

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and clean up and closed military

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locations under our Braff account . As

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a proud member of the bipartisan

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Congressional Pitfalls Task Force , I

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was also pleased to vote for the P Fast

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Action Act , a comprehensive approach

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to regulating people's chemicals ,

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cleaning up contamination and

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protecting public health . Today's

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witnesses will help the story tell the

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story of the folks at our military

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bases and the impact it has had on the

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environment surrounding communities and

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those who served . Our first panel will

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feature Mr Paul Cramer , principal

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deputy assistant secretary of defense

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for the sustainment installations at

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the Department of Defense . He is

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accompanied by Mr Mark Coral , deputy

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assistant secretary of environment ,

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safety and infrastructure , and Dr

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Terry Rash , the director of medical

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research and development , also at the

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Department of Defense . Also , as part

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of our first panel , we will have Dr

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Patricia Hastings , chief consultant of

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Post Deployment Health Services

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Veterans Health Administration , at the

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Department of Veterans Affairs . These

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witnesses today will begin we'll be

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able to give us a progress report on

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the ongoing efforts to clean up

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contamination , the ongoing research

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being conducted and hopefully explain

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why these two departments are not doing

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more to respond to the crisis in an

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expeditious way . I am particularly

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interested in hearing how this new

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administration will approach teeth us

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differently and hopefully mark a clean

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break from the lackadaisical approach

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of the previous administration .

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Additionally , the Department of

09:24.873 --> 09:26.984
Veterans Affairs perspective is vital

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because our commitment to protecting

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service members does not end when they

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step off a base . We have a

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responsibility to our veterans to

09:34.651 --> 09:34.460
address the injuries and illnesses they

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suffered as a result of their military

09:36.627 --> 09:38.738
service . Whether it's a blast injury

09:38.738 --> 09:40.738
from combat or repeated exposure to

09:40.738 --> 09:43.090
toxic firefighting film Via is uniquely

09:43.090 --> 09:45.201
positioned to track , study and treat

09:45.201 --> 09:47.423
conditions that may have been caused by

09:47.423 --> 09:49.646
people's exposure . Yet the Fox has not

09:49.646 --> 09:51.534
received the focus at via that it

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deserves the comprehensive research and

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clinical services that via can provide

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through its environmental exposure

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programs could make it far easier for

09:57.981 --> 09:59.926
veterans and doctors to understand

09:59.926 --> 10:02.037
exposure related health conditions as

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well as proved a service connection

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opening the door for veterans to

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receive many other benefits via

10:07.648 --> 10:09.814
benefits . That means they're eager to

10:09.814 --> 10:12.037
discuss how we can better use the power

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of the V A to make a difference from

10:11.500 --> 10:13.667
many service members affected by p box

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exposure . Our second panel will

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feature two leaders in addressing key

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fast contamination . Dr Jamie DeWitt ,

10:19.778 --> 10:22.000
an expert on P Fox contamination and an

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associate professor of the Department

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of Pharmacology and Toxicology at East

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Carolina University , and Miss Erin

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Brockovich , environmental activist

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consumer advocate and longtime champion

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of the Fox cleanup and Public education .

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On harmful contaminants . They will

10:36.833 --> 10:36.670
discuss the impacts of the fox on

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individual health as well as the

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surrounding communities and the

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environment at large . Highlighting my

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action on the issue is so important .

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Thank you all for being here this

10:44.410 --> 10:46.354
afternoon , and we look forward to

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hearing your testimony before we start

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with our first panel . I'd like to

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recognize the acting ranking member

10:52.466 --> 10:54.632
member Congressman Val Audio , for his

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opening remarks . Good afternoon ,

10:56.577 --> 10:58.632
Field with me , Madam Chair . As you

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know , I am filling in for ranking

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member Carter today . This committee

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plays a small , just a small part of a

11:04.799 --> 11:06.743
larger discussion and debate about

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environmental management regulation and

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remediation at military installations .

11:11.188 --> 11:13.132
Our role is focused on funding the

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clean up of former military bases as

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well as providing oversight concerning

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these efforts and ensuring funds are

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spent efficiently and effectively . I

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am especially looking forward to

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hearing more about the Defense

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Department's current for mediation

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efforts and upcoming plans and

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activities . Also looking forward to

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hear about the Department of Veterans

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Affairs role and the effects of that

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the focus has on our veterans . Madam

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Chair , I would like to commend you for

11:35.266 --> 11:34.860
putting together an impressive witness

11:34.860 --> 11:36.880
list for today's hearing . The

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witnesses have years of experience and

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expertise which will allow us to really

11:41.279 --> 11:43.223
dig into the issues today and help

11:43.223 --> 11:45.223
informing our funding decisions for

11:45.223 --> 11:47.560
fiscal year 2022 . Thank you . And I

11:47.560 --> 11:51.160
yield back . Thank you so much , Mr Val

11:51.160 --> 11:53.450
Audio . Appreciate your kind words .

11:53.460 --> 11:55.400
I'm told that neither Chairwoman

11:55.400 --> 11:57.400
Dolorosa ranking member Granger are

11:57.400 --> 11:59.320
with us . So with that , we will

11:59.330 --> 12:01.497
welcome our first panel as I mentioned

12:01.497 --> 12:03.552
our witnesses . Or Mr Paul Kramer of

12:03.552 --> 12:05.774
the Department of Defense , accompanied

12:05.774 --> 12:08.250
by Mr Mark Coral and Dr Terry Rouch and

12:08.250 --> 12:10.028
Dr Patricia are Hastings of the

12:10.028 --> 12:12.139
Department of Veterans Affairs . Mr .

12:12.139 --> 12:14.194
Kramer , your full written testimony

12:14.194 --> 12:16.139
will be included in the record you

12:16.139 --> 12:15.990
recognize for five minutes to summarize

12:15.990 --> 12:19.820
your remarks . Thank you , madam . Your

12:19.820 --> 12:21.653
woman , uh , Wasserman Schultz ,

12:21.653 --> 12:23.876
ranking male about ranking member of Al

12:23.876 --> 12:25.987
Audio . Mr . Kramer , you may need to

12:25.987 --> 12:27.931
turn the volume up . It's a little

12:27.931 --> 12:29.830
difficult to hear you ,

12:29.840 --> 12:33.580
Uh , audio check . Is

12:33.580 --> 12:37.580
that 20 years on

12:37.580 --> 12:41.260
two ? Yeah . Let's try them all .

12:41.940 --> 12:45.120
Stephen , it's , uh , continually

12:45.120 --> 12:47.680
better . Madam Chairwoman . Uh , thank

12:47.680 --> 12:49.291
you . Uh , thank you for the

12:49.291 --> 12:51.291
opportunity to provide an update on

12:51.291 --> 12:53.513
duties actions related to P past . I am

12:53.513 --> 12:55.624
Paul Cramer , currently the principal

12:55.624 --> 12:57.736
deputy assistant Secretary of Defense

12:57.736 --> 12:59.347
for energy installations and

12:59.347 --> 13:01.513
environments and performing the duties

13:01.513 --> 13:01.160
of the assistant secretary of defense

13:01.160 --> 13:03.327
for sustainment . Joining me today are

13:03.327 --> 13:05.382
Mr Mark Carol , the deputy assistant

13:05.382 --> 13:07.104
secretary of the Air Force for

13:07.104 --> 13:09.438
Environment , Safety and Infrastructure ,

13:09.438 --> 13:11.493
and Dr Terry Rows to the director of

13:11.493 --> 13:13.604
medical research in the office of the

13:13.604 --> 13:13.270
assistant secretary Defense for Health

13:13.270 --> 13:15.790
Affairs . D . O . D has a long track

13:15.800 --> 13:17.578
record of addressing PFS issues

13:17.578 --> 13:19.800
responsibly following the science and

13:19.800 --> 13:22.022
the direction of Congress . This record

13:22.022 --> 13:24.189
includes a list of accomplishments and

13:24.189 --> 13:26.411
strong inter agency collaboration . The

13:26.411 --> 13:28.356
department has has in place a well

13:28.356 --> 13:30.578
structured and , thanks to Congress , a

13:30.578 --> 13:32.744
well resourced bot approach to address

13:32.744 --> 13:35.200
P fast responsibly . This does not mean

13:35.200 --> 13:37.311
that there's not room for improvement

13:37.311 --> 13:39.478
specifically in the areas of increased

13:39.478 --> 13:41.644
transparency regarding the progress of

13:41.644 --> 13:43.478
our work . I want to first thank

13:43.478 --> 13:45.533
Congress for their strong support to

13:45.533 --> 13:47.756
the department offense by providing the

13:47.756 --> 13:49.978
resources we need to protect the health

13:49.978 --> 13:51.978
and safety of our service members ,

13:51.978 --> 13:54.089
their families and the D O d civilian

13:54.089 --> 13:56.200
workforce and the D . O d communities

13:56.200 --> 13:58.450
that serve around our installations .

13:58.940 --> 14:01.051
We recognize that our accomplishments

14:01.051 --> 14:03.051
to date are not sufficient alone to

14:03.051 --> 14:05.273
meet the challenges that we are that we

14:05.273 --> 14:07.051
face , and accordingly , we are

14:07.051 --> 14:09.273
continuing our efforts of the d . O d P

14:09.273 --> 14:11.440
fast task force . As you know that the

14:11.440 --> 14:13.107
D O D . P Fast Task Force was

14:13.107 --> 14:15.140
established in July 2019 to provide

14:15.140 --> 14:17.340
strategic leadership and direction to

14:17.340 --> 14:19.600
ensure a coordinated , aggressive and

14:19.600 --> 14:21.990
holistic approach on D . O D . White

14:21.990 --> 14:24.212
efforts to address PFS . The task force

14:24.212 --> 14:26.850
continues to diligently address PFS and

14:26.850 --> 14:28.850
is postured to be responsive to the

14:28.850 --> 14:31.017
direction of this administration . Our

14:31.017 --> 14:33.500
task force efforts are organized along

14:33.500 --> 14:36.210
three major lives . Mitigate and

14:36.210 --> 14:38.043
eliminate the use of the current

14:38.050 --> 14:39.760
acquiesce film forming foam ,

14:40.240 --> 14:42.462
fulfilling our cleanup responsibilities

14:42.462 --> 14:44.518
and understanding the impacts of the

14:44.518 --> 14:46.629
fast on human health . The department

14:46.629 --> 14:48.740
is committed to addressing its P fast

14:48.740 --> 14:50.962
releases to the environment . Under the

14:50.962 --> 14:53.018
federal clean up Law as of September

14:53.018 --> 14:55.810
30th , 2020 d . O . D has identified

14:55.810 --> 14:59.540
108 base realign and or closed

14:59.550 --> 15:01.717
installations where D . O . D may have

15:01.717 --> 15:04.140
used or potentially release p past and

15:04.140 --> 15:06.196
is conducting a P fast assessment of

15:06.196 --> 15:08.362
these installations . The ODS priority

15:08.362 --> 15:10.473
is to quickly address P foster and or

15:10.473 --> 15:12.418
people are found in drinking water

15:12.418 --> 15:14.550
above the EPA . Lifetime health

15:14.550 --> 15:16.990
advisory levels under the circle

15:16.990 --> 15:19.350
process . No one is currently drinking

15:19.350 --> 15:22.630
water , whether on or off base with P

15:22.630 --> 15:25.500
Fast or P . Foss or people above the

15:25.500 --> 15:27.667
health advisory levels . Where D . O .

15:27.667 --> 15:29.722
D . Is the known source . D . O d is

15:29.722 --> 15:32.150
also investing in research to develop

15:32.160 --> 15:35.370
technologies , uh , to quantify and

15:35.370 --> 15:37.860
clean up pee fast . These efforts

15:37.860 --> 15:40.120
reinforce deities commitment to protect

15:40.130 --> 15:42.270
human health . Addressing the

15:42.270 --> 15:44.580
challenges of the fast is a national

15:44.590 --> 15:46.770
issue that will require national

15:46.770 --> 15:48.960
solutions and interagency efforts .

15:49.340 --> 15:51.673
While the department alone acting alone ,

15:51.673 --> 15:53.784
cannot be the single solution to this

15:53.784 --> 15:55.784
challenge , we acknowledge that the

15:55.784 --> 15:57.896
role the role that Congress has given

15:57.896 --> 15:59.951
us and remain committed to doing our

15:59.951 --> 16:01.840
part congressional support on our

16:01.840 --> 16:04.062
efforts has been an invaluable . And we

16:04.062 --> 16:06.118
look forward to working closely with

16:06.118 --> 16:07.673
this subcommittee and other

16:07.673 --> 16:09.840
stakeholders in the public private and

16:09.840 --> 16:11.951
not for profit sector to to achieve a

16:11.951 --> 16:14.062
lasting solution . We look forward to

16:14.062 --> 16:17.660
your questions . Thank you , Mr Kramer .

16:17.670 --> 16:19.726
Um , Dr Hastings , your full written

16:19.726 --> 16:21.670
testimony will be entered into the

16:21.670 --> 16:23.448
record and you're recognized to

16:23.448 --> 16:25.781
summarize your remarks for five minutes .

16:25.781 --> 16:27.670
Thank you very much . Madam Chair

16:27.670 --> 16:29.892
Wasserman Schultz . Congressman . Valid

16:29.892 --> 16:31.948
audio and members of the Committee ,

16:31.948 --> 16:34.170
Thank you very much for the opportunity

16:34.170 --> 16:36.550
to discuss the ongoing activities at V

16:36.550 --> 16:38.880
A and what we are undertaking to

16:38.880 --> 16:41.102
address the health concerns that may be

16:41.102 --> 16:43.510
associated with the per or poly floral

16:43.520 --> 16:45.650
alcohol substances or pee Fast

16:47.240 --> 16:49.820
via exists to help veterans improve

16:49.820 --> 16:52.220
their quality of their life and when

16:52.220 --> 16:53.998
military service has negatively

16:53.998 --> 16:56.164
impacted their health . We are here to

16:56.164 --> 16:57.998
provide care and in some cases ,

16:57.998 --> 17:00.240
compensation for those conditions that

17:00.240 --> 17:02.240
are associated with their service .

17:02.540 --> 17:05.640
Service related um , exposures are a

17:05.640 --> 17:07.807
major concern of veterans and actually

17:07.807 --> 17:09.640
is the reason that my office was

17:09.640 --> 17:11.640
created and that is post deployment

17:11.640 --> 17:14.020
health services . As you've already

17:14.020 --> 17:16.450
noted , Pittas are persistent in the

17:16.450 --> 17:18.617
environment and since they are used in

17:18.617 --> 17:20.839
the manufacturing of so many products ,

17:20.839 --> 17:23.061
their widespread in the environment and

17:23.061 --> 17:25.006
internationally . According to the

17:25.006 --> 17:26.783
Centers for Disease Control and

17:26.783 --> 17:28.617
Prevention , National Health and

17:28.617 --> 17:30.617
Nutrition Examination Survey data ,

17:30.617 --> 17:33.480
these chemicals are detected in 99% of

17:33.480 --> 17:35.536
the general population of the United

17:35.536 --> 17:38.930
States . He fast concentrations have

17:38.930 --> 17:41.041
decreased over time and in large part

17:41.041 --> 17:43.210
due to decreasing use of these

17:43.210 --> 17:46.180
chemicals . One of the issues we have

17:46.180 --> 17:48.347
is in addressing the people's concerns

17:48.347 --> 17:50.520
of the veteran population . There are

17:50.520 --> 17:52.600
several challenges . Since these

17:52.610 --> 17:54.770
chemicals are not unique to military

17:54.770 --> 17:56.881
environments , making comparisons for

17:56.881 --> 17:59.280
non veteran populations becomes more

17:59.280 --> 18:01.850
difficult . Ideally , we would like to

18:01.850 --> 18:03.920
see levels for military members at

18:03.920 --> 18:06.650
accession and when they leave service

18:06.650 --> 18:08.817
and possibly at some time during their

18:08.817 --> 18:11.150
service to adequately assess the burden

18:11.150 --> 18:15.030
of military people past exposures Via

18:15.030 --> 18:16.808
does work very closely with its

18:16.808 --> 18:19.730
partners . Um , specifically the Agency

18:19.730 --> 18:22.110
for Toxic Substance Disease Registry 80

18:22.110 --> 18:24.760
SDR . We work with the EPA , the

18:24.760 --> 18:26.871
National Academy of Sciences and , of

18:26.871 --> 18:28.982
course , with our partners at D o D .

18:28.982 --> 18:32.810
As well as many others . We meet

18:32.810 --> 18:35.270
with a T S d are routinely , and we

18:35.270 --> 18:38.680
review their multi site health study

18:38.690 --> 18:40.746
and the work being done by our other

18:40.746 --> 18:42.968
partners in academia . The science into

18:42.968 --> 18:45.490
people's exposures is advancing and

18:45.490 --> 18:47.712
will be used to make informed decisions

18:47.712 --> 18:51.540
about the risks . In conclusion , the

18:51.540 --> 18:53.318
health consequences of P five s

18:53.318 --> 18:55.484
exposure represent a concern for the V

18:55.484 --> 18:58.260
A and all of the veterans that we serve .

18:58.740 --> 19:00.907
We are closely monitoring the evolving

19:00.907 --> 19:03.080
science , working with our federal

19:03.080 --> 19:05.080
partners so that we can support our

19:05.080 --> 19:07.400
veterans now and into the future to

19:07.400 --> 19:09.456
this end , Your continued support is

19:09.456 --> 19:12.460
critical . This concludes my my

19:12.460 --> 19:14.293
testimony , and I am prepared to

19:14.293 --> 19:17.110
respond to your questions . Thank you

19:17.110 --> 19:20.140
so much , Doctor . We'll we'll proceed

19:20.140 --> 19:22.196
in the standard five minute rounds ,

19:22.196 --> 19:24.307
alternating sides recognizing members

19:24.307 --> 19:26.418
in order of seniority as they arrived

19:26.418 --> 19:26.350
at the beginning of the hearing . Just

19:26.350 --> 19:28.461
be mindful of your time and allow the

19:28.461 --> 19:30.683
witnesses time to answer your questions

19:30.683 --> 19:32.906
within your five minute turn . Um , and

19:32.906 --> 19:35.470
we will continue to be , uh , flexible

19:35.480 --> 19:38.230
in that , uh , towards the end of your

19:38.240 --> 19:41.670
questions . Um , okay .

19:42.440 --> 19:46.420
Ah , Mr . Kramer , the department has

19:46.420 --> 19:48.610
received as you mentioned , um ,

19:48.620 --> 19:50.509
significant appropriated funds to

19:50.509 --> 19:52.842
address PP fox for the last three years .

19:52.842 --> 19:55.100
Um , I'd like to understand better how

19:55.100 --> 19:57.930
you used those funds and whether or not

19:57.930 --> 20:00.152
you're able to spend all the money that

20:00.152 --> 20:02.152
we're appropriating for Pete Foster

20:02.152 --> 20:01.560
mediation .

20:05.940 --> 20:09.260
Madam Chairman , we are our main effort

20:09.270 --> 20:11.310
today has been , uh , and on the

20:11.310 --> 20:12.866
research and development of

20:12.866 --> 20:15.530
alternatives to , uh , Triple F . Uh ,

20:15.540 --> 20:17.800
we've invested substantially in in the

20:17.810 --> 20:19.940
into that research and and , uh ,

20:19.950 --> 20:21.950
showing some positive results going

20:21.950 --> 20:25.110
forward , uh , into further testing to

20:25.120 --> 20:27.398
meet the deadlines for for replacement .

20:27.398 --> 20:29.509
A trip left Yeah . The other portions

20:29.509 --> 20:31.731
of the funds have been heavily invested

20:31.731 --> 20:35.040
in and removal actions associated with

20:35.050 --> 20:37.900
with installations where we have found ,

20:37.910 --> 20:41.700
uh , water sources that exceeded the 70

20:41.700 --> 20:43.890
parts per trillion , uh , lifetime

20:43.890 --> 20:45.946
health advisory . And so we're we're

20:45.946 --> 20:47.940
going through Remedia remediation

20:47.940 --> 20:50.107
actions for those . And we have , uh ,

20:50.107 --> 20:53.190
77 locations . Uh , that's combined off

20:53.190 --> 20:55.930
post and on post , uh , where we have

20:55.930 --> 20:57.790
found , uh , drinking water that

20:57.790 --> 21:00.012
exceeded the standards . And then we we

21:00.012 --> 21:02.720
employ remedial actions to bring that

21:02.720 --> 21:04.942
water source back down below the health

21:04.942 --> 21:07.560
time . Lifetime health advisory . Are

21:07.560 --> 21:09.616
you able to spend all the money that

21:09.616 --> 21:11.449
we're appropriating for the fast

21:11.449 --> 21:13.616
remediation ? Yes . Yes , we are . Can

21:13.616 --> 21:15.838
you handle further increases if we wish

21:15.838 --> 21:17.893
to appropriate more funding and more

21:17.893 --> 21:20.116
significant appropriations for the fast

21:20.116 --> 21:22.060
track remediation ? Expedite those

21:22.060 --> 21:24.310
efforts ? Uh , it would . And we could

21:24.310 --> 21:26.310
get back to you on what that amount

21:26.310 --> 21:28.260
would be . We don't want to , uh ,

21:28.270 --> 21:30.548
exceed our capacity , because there is ,

21:30.548 --> 21:32.714
uh , there is a limit as we go through

21:32.714 --> 21:35.650
our our circle of process . We It's a

21:35.650 --> 21:37.706
logical step . We want to We want to

21:37.706 --> 21:39.761
have the right amount of funds to do

21:39.761 --> 21:41.983
that activity going forward . So we can

21:41.983 --> 21:44.440
We can definitely give you a rundown by

21:44.440 --> 21:46.662
fiscal year . What that would look like

21:46.662 --> 21:48.884
that would be helpful . Thank you . I'd

21:48.884 --> 21:51.520
like to ask Dr Dr Ralph and Dr Hastings

21:51.530 --> 21:54.360
a question about the research that both

21:54.360 --> 21:57.590
D o d and V A are doing on the impact

21:57.590 --> 22:00.170
of the fast exposure on service members

22:00.170 --> 22:02.020
and veterans on your surrounding

22:02.020 --> 22:04.250
communities and the environment . Um ,

22:04.260 --> 22:06.260
can we start with Dr Ralph ? What ?

22:06.260 --> 22:08.038
What ? What research is D O d .

22:08.038 --> 22:09.982
Conducting and , uh , on on all of

22:09.982 --> 22:13.870
those categories of individuals . Thank

22:13.870 --> 22:17.290
you , Madam Chair for the question . Uh ,

22:17.300 --> 22:21.280
we are closely monitoring

22:21.280 --> 22:24.640
the research that is being done out of

22:24.650 --> 22:27.660
C . D . C . And , um

22:29.240 --> 22:31.260
uh , I'm asking specifically what

22:31.270 --> 22:33.810
research ? I'm sorry , reclaiming my

22:33.810 --> 22:36.630
time . I'm sorry . Proclaiming my time .

22:36.640 --> 22:39.230
I'm asking what research specifically

22:39.230 --> 22:42.110
is D o d . Conducting on the impact of

22:42.120 --> 22:44.570
the fuss exposure on the health effects .

22:44.580 --> 22:48.270
We have , um , two studies that are

22:48.270 --> 22:51.320
going on right now , which are focusing

22:51.320 --> 22:54.540
on , um , cancer .

22:55.240 --> 22:57.640
And , uh , those are epidemiologic

22:57.640 --> 22:59.970
studies . One is using the serum

22:59.970 --> 23:02.680
repository . Uh , and the other is

23:02.680 --> 23:06.350
using another database . Um uh ,

23:06.360 --> 23:09.170
related to African American women .

23:09.940 --> 23:11.662
Are you focused on surrounding

23:11.662 --> 23:14.440
communities on service members on

23:14.440 --> 23:16.590
veterans , the environment ? What are

23:16.590 --> 23:18.923
the focus is of those studies . So , uh ,

23:18.923 --> 23:22.580
so 11 study that is being conducted by

23:22.590 --> 23:26.210
uh , N C . I is focused on

23:26.220 --> 23:29.910
looking at air Force members using the

23:29.910 --> 23:32.630
diode serum repository , and that is

23:32.630 --> 23:35.160
the focus on particular cancer .

23:35.540 --> 23:38.190
Um , and then the other , like I said ,

23:38.200 --> 23:40.470
is on African American women that are

23:40.470 --> 23:43.130
not service members , but a part of the

23:43.140 --> 23:46.620
larger community in the area where they

23:46.620 --> 23:48.730
are . Where that databases . That's

23:48.740 --> 23:51.020
around South Carolina . Okay . And is

23:51.020 --> 23:54.910
that using D o D funds ? That is the O

23:54.910 --> 23:56.799
D appropriated funds . That's the

23:56.799 --> 23:59.210
defense health programs . Okay , two

23:59.210 --> 24:01.432
studies does not sound like very much .

24:01.432 --> 24:03.543
I mean , you're the largest budget in

24:03.543 --> 24:05.599
the executive branch . Why is in the

24:05.599 --> 24:09.160
department doing more ? Our our

24:09.160 --> 24:11.720
budget for medical research and

24:11.720 --> 24:14.480
development , um , is pretty broad in

24:14.480 --> 24:16.520
scope , but our focus is really on

24:16.520 --> 24:18.580
combat casualty care , battlefield

24:18.580 --> 24:21.320
trauma , things that are within the

24:21.320 --> 24:24.610
jury , students of , um of the D o d

24:24.610 --> 24:27.680
mission . Uh , and we would think it

24:27.680 --> 24:30.290
would be the second

24:31.400 --> 24:34.330
CDC right ? I would think that would be

24:34.330 --> 24:36.552
part of your mission not to sicken your

24:36.552 --> 24:39.370
active duty military and to make sure

24:39.380 --> 24:41.491
that they don't have long term health

24:41.491 --> 24:43.713
problems . So two studies does not seem

24:43.713 --> 24:46.030
like a real commitment to getting to

24:46.030 --> 24:48.030
the bottom of this . Why aren't you

24:48.030 --> 24:50.770
doing more ? Well , we can . Certainly

24:50.780 --> 24:52.960
We can certainly do more . But like I

24:52.960 --> 24:56.790
said before , um , our our focus

24:56.800 --> 25:00.340
is on trauma care , mental health of

25:00.350 --> 25:04.260
our military members . And when there's

25:04.260 --> 25:07.840
another apartments or agency's mission

25:07.840 --> 25:11.420
like EPA and and C . D . C , we

25:11.420 --> 25:13.560
rely on them to do that .

25:14.360 --> 25:18.340
I understand . I understand that's been

25:18.340 --> 25:20.562
your position . But why should it be up

25:20.562 --> 25:22.784
to other agencies when D . O . D is the

25:22.784 --> 25:24.618
one using the toxins and has the

25:24.618 --> 25:26.896
largest budget in the executive branch ?

25:29.640 --> 25:32.950
Well , once once again , Madam

25:32.950 --> 25:36.280
Chair Um , D . O . D . Is limited in

25:36.280 --> 25:39.690
terms of medical research on on our

25:39.690 --> 25:42.870
priority programs . And

25:42.880 --> 25:46.600
when another agency , um ,

25:46.610 --> 25:50.030
such as C . D . C or N . C . I has that

25:50.040 --> 25:53.740
mission . We rely on them and worked

25:53.740 --> 25:55.940
closely with them . But presumably if

25:55.940 --> 25:58.870
we sources , presumably if we gave you

25:58.870 --> 26:02.140
the resources to focus your research

26:02.150 --> 26:04.700
even if you were using other agencies

26:04.710 --> 26:07.420
to do so because that's their area of

26:07.420 --> 26:09.780
expertise , you could do more than two

26:09.780 --> 26:11.960
studies , Correct . We could certainly

26:11.960 --> 26:15.850
do more if if , um if

26:16.340 --> 26:18.396
if there was congressional direction

26:18.396 --> 26:20.700
directing us to do more . But we're

26:20.700 --> 26:23.400
going to focus on our battlefield

26:23.410 --> 26:26.100
problems . And and part of the reason

26:26.100 --> 26:28.322
we're having this hearing is to suggest

26:28.322 --> 26:30.544
that you should focus on more than just

26:30.544 --> 26:32.700
your battle battlefield and make sure

26:32.700 --> 26:34.867
that the people who are on your battle

26:34.867 --> 26:36.922
battlefield aren't being sickened by

26:36.922 --> 26:39.250
toxins that you're making them use to

26:39.250 --> 26:41.560
fight fires . Uh , and Dr Hastings , if

26:41.560 --> 26:43.782
you would answer the same question , is

26:43.782 --> 26:45.838
the is the via doing any research of

26:45.838 --> 26:47.782
his own on the effects of the fast

26:47.782 --> 26:49.838
exposure . We are not doing original

26:49.838 --> 26:53.190
research and , uh , similar to D o . D .

26:53.190 --> 26:56.040
We are looking to atsdr . We are

26:56.040 --> 26:58.262
working with our federal partners , are

26:58.262 --> 27:00.990
Toxicologist is involved with the whole

27:00.990 --> 27:03.101
of government approach and we do look

27:03.101 --> 27:05.101
at the research that's coming out ,

27:05.101 --> 27:07.212
most of it having started rather late

27:07.212 --> 27:11.140
in the , um in the recent past , the

27:11.140 --> 27:14.310
last decade , Um , a T S d r , as you

27:14.310 --> 27:17.070
know , is doing a multi site study

27:17.070 --> 27:19.150
looking at the community surrounding

27:19.150 --> 27:22.020
the military bases , and we meet with

27:22.020 --> 27:25.440
them monthly to review many

27:25.440 --> 27:27.860
studies , pitfalls being one of them .

27:28.240 --> 27:30.500
And our toxicologist meets routinely

27:30.500 --> 27:32.440
with E . P . A . We are not doing

27:32.440 --> 27:34.607
original research , but we are looking

27:34.607 --> 27:36.718
at the research that's out there . We

27:36.718 --> 27:38.900
do also do mortality studies on our

27:38.900 --> 27:41.540
veterans . Um , we have not seen a

27:41.540 --> 27:43.820
signal that points toward preface at

27:43.820 --> 27:46.350
this time , but we are looking at that

27:46.350 --> 27:49.330
specifically with our overview of

27:49.330 --> 27:51.552
morbidity and mortality and health care

27:51.552 --> 27:54.200
and V A . Okay , I would . But again ,

27:54.210 --> 27:56.210
for you as well , strongly suggests

27:56.210 --> 27:58.543
that v A could and should be doing more .

27:58.543 --> 28:02.030
I would absolutely be amenable to that .

28:02.030 --> 28:04.110
My office exists to find answers for

28:04.110 --> 28:07.360
veterans . Um , and we have some of the

28:07.360 --> 28:10.700
best epidemiologists , um , bar none

28:10.700 --> 28:13.840
anywhere in the U . S . So happy to do

28:13.840 --> 28:16.260
that . I'd love to follow up with you

28:16.260 --> 28:18.316
and and maybe sit down and talk with

28:18.316 --> 28:20.427
what about with you . About what else

28:20.427 --> 28:22.920
could be done . Yes , ma'am . Thank you .

28:22.930 --> 28:24.819
Thank you to the members for your

28:24.819 --> 28:26.986
indulgence , Mr Halliday . Oh , you're

28:26.986 --> 28:29.152
recognized for at least five minutes .

28:29.540 --> 28:31.707
Thank you , Madam Chair . I think this

28:31.707 --> 28:33.818
question might be directed towards Mr

28:33.818 --> 28:35.707
Kramer , but can you describe the

28:35.707 --> 28:37.818
process the department uses to select

28:37.818 --> 28:39.707
rack sites for P . Foss cleanup ?

28:42.040 --> 28:45.720
Uh , we , we we we have we we use

28:45.720 --> 28:48.230
all we we look to all black side . We

28:48.230 --> 28:50.341
don't select the black sites . And so

28:50.341 --> 28:52.670
we we did a review of , of all the

28:52.670 --> 28:55.110
clothes bases , uh , and I misspoke

28:55.110 --> 28:57.590
earlier . There's 114 . Uh , so we're

28:57.590 --> 29:00.190
looking at 100 and 14 bases , uh , that

29:00.190 --> 29:02.134
were closed under under a previous

29:02.134 --> 29:04.190
background . Uh , and then from the

29:04.200 --> 29:06.422
initial assessments , will will go down

29:06.422 --> 29:08.589
the to the next step within the search

29:08.589 --> 29:11.490
process . So and I assume I have those

29:11.490 --> 29:13.268
bases . There are some that are

29:13.268 --> 29:15.379
priorities . Which sites of those are

29:15.379 --> 29:17.601
your greatest concern and what needs to

29:17.601 --> 29:21.140
be down done there . Okay , so

29:21.150 --> 29:23.360
So we we have I don't know that we've

29:23.360 --> 29:25.950
got to the greatest concern . So we're

29:25.950 --> 29:28.172
treating them all as a risk based . And

29:28.172 --> 29:31.950
so we we have , uh , 45 that are the

29:31.960 --> 29:35.550
p I S t . A s . I is underway , uh ,

29:35.550 --> 29:37.550
and out of those who go to the next

29:37.550 --> 29:39.550
step that we'll we'll take a deeper

29:39.550 --> 29:41.550
look at and from there based on the

29:41.550 --> 29:43.720
highest risk , uh , to human health .

29:43.720 --> 29:46.280
We'll prioritize that work as it comes

29:46.280 --> 29:48.502
out as we sit here today , I don't know

29:48.502 --> 29:50.580
that we have a prioritized list of

29:50.590 --> 29:53.360
close brace close black sites . So if I

29:53.360 --> 29:55.249
misunderstood , make sure I'm not

29:55.249 --> 29:57.471
misunderstanding you . You haven't even

29:57.471 --> 29:59.416
gotten to the point where you know

29:59.416 --> 30:01.638
where the greatest risks are at today .

30:01.638 --> 30:03.749
Well , we know there . There are some

30:03.749 --> 30:05.916
that that have went further along than

30:05.916 --> 30:09.140
others . Uh , that we're taking , you

30:09.140 --> 30:11.930
know , actions on . But yeah , as a

30:11.930 --> 30:14.041
whole were still not complete . We're

30:14.041 --> 30:16.152
still doing the initial assessments .

30:16.152 --> 30:19.030
And , um , how long does it take ?

30:19.040 --> 30:21.096
Would you even know this , then ? It

30:21.096 --> 30:23.318
almost sounds like I'm getting a little

30:23.318 --> 30:22.510
too far ahead of you . But how long

30:22.510 --> 30:24.566
does it typically take to clean up a

30:24.566 --> 30:28.470
known contamination site ? Mhm , Uh ,

30:28.480 --> 30:30.550
depends on the contaminant and

30:30.550 --> 30:33.920
the level of of

30:33.920 --> 30:36.200
contamination . Uh , it could take

30:36.210 --> 30:39.320
upwards of 30 years . Uh , and based on

30:39.320 --> 30:41.431
the chemical , some of these are what

30:41.431 --> 30:43.598
we referred to euphemistically as pump

30:43.598 --> 30:45.709
and treat . Uh , which is a long term

30:45.709 --> 30:47.876
process . So we want to go through the

30:47.876 --> 30:50.098
circular . You know , each of the steps

30:50.098 --> 30:53.440
to identify the source . The level , uh ,

30:53.450 --> 30:55.672
so that we are targeting the cleanup to

30:55.672 --> 30:57.894
try to , you know , shorten that period

30:57.894 --> 31:00.260
down . Uh , one of the real issues with

31:00.270 --> 31:03.090
P passes . As we know , it's , uh , you

31:03.090 --> 31:05.090
know , it's called Forever Chemical

31:05.090 --> 31:07.312
because that bond is so strong . And so

31:07.312 --> 31:09.423
there's a number of research going on

31:09.423 --> 31:11.646
now the , uh , to , uh to try to figure

31:11.646 --> 31:13.868
out how to expedite the cleanup process

31:13.868 --> 31:17.300
for p pass . What other

31:17.300 --> 31:19.522
contaminants environmental contaminants

31:19.522 --> 31:21.522
is the d o d concerned with . As of

31:21.522 --> 31:25.360
right now , I'm sorry .

31:25.610 --> 31:27.610
Say it again . All right . I assume

31:27.610 --> 31:29.666
there are environmental contaminants

31:29.666 --> 31:31.666
that d o D is concerned with at the

31:31.666 --> 31:33.943
same time . Can you name some of those ?

31:34.640 --> 31:36.696
I'm sorry , sir . Good . Yeah . Your

31:36.696 --> 31:38.418
other contaminants that we are

31:38.418 --> 31:40.640
concerned about other . Yeah . So we we

31:40.640 --> 31:42.770
have , uh , within the circle of

31:42.770 --> 31:44.826
process . There are black sites that

31:44.826 --> 31:46.826
were already into the circle of the

31:46.826 --> 31:49.103
cleanup process that we're going after ,

31:49.103 --> 31:51.490
uh , and and we're looking at P fast on

31:51.490 --> 31:54.050
top of that , uh , that previous look

31:54.050 --> 31:56.217
on the bright side , all black sites .

31:56.217 --> 31:58.439
Uh , when clothes went through a circle

31:58.439 --> 32:00.606
of process review and and came up with

32:00.606 --> 32:02.717
a remedial strategy that was approved

32:02.717 --> 32:05.080
by the regulators . It's one add to the

32:05.090 --> 32:09.090
to the on the last one . So so

32:09.090 --> 32:11.640
the greatest concern would be exposure

32:11.640 --> 32:13.918
to drinking water at our clothes sites .

32:13.918 --> 32:17.530
And so so where we have found , uh ,

32:17.540 --> 32:19.640
groundwater sources or water tables

32:19.640 --> 32:21.751
that do have Chief Asset is the known

32:21.751 --> 32:23.700
source of drinking water . We are

32:23.700 --> 32:25.644
cleaning up that drinking water to

32:25.644 --> 32:28.070
below the Lifetime Health Advisor or to

32:28.070 --> 32:31.180
meet the state standards , uh , for for

32:31.190 --> 32:33.590
for the folks that are served by that

32:33.600 --> 32:36.570
that source . Okay , so you mentioned

32:36.570 --> 32:38.737
this a little bit , but just to follow

32:38.737 --> 32:40.737
up . Currently , it seems , pumping

32:40.737 --> 32:42.959
treat is the only method the D O . D is

32:42.959 --> 32:45.237
using to treat PCOS contaminated water .

32:45.237 --> 32:47.348
In last year's omnibus appropriations

32:47.348 --> 32:49.403
bill , the committee noted that this

32:49.403 --> 32:51.570
method of the foster mediation is both

32:51.570 --> 32:53.903
costly and time consuming and encourage .

32:53.903 --> 32:55.903
The department continued to explore

32:55.903 --> 32:58.070
innovative technical logical solutions

32:58.070 --> 33:00.181
for treating pathos contaminations in

33:00.181 --> 33:02.014
groundwater . What steps has the

33:02.014 --> 33:03.626
department taken to seek out

33:03.626 --> 33:05.459
alternative pitfalls , treatment

33:05.459 --> 33:07.237
options that are effective less

33:07.237 --> 33:11.210
expensive and hopefully quicker . So

33:11.220 --> 33:13.387
that's a great question . We have over

33:13.387 --> 33:15.609
100 studies that are ongoing , and some

33:15.609 --> 33:17.331
of those look at the alternate

33:17.331 --> 33:19.331
treatment feathers the methods that

33:19.331 --> 33:21.553
have went through from from the concept

33:21.553 --> 33:24.420
stage to a bench test stage two more of

33:24.420 --> 33:28.060
a larger scale lab , uh , laboratory

33:28.070 --> 33:30.070
test . As soon as we worked through

33:30.070 --> 33:32.850
that process , we're , uh we're gonna

33:32.860 --> 33:35.390
attempt to find , uh , an alternative

33:35.390 --> 33:38.170
to pump and treat . So we are funding

33:38.340 --> 33:41.390
academia , private industry to do some

33:41.390 --> 33:43.612
of the research in that area to find an

33:43.612 --> 33:45.723
alternate to pump and treat . I'll be

33:45.723 --> 33:47.723
glad to sit down . We have a I said

33:47.723 --> 33:49.946
there's over 100 different studies that

33:49.946 --> 33:52.112
you guys help us fund through our sort

33:52.112 --> 33:54.820
of e S p c p research programs that

33:54.830 --> 33:57.100
that are paying some dividends . But

33:57.100 --> 34:00.680
it's it's still in the bench test stage ,

34:00.680 --> 34:02.950
if you will . If the chairman tells me

34:02.950 --> 34:04.950
just to follow up just a little bit

34:04.950 --> 34:08.560
over thank you .

34:08.570 --> 34:11.880
Uh , of course , get that . Thank you .

34:11.890 --> 34:13.834
So the waste produced from pumping

34:13.834 --> 34:15.834
treat in the form of FIFA saturated

34:15.834 --> 34:18.057
filters is hard to dispose of , uh , in

34:18.057 --> 34:20.279
a way that does not potentially lead to

34:20.279 --> 34:22.390
further environmental contamination .

34:22.390 --> 34:24.501
Can you elaborate ? Elaborate More on

34:24.501 --> 34:26.668
your disposal method methods And how D

34:26.668 --> 34:28.501
o d is ensuring that once p Foss

34:28.501 --> 34:30.723
contaminants are removed , they are not

34:30.723 --> 34:32.779
released back into the environment .

34:32.779 --> 34:34.960
Mhm . So it's a great question . Were

34:34.960 --> 34:37.840
we follow the , uh , disposal guidance

34:37.840 --> 34:39.840
that exists through E P A or and or

34:39.840 --> 34:41.930
state standards . And so So when we

34:41.930 --> 34:45.340
collect a media that has , uh , P fast

34:45.340 --> 34:47.750
containing it such as a gas filter , uh ,

34:47.760 --> 34:49.982
that we will process that in accordance

34:49.982 --> 34:52.740
with the permit that is , that is given

34:52.740 --> 34:54.629
to whether it's the Department of

34:54.629 --> 34:56.629
Defense runs that water treatment ,

34:56.629 --> 34:59.480
wastewater treatment plant or our

34:59.480 --> 35:01.591
private partners or the city . And so

35:01.591 --> 35:04.310
those those media then are are disposed

35:04.310 --> 35:08.050
of in a regulated , uh , permitted , uh ,

35:08.060 --> 35:10.171
landfill and in accordance with those

35:10.171 --> 35:13.100
standards and we , uh , e p A does have

35:13.100 --> 35:15.330
a guidance out . They had it out for

35:15.330 --> 35:17.330
comment . We provide comments , and

35:17.330 --> 35:19.660
we're waiting for the disposal guidance

35:19.670 --> 35:22.030
to further get caught up on . All right .

35:22.030 --> 35:24.308
Thank you , madam Chair , I yield back .

35:24.340 --> 35:26.451
Thank you , gentlemen . Nields back .

35:26.451 --> 35:28.562
Thank you . Mr . Taleggio . Mr . Case

35:28.562 --> 35:30.784
you are recognized for five minutes for

35:30.784 --> 35:34.210
your questions . Thank you very

35:34.210 --> 35:37.730
much , Madam Chair . Mr .

35:37.730 --> 35:41.180
Kramer . Um , I have a specific

35:41.180 --> 35:43.291
situation here in Hawaii , which is a

35:43.291 --> 35:45.670
great concern for Hawaii , but may well

35:45.670 --> 35:48.640
be a broader concern across the country .

35:48.650 --> 35:51.090
Here in Hawaii are Hawaii . State

35:51.090 --> 35:53.201
Department of Health has had multiple

35:53.201 --> 35:55.423
episodes in which we have not been able

35:55.423 --> 35:57.590
to access permissions to do testing at

35:57.590 --> 35:59.646
military facilities and properties .

35:59.646 --> 36:01.701
This is major here because we have a

36:01.701 --> 36:03.701
tremendous military footprint , all

36:03.701 --> 36:06.090
services that has been here for a long ,

36:06.090 --> 36:08.670
long time . So Century plus Scofield

36:08.670 --> 36:10.837
barracks , for example , with the Army

36:10.837 --> 36:13.059
is at over a century old and is a major

36:13.059 --> 36:15.580
area . From that perspective , our

36:15.580 --> 36:17.469
Hawaii Department of Health has a

36:17.469 --> 36:19.524
current grant from the Environmental

36:19.524 --> 36:21.691
Protection Agency to do a study of the

36:21.691 --> 36:23.580
fast in wastewater biosolids from

36:23.580 --> 36:25.358
wastewater treatment plants and

36:25.358 --> 36:28.420
landfill A leech it across our state to

36:28.420 --> 36:30.531
state wide project . Our plans are to

36:30.531 --> 36:32.253
sample six landfills and eight

36:32.253 --> 36:34.420
wastewater treatment plants as well as

36:34.420 --> 36:36.642
soils . Were wastewater treatment plant

36:36.642 --> 36:39.300
biosolids are composer to use as a soil

36:39.310 --> 36:41.960
amendment . This is critical for us

36:41.960 --> 36:45.650
because our water supply is Cartesian

36:45.650 --> 36:47.594
comes from aquifers and the actors

36:47.594 --> 36:50.080
don't much care about where the

36:50.090 --> 36:52.146
leaching water comes from . And as a

36:52.146 --> 36:54.368
matter of fact , it comes from military

36:54.368 --> 36:56.479
installations as well as non military

36:56.479 --> 36:58.646
installations . Um , so our Department

36:58.646 --> 37:00.757
of Health is in the process of making

37:00.757 --> 37:02.868
plans for sampling and analysis , but

37:02.868 --> 37:05.034
it's run into roadblocks from the Army

37:05.034 --> 37:07.146
and the Navy about allowing something

37:07.146 --> 37:09.312
at their facilities . My understanding

37:09.312 --> 37:11.479
is that the Army has straight out said

37:11.479 --> 37:13.257
no sampling of the water at the

37:13.257 --> 37:15.368
Scofield Birds . We sweat a treatment

37:15.368 --> 37:17.257
plant . Um , And as to the Navy ,

37:17.257 --> 37:19.530
there's been a long negotiation with

37:19.530 --> 37:22.250
the now fact Hawaii about whether we

37:22.250 --> 37:24.320
can similarly do the same thing with

37:24.330 --> 37:26.552
the Navy's wastewater treatment plant .

37:26.552 --> 37:28.719
Obviously , that's of great concern to

37:28.719 --> 37:30.997
me . And so I'm asking number one . Um ,

37:30.997 --> 37:33.219
do you have any specific information on

37:33.219 --> 37:35.900
why the military commanders on site in

37:35.900 --> 37:37.789
what he would not allow our state

37:37.789 --> 37:39.720
Department of Health to look uh ,

37:39.730 --> 37:42.940
statewide on on a broad basis ? Or for

37:42.940 --> 37:46.420
P fast concerns and then secondarily on

37:46.420 --> 37:49.540
the broader level , Um , what exactly

37:49.550 --> 37:52.250
is the Department of Defense is policy

37:52.260 --> 37:54.910
and instructions the base commanders to

37:54.910 --> 37:57.080
allow state and county governments to

37:57.080 --> 37:59.890
sample on on base or base facilities

37:59.890 --> 38:02.580
are for P fast . That might be not only

38:02.580 --> 38:04.636
a problem for the basis themselves ,

38:04.636 --> 38:08.030
but for the broader community . Mhm

38:09.020 --> 38:10.853
congressman as a Those are great

38:10.853 --> 38:12.964
questions and require a very detailed

38:12.964 --> 38:15.076
answer between services . And I'll be

38:15.076 --> 38:17.409
glad to work with you and your staff to ,

38:17.409 --> 38:20.260
uh , come up with an answer that is

38:20.260 --> 38:22.980
specific to the question about each of

38:22.980 --> 38:24.980
the military departments on a broad

38:24.980 --> 38:27.202
scale . You know , wastewater treatment

38:27.202 --> 38:29.369
plants are permitted facilities by the

38:29.369 --> 38:31.647
state . And so , uh , so there there's ,

38:31.647 --> 38:34.550
uh there's some responsibility on

38:34.550 --> 38:36.772
behalf of the military departments to ,

38:36.772 --> 38:38.883
uh , to to the regulators in that And

38:38.883 --> 38:41.360
and I'll be glad to , uh , have the

38:41.360 --> 38:43.416
military departments myself and your

38:43.416 --> 38:45.638
staff sit down and we can go through in

38:45.638 --> 38:47.860
detail . Uh , exactly what the concerns

38:47.860 --> 38:50.040
are , the local level over . Are you

38:50.040 --> 38:52.240
aware ? Are you aware of any specific

38:52.240 --> 38:54.240
instructions from the Department of

38:54.240 --> 38:57.520
Defense , too ? Uh , base commanders

38:57.530 --> 39:00.550
throughout the country , either , uh ,

39:00.560 --> 39:03.070
specifying that they should cooperate

39:03.070 --> 39:05.292
fully with state and county governments

39:05.292 --> 39:06.848
in terms of defence related

39:06.848 --> 39:09.181
identification concerns or the contrary ,

39:09.181 --> 39:11.770
that they should be very careful to do

39:11.770 --> 39:13.826
that or have to check back with home

39:13.826 --> 39:15.770
base before they do that . Are you

39:15.770 --> 39:17.881
aware of that ? On a national level ,

39:17.881 --> 39:20.130
do you have a policy ? Mhm . We have

39:20.130 --> 39:22.670
issued no policy to either side where

39:22.670 --> 39:26.310
it says you , uh you shouldn't

39:26.320 --> 39:28.940
speak with locals or or you should .

39:28.950 --> 39:31.006
It's a matter of routine that we are

39:31.006 --> 39:33.172
transparent with the local communities

39:33.172 --> 39:35.394
and and , uh , if need be , we'll we'll

39:35.394 --> 39:37.980
issue some guidance back out to , uh uh

39:37.990 --> 39:39.990
to ensure that they are transparent

39:39.990 --> 39:41.879
with the regulators . But we have

39:41.879 --> 39:44.190
issued No , uh , no deal D guidance

39:44.200 --> 39:46.890
that would , uh , would suggest that ,

39:46.900 --> 39:49.011
uh , we as the department offense are

39:49.011 --> 39:50.733
not going to talk to two state

39:50.733 --> 39:53.340
regulators about facilities forward .

39:54.320 --> 39:56.542
And I would I would thank you very much

39:56.542 --> 39:58.431
for that . First of all , I think

39:58.431 --> 40:00.598
that's exactly right thing to do under

40:00.598 --> 40:02.653
the circumstances . But I would also

40:02.653 --> 40:04.764
add that I would not want that policy

40:04.764 --> 40:06.598
or instruction or guidance to be

40:06.598 --> 40:08.709
limited to state regulated wastewater

40:08.709 --> 40:10.876
treatment plans There . There could be

40:10.880 --> 40:13.820
there could well be activities on basis

40:13.820 --> 40:16.020
of great concern beyond the basis

40:16.020 --> 40:18.110
themselves to state and and local

40:18.110 --> 40:21.010
health officials that are not regulated

40:21.010 --> 40:23.232
in any way , shape or form by the state

40:23.232 --> 40:25.343
and county government . So I wouldn't

40:25.343 --> 40:27.399
want that to be , you know , relying

40:27.399 --> 40:29.232
upon condition that it's a state

40:29.232 --> 40:31.290
regulated , uh , operation that you

40:31.290 --> 40:33.346
have to be transparent . And I think

40:33.346 --> 40:35.346
that's across the board . Would you

40:35.346 --> 40:37.780
agree with that ? Uh , sorry . What ?

40:37.790 --> 40:39.790
Yeah , we've got to take a holistic

40:39.790 --> 40:41.980
look at those potential sites for

40:41.980 --> 40:44.036
release and and , uh , and then make

40:44.036 --> 40:46.091
sure we take appropriate action with

40:46.091 --> 40:48.147
them . Okay , I appreciate that very

40:48.147 --> 40:50.258
much and would love to follow up with

40:50.258 --> 40:52.369
us to the Hawaii specific situation .

40:52.369 --> 40:54.424
But like I said , um , this may well

40:54.424 --> 40:56.647
need clarification across the country .

40:58.910 --> 41:02.260
Thank you . Thank you . Mr . Casey

41:02.260 --> 41:04.710
yields back . Um , now , I'd like to

41:04.710 --> 41:07.400
recognize Mr Rutherford for his five

41:07.400 --> 41:08.678
minutes of questions .

41:12.110 --> 41:14.480
Thank you , madam Chair . And thank you

41:14.480 --> 41:16.900
to the , uh , family members . I I

41:16.910 --> 41:19.640
really appreciate you appreciate all of

41:19.640 --> 41:23.220
you being here . I have three major

41:23.220 --> 41:25.590
military installations . Get my

41:25.590 --> 41:28.520
district school to to basically now ,

41:28.520 --> 41:30.750
one is already going through Barack and

41:30.750 --> 41:34.590
going back , uh , for the city . And

41:34.600 --> 41:37.000
so I guess , I guess , Mr Kramer , let

41:37.000 --> 41:39.440
me let me start with this . Um ,

41:41.110 --> 41:44.340
the naval air station ,

41:44.340 --> 41:48.140
Jacksonville . Uh , P five testing

41:48.150 --> 41:51.110
on November 9th , they let her out

41:51.120 --> 41:54.440
December 7th of 20 uh , saying that

41:54.440 --> 41:57.030
they had tested and there was , uh , no

41:57.030 --> 42:00.340
preface , uh , contaminants

42:01.510 --> 42:05.230
located . But I know there's also a

42:05.700 --> 42:08.730
a policy that d o d a implemented that

42:08.730 --> 42:10.841
we're going to do testing every three

42:10.841 --> 42:14.410
years . I believe , uh , can can you

42:14.410 --> 42:16.410
tell me how the roll out of that is

42:16.410 --> 42:18.132
going through all of the d o d

42:18.132 --> 42:22.080
installations after what we had ,

42:22.080 --> 42:23.230
I guess one year .

42:26.500 --> 42:29.150
So we we did initial testing on , uh ,

42:29.160 --> 42:31.800
on all installations . Uh , and then

42:31.800 --> 42:34.130
there was a follow on policy that that

42:34.130 --> 42:35.908
went out and said that we would

42:35.908 --> 42:39.600
periodically tested And , uh , it's

42:39.610 --> 42:41.840
by it's by the military departments .

42:41.840 --> 42:44.062
We , as the department offense or not ,

42:44.062 --> 42:46.340
are not mandating a list of , you know ,

42:46.340 --> 42:48.340
one to end list of installations by

42:48.340 --> 42:50.820
year . But we went instructions issued

42:50.820 --> 42:52.876
to the military departments was that

42:52.876 --> 42:54.820
it's not a one time test . All the

42:54.820 --> 42:56.876
water , which is where we identified

42:56.876 --> 42:58.987
the 1st , 20 plus sites . And then it

42:58.987 --> 43:01.840
was increased a few of those that have

43:01.840 --> 43:04.260
drinking water sources that exceeded

43:04.270 --> 43:06.270
the past we were then providing the

43:06.270 --> 43:08.810
treatment . We realized that that , as

43:08.820 --> 43:11.260
as was mentioned earlier groundwater

43:11.260 --> 43:13.560
moves . Uh , and so in the aquifers ,

43:13.560 --> 43:15.910
they're not indiscriminate . And so so

43:15.910 --> 43:17.966
we did is to follow on guidance that

43:17.966 --> 43:20.132
said , you know , periodically go back

43:20.132 --> 43:22.188
in and re test , uh , and and and it

43:22.188 --> 43:24.410
really it's the greatest concern places

43:24.410 --> 43:26.632
you're gonna have to do more frequently

43:26.632 --> 43:28.799
than not , uh , where there's a larger

43:28.799 --> 43:31.021
a higher concentration of PFS that that

43:31.021 --> 43:34.140
have been used , okay . And at the BRAC

43:34.140 --> 43:37.880
facilities that I think Cecil

43:37.880 --> 43:41.200
Field N A s , uh , Naval Air Station

43:41.200 --> 43:44.430
Cecil Field in Jacksonville . Uh ,

43:45.500 --> 43:47.667
went back in the first round of BRAC .

43:47.667 --> 43:51.650
I believe back in 1991 something like

43:51.650 --> 43:54.830
that . Are they doing preface testing

43:54.830 --> 43:58.830
at those sites as well ? And because

43:58.830 --> 44:00.774
I didn't get a similar letter from

44:00.774 --> 44:04.470
anybody about , uh , Cecil Field like I

44:04.470 --> 44:06.010
did in A S Jacks

44:08.910 --> 44:11.077
talking about fully transferred land ,

44:11.077 --> 44:13.650
probably . It's fully transferred land

44:13.650 --> 44:17.180
that's gone back . We

44:17.190 --> 44:19.940
we are testing . And , uh , I was just

44:19.950 --> 44:22.061
what I was asking the staff . Here is

44:22.061 --> 44:24.283
the letter you're referring to . What ?

44:24.283 --> 44:26.506
That it was in a public notice letter .

44:26.506 --> 44:29.310
Uh , that was That was issued ?

44:29.990 --> 44:32.330
Yes . This This was basically a letter

44:32.330 --> 44:34.441
from the commanding officer and N A s

44:34.441 --> 44:36.880
Jacks to . Well , actually , it's all

44:36.880 --> 44:40.680
their building , uh , occupants . And I

44:40.680 --> 44:42.847
got a copy of it and says , you know ,

44:42.847 --> 44:45.310
our testing is done . No , no . P Foss

44:45.310 --> 44:48.020
located , but that's an N a s . Jack's

44:48.020 --> 44:51.390
main side . I'm wondering about the

44:51.400 --> 44:54.690
BRAC facility . That is now that

44:54.690 --> 44:57.290
property's been transferred back . Are

44:57.290 --> 44:59.457
you looking at that , or does the city

44:59.457 --> 45:01.920
needs to go out and do that testing ?

45:02.390 --> 45:04.446
You know , as I mentioned that we're

45:04.446 --> 45:06.620
doing the testing . Uh , of those of

45:06.620 --> 45:08.564
those groundwater sources were out

45:08.564 --> 45:11.000
testing the wells , Uh , you know ,

45:11.000 --> 45:13.222
because there are closed installation ,

45:13.222 --> 45:15.111
there's no real assigned Garrison

45:15.111 --> 45:17.389
installation commander for that letter .

45:17.389 --> 45:19.556
So I was asking , and so we can we can

45:19.556 --> 45:21.611
make sure that , uh , that those the

45:21.611 --> 45:23.833
results that we have are made available

45:23.833 --> 45:26.000
to you , Congressman . Thank you . I'd

45:26.000 --> 45:28.222
love to know about that . And finally ,

45:28.222 --> 45:30.444
let me ask this really quickly . I know

45:30.444 --> 45:32.556
my time is running out . I want to go

45:32.556 --> 45:34.611
back to something the chairwoman was

45:34.611 --> 45:36.667
asking you about earlier . About the

45:36.667 --> 45:38.889
funding that's been appropriated . Your

45:38.889 --> 45:40.778
ability to expend those funds and

45:40.778 --> 45:43.000
whether you can extend more . I want to

45:43.000 --> 45:45.750
follow up on that mask . Also , is

45:45.750 --> 45:48.220
there a list or can you give us an idea

45:48.220 --> 45:50.387
of what you've been able to accomplish

45:50.387 --> 45:53.110
with those , uh , with those funds that

45:53.110 --> 45:55.920
you've already had ? What ? You know

45:55.920 --> 45:58.198
what ? Facilities have been cleaned up ?

45:58.198 --> 46:00.470
What ? You know , exactly how was the

46:00.470 --> 46:02.920
money spent and what are the successes

46:02.920 --> 46:06.190
that we're seeing , Congressman , that

46:06.200 --> 46:08.422
those are That's a great question . And

46:08.422 --> 46:11.640
we will , uh it's too lengthy for me to

46:11.640 --> 46:13.807
talk about today . Our successes and ,

46:13.807 --> 46:15.751
well , uh , we will provide to the

46:15.751 --> 46:17.862
subcommittee to , in fact , the whole

46:17.862 --> 46:19.700
committee , uh , a list of the

46:19.700 --> 46:22.180
expenditures , uh , prior year

46:22.180 --> 46:24.402
appropriations where we're going , what

46:24.402 --> 46:26.624
we believe is accomplished . What phase

46:26.624 --> 46:28.791
were in , uh , in the circle process .

46:28.791 --> 46:31.069
And and , uh , and going forward . And ,

46:31.069 --> 46:34.110
uh , we're glad to do that . Okay .

46:34.120 --> 46:36.610
Thank thank you very much . But , madam

46:36.610 --> 46:38.721
chair , I see my family's run down on

46:38.721 --> 46:41.090
your back . Thank you . The gentleman

46:41.090 --> 46:43.320
yields back , and yes , uh , if you

46:43.320 --> 46:45.431
could provide that for the record and

46:45.431 --> 46:47.431
that way we can make sure that that

46:47.431 --> 46:49.542
information is distributed to all the

46:49.542 --> 46:52.070
members . Uh , just not killing . Thank

46:52.070 --> 46:54.080
you very much . Okay , Miss . Miss

46:54.080 --> 46:57.790
Spring , do you recommend it's angry ?

46:57.800 --> 47:00.180
You're recognized for five minutes of

47:00.180 --> 47:03.060
questions . Thank you , madam . Sure .

47:03.060 --> 47:05.227
I'm happy to take your recommendations

47:05.227 --> 47:08.070
as well . So , um uh , thank you so

47:08.070 --> 47:10.126
much for holding this hearing . It's

47:10.126 --> 47:12.126
just such a difficult and important

47:12.126 --> 47:14.292
topic . And I appreciate , um , all of

47:14.292 --> 47:16.348
you , uh , the witness is being here

47:16.348 --> 47:18.514
with us today . So , um , on the d o d

47:18.514 --> 47:20.626
side , I I know people have been kind

47:20.626 --> 47:22.792
of edging around this question , but I

47:22.792 --> 47:25.014
don't have a good understanding on it .

47:25.014 --> 47:27.510
Um , when will will the d o d complete

47:27.510 --> 47:29.677
the testing for every military base or

47:29.677 --> 47:32.750
Brak base that is suspected of a P fast

47:32.750 --> 47:36.650
problem ? Mm . We are on track to ,

47:36.660 --> 47:39.660
uh , to complete all of the , uh , the

47:39.660 --> 47:41.660
initial assessments . By the end of

47:41.660 --> 47:45.570
2023 we had some some slight delay

47:45.570 --> 47:49.010
with with the pandemic access getting

47:49.010 --> 47:50.732
getting folks out there , uh ,

47:50.732 --> 47:52.788
originally , we thought we would get

47:52.788 --> 47:55.160
done 22 but will be 2023 . Uh , we'll

47:55.160 --> 47:57.382
complete all of the initial assessments

47:57.382 --> 47:59.104
and then move on . But as as I

47:59.104 --> 48:01.438
mentioned earlier . We have tested , uh ,

48:01.438 --> 48:03.940
drinking water sources , uh , which our

48:03.950 --> 48:05.894
utmost concern . And so So , while

48:05.894 --> 48:08.006
we're continuing to do the assessment

48:08.006 --> 48:10.006
of all locations , we we have taken

48:10.006 --> 48:12.330
actions , uh , to remove the fasts and

48:12.330 --> 48:14.980
those in all places where we have , uh

48:14.990 --> 48:17.580
we found that the people have succeeded

48:17.580 --> 48:20.900
the lifetime health advisory . So just

48:20.900 --> 48:23.011
so I understand that , um I mean , we

48:23.011 --> 48:25.410
do have basis . I'm from Maine , So we

48:25.410 --> 48:28.630
have BRAC bases that did have , um ,

48:28.640 --> 48:31.410
air installations , um , lowering Air

48:31.410 --> 48:33.243
Force Base , Brunswick Naval Air

48:33.243 --> 48:36.510
Station . So should I assume from that

48:36.520 --> 48:40.390
that you have yet to test those or

48:40.400 --> 48:43.550
you You . I mean , how do you know if

48:43.550 --> 48:45.661
there's a drinking water problem ? If

48:45.661 --> 48:47.717
you haven't tested their , I guess .

48:47.717 --> 48:51.020
And 2023 seems like a long time for a

48:51.020 --> 48:52.020
health hazard .

48:57.470 --> 48:59.748
So thanks , man . Marco from Air Force .

48:59.748 --> 49:01.970
So I can't speak to I'm sorry . I can't

49:01.970 --> 49:04.081
speak to all of the bases out there ,

49:04.081 --> 49:05.970
but I can say is that at our BRAC

49:05.970 --> 49:08.030
locations today we have 39 BRAC

49:08.030 --> 49:10.086
locations in the Air Force , and I'm

49:10.086 --> 49:12.141
happy to get with you later on which

49:12.141 --> 49:14.086
ones ? Those are , uh , that where

49:14.086 --> 49:16.252
we've done preliminary assessments and

49:16.252 --> 49:18.197
determined where we need to go and

49:18.197 --> 49:20.419
moved in a site inspection . Of those ,

49:20.419 --> 49:22.697
29 will move to remedial investigation .

49:22.697 --> 49:24.697
So what Mr Kramer was speaking to a

49:24.697 --> 49:26.697
minute ago is that by 2023 the site

49:26.697 --> 49:28.919
inspections will be complete . So we'll

49:28.919 --> 49:31.141
have the first two pieces of circle had

49:31.141 --> 49:33.030
done . Then we move into remedial

49:33.030 --> 49:35.086
investigation or actually are moving

49:35.086 --> 49:37.252
into remedial investigation , which is

49:37.252 --> 49:39.419
where we define the scope and and this

49:39.419 --> 49:41.640
and constituents of the plume , We'll

49:41.640 --> 49:44.350
have all of our remedial investigations

49:44.350 --> 49:46.580
awarded for the Air Force , at least by

49:46.580 --> 49:48.691
FY 25 . And I'm happy to get with you

49:48.691 --> 49:51.080
later to discuss specific installation .

49:52.270 --> 49:54.270
Okay , well , we'll follow up about

49:54.270 --> 49:57.730
those to see if if you mean what you

49:57.730 --> 49:59.840
have looked at so far . So given the

49:59.840 --> 50:02.100
fact that you don't know yet exactly

50:02.100 --> 50:04.044
how many there will be but sort of

50:04.044 --> 50:06.100
based on the percentage of ones that

50:06.100 --> 50:08.100
you've investigated , that you have

50:08.100 --> 50:10.100
problems . Do you have any ballpark

50:10.100 --> 50:12.322
figure about what the long term cost is

50:12.322 --> 50:15.690
going to be ? Yeah .

50:16.060 --> 50:19.690
Uh , So we we we have an estimate and

50:19.690 --> 50:22.390
and I think they uh , somewhere in the

50:22.390 --> 50:24.668
neighborhood just to do the cleanup is ,

50:24.668 --> 50:26.779
uh is probably going to end somewhere

50:26.779 --> 50:30.120
between 2,000,000,003 billion ish as we

50:30.120 --> 50:32.680
go along , and and until we know what

50:32.690 --> 50:35.040
the what the magnitude of of the

50:35.040 --> 50:37.330
cleanup is gonna be , uh , the

50:37.340 --> 50:39.340
procedures that we're gonna use And

50:39.340 --> 50:41.870
then how many of those locations over

50:41.870 --> 50:45.130
over the next 5 to 7 year timeframe ?

50:45.130 --> 50:47.297
It's It's really hard to pin that down

50:47.297 --> 50:49.710
until we get further further down in

50:49.710 --> 50:52.043
the circle of process to get that spine .

50:52.043 --> 50:54.980
I granularity , uh , over .

50:56.560 --> 50:59.650
Um Okay , so , um , we we know about at

50:59.650 --> 51:01.706
least one situation , I guess in New

51:01.706 --> 51:04.350
Mexico , where a dairy farm was near

51:04.360 --> 51:07.210
base and was severely contaminated .

51:07.220 --> 51:09.940
And I've experienced other situations

51:09.940 --> 51:12.800
in our state , not necessarily from a

51:12.800 --> 51:14.856
military use , but where preface has

51:14.856 --> 51:17.550
been on the land . And , um , it's so

51:17.550 --> 51:19.606
destructive for the farmer , for the

51:19.606 --> 51:21.828
animals , for the groundwater . Um , my

51:21.828 --> 51:24.570
understanding is that the FY 21 nd a

51:24.580 --> 51:26.691
requires the Department of Defense in

51:26.691 --> 51:28.930
conjunction with the USDA to notify

51:28.930 --> 51:31.270
farmers when you find a situation in

51:31.270 --> 51:33.437
the drinking water . Have you done any

51:33.437 --> 51:35.490
notifications in the area ? um , is

51:35.490 --> 51:37.657
there more than one situation than the

51:37.657 --> 51:39.990
one that's pretty widely known about in ,

51:39.990 --> 51:41.823
uh , I think it's New Mexico and

51:41.823 --> 51:44.260
Arizona . So we are in the process of

51:44.270 --> 51:46.530
we're working in concert with the

51:46.540 --> 51:50.030
department of AG to identify the the

51:50.040 --> 51:52.370
landowners of the farms one mile

51:52.370 --> 51:55.180
gradient of the base . Uh , and and

51:55.180 --> 51:58.110
those letters are now going out to , uh

51:58.120 --> 52:01.860
to to those farmers over . So

52:01.870 --> 52:05.480
Mr Carl's got more to add . Okay , uh ,

52:05.550 --> 52:07.661
I can speak for the Air Force , and I

52:07.661 --> 52:09.661
can tell you that the Air Force has

52:09.661 --> 52:11.661
approximately 2500 of these that we

52:11.661 --> 52:13.772
need to send out . We've issued about

52:13.772 --> 52:15.939
400 so far , and we expect to have the

52:15.939 --> 52:19.470
last 1500 to 2000 , um , out to all of

52:19.470 --> 52:21.526
those agricultural operations by the

52:21.526 --> 52:23.692
middle of April . Um , those are being

52:23.692 --> 52:25.914
done by our installations commanders so

52:25.914 --> 52:28.137
that those operators can then , as part

52:28.137 --> 52:30.192
of the community , can talk to their

52:30.192 --> 52:32.192
installation commander about what's

52:32.192 --> 52:34.192
going on and where the Air Force is

52:34.192 --> 52:33.930
going from there . So at least that

52:33.930 --> 52:36.263
gives you a sense of where one services ,

52:36.750 --> 52:38.806
right . And I appreciate that you're

52:38.806 --> 52:40.970
moving on that um although I guess I

52:40.970 --> 52:43.280
would ask overall thank you for um ,

52:43.290 --> 52:45.568
explaining what the Air Force is up to .

52:45.568 --> 52:47.990
But , um , it seems like it's just a

52:47.990 --> 52:50.212
process of sending out a letter . Is it

52:50.212 --> 52:52.434
more complicated than that ? Is there a

52:52.434 --> 52:54.434
reason that , for instance , you've

52:54.434 --> 52:56.546
only sent out a certain amount of the

52:56.546 --> 52:58.490
2500 that you need to do ? I don't

52:58.490 --> 52:58.150
really know what what what takes the

52:58.150 --> 53:02.020
time ? It's good . I again I speak for

53:02.020 --> 53:04.440
the Air Force . So So this is a

53:04.440 --> 53:06.607
difficult task to identify . What's an

53:06.607 --> 53:08.829
agricultural operation ? We went to the

53:08.829 --> 53:10.884
Department of Agriculture . We got a

53:10.884 --> 53:12.829
very substantial list of potential

53:12.829 --> 53:14.960
agricultural operations . We want to

53:14.960 --> 53:17.240
make sure that we we balance both

53:17.250 --> 53:19.360
alarming folks and informing folks .

53:19.360 --> 53:21.471
And so we needed to take time to make

53:21.471 --> 53:23.138
sure that the folks that were

53:23.138 --> 53:24.916
identified by the Department of

53:24.916 --> 53:27.138
Agriculture were still valid . And so ,

53:27.138 --> 53:28.916
in fact , I will give you as an

53:28.916 --> 53:31.193
anecdote . We found that in some cases ,

53:31.193 --> 53:33.193
um , those records weren't as up to

53:33.193 --> 53:34.971
date , and consequently , those

53:34.971 --> 53:37.193
operations were no longer in business ,

53:37.193 --> 53:37.140
and so we needed to go through , do

53:37.140 --> 53:39.510
those and then get these letters out to

53:39.510 --> 53:41.510
the installation commanders so that

53:41.510 --> 53:43.621
they could Could they could send them

53:43.621 --> 53:45.399
out to each of the agricultural

53:45.399 --> 53:47.454
operations . Thank you for that . My

53:47.454 --> 53:49.399
time is up , but I appreciate your

53:49.399 --> 53:51.454
answers . Thank you . Thank you , Mr

53:51.454 --> 53:53.566
Angry . The gentle lady yields back .

53:53.566 --> 53:55.454
Mr . Gonzalez . Welcome . You are

53:55.454 --> 53:57.177
recognized for five minutes of

53:57.177 --> 53:59.121
questions . Uh , thank you , madam

53:59.121 --> 54:01.343
Chair . You know , today I'm doing this

54:01.343 --> 54:03.566
hearing from Brooke Army Medical Center

54:03.566 --> 54:07.030
in , uh , in San Antonio . I previously

54:07.040 --> 54:09.430
had done a hearing from Laughlin Air

54:09.430 --> 54:11.541
Force Base . And my question to you ,

54:11.541 --> 54:14.090
Mr Kramer , is on Laughlin . So

54:14.090 --> 54:16.257
Laughlin Air Force Base is the largest

54:16.257 --> 54:18.534
air force training base in the country .

54:18.740 --> 54:21.900
In 2018 , it was found that the base

54:21.900 --> 54:25.330
had elevated P fast levels in the

54:25.330 --> 54:27.840
groundwater . What steps has d o . D

54:27.840 --> 54:30.500
taken to notify the active duty members

54:30.510 --> 54:32.566
and their families stationed there ?

54:33.040 --> 54:35.800
Sure . I'll , uh , since I have Mr Mark

54:35.800 --> 54:37.856
Carol here from the Air Force , I'll

54:37.856 --> 54:39.633
defer to him for to answer that

54:39.633 --> 54:41.856
question . Thank you very much for that

54:41.856 --> 54:44.078
question . So I will tell you that from

54:44.078 --> 54:44.030
the department of the Air Force

54:44.030 --> 54:46.141
standpoint , the safety and health of

54:46.141 --> 54:48.380
our airman , guardians , families and

54:48.380 --> 54:51.130
communities is first and foremost . So

54:51.130 --> 54:53.241
as we have approached this in the Air

54:53.241 --> 54:55.130
Force , we have a kind of a three

54:55.130 --> 54:56.963
pronged approach . And first and

54:56.963 --> 54:59.130
foremost , it's protect human health .

54:59.130 --> 55:01.352
How do we do that ? We do that by going

55:01.352 --> 55:03.519
out and identifying . Where do we have

55:03.519 --> 55:05.741
potential sources that might ultimately

55:05.741 --> 55:07.686
get into the drinking water of our

55:07.686 --> 55:09.852
airmen ? Their families , Uh , and the

55:09.852 --> 55:11.741
surrounding communities ? Um , at

55:11.741 --> 55:13.908
Laughlin . We've completed the initial

55:13.908 --> 55:16.074
preliminary assessment and most of the

55:16.074 --> 55:18.297
site inspection and the good news there

55:18.297 --> 55:20.463
is , Although there is elevated P fast

55:20.463 --> 55:23.090
people and purpose in the groundwater ,

55:23.100 --> 55:25.322
there isn't in the drinking water . And

55:25.322 --> 55:27.730
so the challenge we face across the

55:27.730 --> 55:29.897
duty of a particularly air forces have

55:29.897 --> 55:31.841
100 and 89 installations where the

55:31.841 --> 55:34.780
groundwater is above the the

55:34.790 --> 55:37.920
the 70 parts per trillion for Pecos and

55:37.930 --> 55:39.986
people in the photos . It's going to

55:39.986 --> 55:42.097
take us some time to get through each

55:42.097 --> 55:44.208
of those . And as Mr Kramer mentioned

55:44.208 --> 55:46.319
before , we do this on a risk basis .

55:46.319 --> 55:48.541
And so the good news that Laughlin is ,

55:48.541 --> 55:48.210
there's no connection between that

55:48.210 --> 55:50.432
groundwater and people who are drinking

55:50.432 --> 55:52.432
that water , which is our first and

55:52.432 --> 55:54.543
foremost concern , and so we've built

55:54.543 --> 55:56.599
them into the remedial investigation

55:56.599 --> 55:58.710
process , will continue through circa

55:58.710 --> 56:00.766
and ultimately get to addressing the

56:00.766 --> 56:02.543
groundwater . In the meantime ,

56:02.543 --> 56:04.321
continuing the tests that we've

56:04.321 --> 56:06.210
discussed to make sure that folks

56:06.210 --> 56:08.377
aren't aren't drinking water above the

56:08.377 --> 56:10.432
lifetime health advisory . Thank you

56:10.432 --> 56:12.599
for that . And I understand you know ,

56:12.599 --> 56:14.710
it's a large organization and there's

56:14.710 --> 56:16.877
there's quite a few installations that

56:16.877 --> 56:16.230
you're gonna have to go through . Is

56:16.230 --> 56:18.830
there a time table or an estimate

56:18.830 --> 56:21.920
timetable of when , uh , Laughlin will

56:21.920 --> 56:25.640
be addressed ? So what I I can't give

56:25.640 --> 56:27.890
you a date for Laughlin in terms . So

56:27.890 --> 56:30.112
the circle of processes we've discussed

56:30.112 --> 56:32.334
before is multi years along the way and

56:32.334 --> 56:34.390
the remedial investigation process ,

56:34.390 --> 56:36.557
because we're going to need to do so .

56:36.557 --> 56:38.779
Many of these will take several years .

56:38.779 --> 56:40.946
Uh , what so we don't have a list that

56:40.946 --> 56:42.946
says , Here's where each baseball's

56:42.946 --> 56:45.057
just yet , but I can tell you is that

56:45.057 --> 56:47.057
we're going to do about 10 per year

56:47.057 --> 56:49.350
between now and FY 27 to get through

56:49.350 --> 56:51.460
the remedial investigation phase of

56:51.460 --> 56:53.571
this or get those contracts awarded .

56:53.571 --> 56:55.793
What I will do is go back to their four

56:55.793 --> 56:57.904
civil engineer center and see if they

56:57.904 --> 56:57.730
do have , you know , when we think we

56:57.730 --> 57:00.000
can give you an answer to that . Thank

57:00.000 --> 57:01.778
you , sir . I appreciate that ,

57:01.778 --> 57:04.111
Congressman , if I might just interject .

57:04.111 --> 57:06.278
Yes . So the key point there is that ,

57:06.278 --> 57:08.222
as Mr Kroll said , is the drinking

57:08.222 --> 57:11.150
water . Uh , it does not have an

57:11.150 --> 57:13.440
experience of key pass in it . And and

57:13.440 --> 57:15.551
that's the important one . And we can

57:15.551 --> 57:17.773
put it just like any any , uh , Brack ,

57:17.830 --> 57:19.997
close insulation . There's land , land

57:19.997 --> 57:22.460
use controls you can put on . And so so

57:22.460 --> 57:24.682
are , you know , are real . Focus now ,

57:24.682 --> 57:26.793
is is is human health , and that's to

57:26.793 --> 57:29.940
get the drinking water down below . Uh ,

57:29.950 --> 57:32.260
what if there's an M . C . L or the

57:32.270 --> 57:36.060
lifetime health advisory over . Great .

57:36.070 --> 57:38.200
Thank you for that . You know , along

57:38.200 --> 57:40.720
the same lines , Mr Kramer . And your

57:40.720 --> 57:42.720
testimony , you stated we need a

57:42.720 --> 57:45.610
nationwide solution for the people s

57:45.610 --> 57:48.650
disposal and treatment . How can this

57:48.650 --> 57:51.460
committee and particularly help through

57:51.460 --> 57:53.170
the military construction

57:53.170 --> 57:54.559
appropriations process ?

57:56.930 --> 58:00.090
So I think the the next action is on e .

58:00.090 --> 58:03.350
P A . They put out for public comment .

58:03.360 --> 58:05.416
Their disposal guidance got a lot of

58:05.416 --> 58:07.416
comments back as I understand , And

58:07.416 --> 58:09.582
they're now reviewing those comments .

58:09.582 --> 58:09.280
And then they'll put the , uh , the

58:09.290 --> 58:11.860
document back out , Uh , based on the

58:11.870 --> 58:15.190
disposal methods that , uh , will be

58:15.190 --> 58:17.412
acceptable , that we would have to come

58:17.412 --> 58:19.357
back to the committee because they

58:19.357 --> 58:21.550
range anywhere from , uh , you know ,

58:21.560 --> 58:23.880
no incineration to some incineration .

58:23.880 --> 58:26.102
And so we gotta once we understand what

58:26.102 --> 58:28.960
the what the approved disposal methods

58:28.960 --> 58:32.140
are we ? Well , we really can't put a

58:32.140 --> 58:34.710
ballpark number on or or advise the

58:34.720 --> 58:36.998
subcommittee on on our next steps over .

58:36.998 --> 58:39.790
Uh , Okay . Thank you for that . Are

58:39.790 --> 58:40.957
you a bank manager ?

58:44.920 --> 58:46.698
Thank you , Mr . Gonzales . The

58:46.698 --> 58:48.920
gentleman yields back . Um , we are now

58:48.920 --> 58:51.530
going to begin a second round of

58:51.530 --> 58:53.586
questions for the first panel . Uh ,

58:53.586 --> 58:56.700
will reduce the question time for three

58:56.700 --> 58:58.910
minutes . And , uh and I know a number

58:58.910 --> 59:01.700
of members do have a question for the

59:01.700 --> 59:05.600
second round . Um , my , uh , my

59:05.600 --> 59:07.822
own first question for the second round

59:07.822 --> 59:09.767
is that Mr Kramer , the last major

59:09.767 --> 59:11.822
progress report from the Pathos Task

59:11.822 --> 59:13.980
Force was in March of 2020 and that's

59:13.990 --> 59:15.990
it's been nearly a year since we've

59:15.990 --> 59:18.212
received a substantive update . Can you

59:18.212 --> 59:20.268
tell us what the task force has been

59:20.268 --> 59:22.379
doing during that time . And when can

59:22.379 --> 59:22.240
we expect another official progress

59:22.240 --> 59:25.040
report ? Okay ,

59:25.520 --> 59:28.030
so the activities of the task force

59:28.030 --> 59:30.680
over the last year have mainly been ,

59:30.690 --> 59:34.160
uh , codifying standard policies and

59:34.160 --> 59:36.600
practices that we we wanted to put out

59:36.600 --> 59:38.940
across the entire Department of Defense

59:38.940 --> 59:41.051
Because one of one of the things that

59:41.051 --> 59:43.190
early on that the doctor iceberg

59:43.200 --> 59:45.200
realized when he established a task

59:45.200 --> 59:47.200
force were inconsistent application

59:47.200 --> 59:49.200
across the the entire d o D . So So

59:49.200 --> 59:51.340
most of the PFS task force , uh , in

59:51.340 --> 59:53.340
the last year was really focused on

59:53.340 --> 59:57.260
that funding the initial , uh , P A s

59:57.260 --> 01:00:00.020
s , uh , those sites , uh , you know ,

01:00:00.020 --> 01:00:02.690
the getting started on on all of the

01:00:02.700 --> 01:00:04.867
activities as we go down to the circle

01:00:04.867 --> 01:00:07.740
of process . But we do owe an update .

01:00:07.740 --> 01:00:09.907
I realized that , too , is preparation

01:00:09.907 --> 01:00:12.073
for this hearing that that it was over

01:00:12.073 --> 01:00:14.240
a year and I , in fact , talked to the

01:00:14.240 --> 01:00:16.240
staff earlier today about providing

01:00:16.240 --> 01:00:18.462
that update , and we'll we'll we'll get

01:00:18.462 --> 01:00:20.629
that to you shortly . God , what's the

01:00:20.629 --> 01:00:23.530
definition of short shortly ? My mom .

01:00:23.910 --> 01:00:27.520
Six weeks . Yes . Let's commit to 30

01:00:27.520 --> 01:00:30.670
days . Okay . Thank you . Um , Dr

01:00:30.670 --> 01:00:33.150
Hastings what specifically do you need

01:00:33.150 --> 01:00:35.317
from other agencies ? Whether that c p

01:00:35.317 --> 01:00:38.490
a , c , d , c or D o d to help you make

01:00:38.490 --> 01:00:40.490
the connection between these health

01:00:40.490 --> 01:00:42.601
conditions and the Fox exposure . And

01:00:42.601 --> 01:00:45.030
also Caiaphas is one of many types of

01:00:45.030 --> 01:00:47.086
toxic exposures that veterans suffer

01:00:47.086 --> 01:00:49.252
during their military service that can

01:00:49.252 --> 01:00:51.474
lead to serious health conditions . But

01:00:51.474 --> 01:00:53.530
be a seems to make it very difficult

01:00:53.530 --> 01:00:55.474
for veterans to prove those health

01:00:55.474 --> 01:00:55.210
conditions are linked to military

01:00:55.210 --> 01:00:57.370
service . So if you can also answer ,

01:00:57.370 --> 01:00:59.426
how does your post deployment health

01:00:59.426 --> 01:01:01.148
team work to improve how toxic

01:01:01.148 --> 01:01:03.314
exposures like P fast are evaluated by

01:01:03.314 --> 01:01:07.080
the V A , um , as far as what we

01:01:07.080 --> 01:01:09.190
need . Ma'am , I would like to take

01:01:09.190 --> 01:01:11.412
that for the record and give you a very

01:01:11.412 --> 01:01:13.468
thoughtful , considerate approach to

01:01:13.468 --> 01:01:15.246
that . Um , we have a very good

01:01:15.246 --> 01:01:17.468
relationship with G . O . D . In fact ,

01:01:17.468 --> 01:01:19.357
when I first , um , left military

01:01:19.357 --> 01:01:22.330
service , I served 33 years in the Army .

01:01:22.910 --> 01:01:26.570
Um , I came to V A to continue serving ,

01:01:26.580 --> 01:01:28.747
and the first thing that we did when I

01:01:28.747 --> 01:01:31.450
came here in 2017 was I was on the

01:01:31.450 --> 01:01:33.561
Deployment Health Working group , and

01:01:33.561 --> 01:01:35.672
we were talking about p focus at that

01:01:35.672 --> 01:01:37.783
time when it had just been designated

01:01:37.783 --> 01:01:41.060
as a hazardous substance . Um , we talk

01:01:41.060 --> 01:01:43.227
about that routinely at the deployment

01:01:43.227 --> 01:01:45.338
Health Working group . We look at the

01:01:45.338 --> 01:01:47.393
things that we need . We , um , as I

01:01:47.393 --> 01:01:49.560
said , have the toxicologist who works

01:01:49.560 --> 01:01:51.838
with our federal partners and academia .

01:01:51.838 --> 01:01:54.700
We monitor health related issues ,

01:01:54.700 --> 01:01:56.922
morbidity and mortality and health care

01:01:56.922 --> 01:01:59.580
utilization . So , um , I would like to

01:01:59.580 --> 01:02:01.524
give you a thoughtful , considered

01:02:01.524 --> 01:02:03.691
approach to that . And I would like to

01:02:03.691 --> 01:02:06.630
take that for the record , as far as we

01:02:06.630 --> 01:02:10.230
do for veterans to make them understand

01:02:10.230 --> 01:02:13.820
this , um , we we have training that we

01:02:13.820 --> 01:02:16.240
have done for our providers , and this

01:02:16.240 --> 01:02:19.390
would be our THS docs . Nurses that are

01:02:19.390 --> 01:02:22.620
taking care of of these , uh , these

01:02:22.620 --> 01:02:24.990
veterans , we want them to understand

01:02:24.990 --> 01:02:27.440
what questions they need to ask , um ,

01:02:27.440 --> 01:02:29.940
of their veteran how to discuss risk

01:02:29.940 --> 01:02:33.550
and , um , and other topics of this

01:02:33.550 --> 01:02:35.550
sword to help with regards to their

01:02:35.550 --> 01:02:38.520
health . Um , we also work with social

01:02:38.520 --> 01:02:40.353
media to get messages out to the

01:02:40.353 --> 01:02:43.910
veterans . We have put articles

01:02:43.910 --> 01:02:46.660
about per floor nated substances in our

01:02:46.660 --> 01:02:49.190
newsletters . We do have a very robust

01:02:49.190 --> 01:02:53.130
website that has many of the , uh , the

01:02:53.130 --> 01:02:55.520
environmental exposures of concern for

01:02:55.520 --> 01:02:58.060
veterans . It , um , covers everything

01:02:58.060 --> 01:03:01.110
from literally A to Z . Uh , and we do

01:03:01.110 --> 01:03:04.630
have one about to focus on our website .

01:03:04.640 --> 01:03:07.650
It is one of the things that we we keep

01:03:07.660 --> 01:03:09.660
rotating back to social media , the

01:03:09.660 --> 01:03:11.910
newsletters . We want veterans to know

01:03:11.910 --> 01:03:14.500
about this , um , so that they are

01:03:14.500 --> 01:03:16.980
aware and education again of our

01:03:16.980 --> 01:03:20.730
providers with regards to , uh ,

01:03:21.700 --> 01:03:24.230
we work closely with the V A to to look

01:03:24.230 --> 01:03:26.920
at What are the trends in , uh , in

01:03:26.920 --> 01:03:30.120
regards to claims ? And we've looked at

01:03:30.120 --> 01:03:32.730
the chlorinated compounds had less than

01:03:32.730 --> 01:03:35.470
20 claims so far , Um , that have come

01:03:35.470 --> 01:03:38.100
in . So we do monitor that , because

01:03:38.100 --> 01:03:40.322
sometimes that lets us know what things

01:03:40.322 --> 01:03:42.860
we need to look at next . Um , so in

01:03:42.860 --> 01:03:45.800
regards to your question , I guess the

01:03:45.800 --> 01:03:47.744
answer would be right Now , we are

01:03:47.744 --> 01:03:49.689
giving information to the veterans

01:03:49.689 --> 01:03:52.880
information to the providers . Um , we

01:03:52.880 --> 01:03:55.160
are looking for trends and in regards

01:03:55.160 --> 01:03:57.220
to what do we need and how ? How can

01:03:57.220 --> 01:03:59.410
you help us ? I will get you a written

01:03:59.410 --> 01:04:01.577
answer for that to make sure that it's

01:04:01.577 --> 01:04:03.750
a thoughtful , considered response .

01:04:04.390 --> 01:04:06.057
Thank you . I look forward to

01:04:06.057 --> 01:04:07.834
continuing our conversation . I

01:04:07.834 --> 01:04:09.970
appreciate that . Um Okay , Uh , my ,

01:04:09.980 --> 01:04:11.758
uh , my time has expired . Mr .

01:04:11.758 --> 01:04:13.702
Validate your recognized for three

01:04:13.702 --> 01:04:16.080
minutes . Thank you . Madam Chair , Um ,

01:04:16.090 --> 01:04:18.146
kind of follow down the same path as

01:04:18.146 --> 01:04:19.923
the chairwoman just went . What

01:04:19.923 --> 01:04:22.090
symptoms would a veteran have if he or

01:04:22.090 --> 01:04:24.423
she had significant defaults ? Exposure ?

01:04:24.990 --> 01:04:28.990
Um , sir , Um , the symptoms would not

01:04:28.990 --> 01:04:32.250
necessarily be just one symptom , so it

01:04:32.250 --> 01:04:34.210
could be a number of things . Um ,

01:04:34.220 --> 01:04:37.710
these can be endocrine disruptors .

01:04:37.720 --> 01:04:40.210
We have seen reports that they are

01:04:40.210 --> 01:04:42.780
related to hypothyroidism . We have

01:04:42.780 --> 01:04:44.836
really seen reports that they may be

01:04:44.836 --> 01:04:48.250
related to pregnancy issues . Um , we

01:04:48.250 --> 01:04:49.917
know that they can cause some

01:04:49.917 --> 01:04:52.410
disruption in the liver function tests .

01:04:52.590 --> 01:04:54.850
Um , there are some . There is some

01:04:54.850 --> 01:04:56.906
literature that says there may be an

01:04:56.906 --> 01:04:58.850
association with kidney cancer and

01:04:58.850 --> 01:05:00.906
testicular cancer , so there's not a

01:05:00.906 --> 01:05:02.628
one size fits all . That's why

01:05:02.628 --> 01:05:04.294
education of our providers is

01:05:04.294 --> 01:05:06.690
exceedingly important so that when they

01:05:06.690 --> 01:05:08.857
are doing environmental assessments or

01:05:08.857 --> 01:05:10.690
the veterans that they asked the

01:05:10.690 --> 01:05:13.020
appropriate questions . We do the same

01:05:13.020 --> 01:05:15.020
thing with Agent Orange . We do the

01:05:15.020 --> 01:05:17.242
same thing with with airborne hazards .

01:05:17.242 --> 01:05:20.190
We do the same thing with K two . Um ,

01:05:20.200 --> 01:05:22.256
there are certain things that may be

01:05:22.256 --> 01:05:24.422
associated . And so if they are seeing

01:05:24.422 --> 01:05:26.750
a veteran for Agent Orange , we will

01:05:26.760 --> 01:05:29.130
ask those questions that may be related

01:05:29.130 --> 01:05:31.550
to , um , the issues with Agent Orange ,

01:05:31.550 --> 01:05:34.180
for example , we may get lab tests for

01:05:34.180 --> 01:05:37.500
diabetes with regards to airborne

01:05:37.500 --> 01:05:40.160
hazards . We may think earlier about

01:05:40.160 --> 01:05:42.400
getting pulmonary function test . If it

01:05:42.400 --> 01:05:44.970
is a question about there with regards

01:05:44.970 --> 01:05:47.026
to too fast , we would look at their

01:05:47.026 --> 01:05:49.248
general health and probably get a panel

01:05:49.248 --> 01:05:51.248
of labs to see if there is anything

01:05:51.248 --> 01:05:53.640
that's unusual about their endocrine

01:05:53.640 --> 01:05:55.780
system . Their liver functions , if

01:05:55.780 --> 01:05:57.947
they're pregnant , would pay attention

01:05:57.947 --> 01:06:00.058
to those things that might be accused

01:06:00.058 --> 01:06:02.169
that they're having problems with pre

01:06:02.169 --> 01:06:04.480
eclampsia or a child that may have a

01:06:04.480 --> 01:06:06.740
low birth weight . All right , so it

01:06:06.740 --> 01:06:08.518
does that the additional health

01:06:08.518 --> 01:06:10.629
monitoring to the service members and

01:06:10.629 --> 01:06:12.851
families who drink and use water in the

01:06:12.851 --> 01:06:14.740
area in and around bases that are

01:06:14.740 --> 01:06:16.851
suspected or known to be contaminated

01:06:16.851 --> 01:06:19.320
with the photos . We are not doing any

01:06:19.320 --> 01:06:22.030
special monitoring . We are working

01:06:22.030 --> 01:06:24.197
with a T S d . Are they ? And they are

01:06:24.197 --> 01:06:26.363
doing the studies right now to look at

01:06:26.363 --> 01:06:28.363
those communities surrounding bases

01:06:28.363 --> 01:06:31.130
that have been contaminated is how is

01:06:31.130 --> 01:06:33.130
the d o d . Treating state P . Foss

01:06:33.130 --> 01:06:35.130
treating water standards . And what

01:06:35.130 --> 01:06:37.260
happens when those conflict with or

01:06:37.260 --> 01:06:39.482
differ from federal P . Foss advisories

01:06:39.482 --> 01:06:41.760
and recommendations or recommendations ?

01:06:45.780 --> 01:06:47.891
Sir , would that question be for me ,

01:06:47.891 --> 01:06:50.058
or would that be for D o d ? No one is

01:06:50.058 --> 01:06:52.360
directed towards Mr Kramer . Thanks .

01:06:52.370 --> 01:06:55.830
So so in the , uh , with respect

01:06:55.830 --> 01:06:59.520
to , uh , properly promulgated state

01:06:59.520 --> 01:07:01.570
drinking water standards and M c l

01:07:01.570 --> 01:07:03.790
maximum contaminant level . And we're

01:07:03.790 --> 01:07:05.957
the purveyor of the water . We produce

01:07:05.957 --> 01:07:08.680
the water by permit , and we'll we'll

01:07:08.690 --> 01:07:12.600
we'll meet that M c l limit . Uh , that

01:07:12.600 --> 01:07:15.770
was your question . So so with the

01:07:15.770 --> 01:07:18.280
conflict between , uh , federal

01:07:18.290 --> 01:07:20.401
lifetime advisory and state standards

01:07:20.401 --> 01:07:22.346
those places where were the permit

01:07:22.346 --> 01:07:25.530
holder ? We'll meet the stadium . Cl

01:07:25.530 --> 01:07:28.110
absent that . We'll meet the 70 parts

01:07:28.110 --> 01:07:30.190
per trillion . All right , perfect

01:07:30.190 --> 01:07:32.690
flight . Well , you're back . Trust my

01:07:32.690 --> 01:07:35.300
time . Thank you , madam Chair . Thank

01:07:35.300 --> 01:07:37.633
you . Mr . Valdo . The gentleman yields .

01:07:37.633 --> 01:07:39.633
Excuse me . Um yeah . Mr . Valdez .

01:07:39.633 --> 01:07:42.130
Gentleman yields back . And , uh , Miss

01:07:42.130 --> 01:07:44.241
Pingree , you are recognized for five

01:07:44.241 --> 01:07:47.380
minutes . Um thank you , madam . Cheer .

01:07:47.390 --> 01:07:51.250
Excuse me . Three minutes . I'm on it .

01:07:51.260 --> 01:07:54.790
Um so thank you . Back to the D o D uh ,

01:07:55.380 --> 01:07:58.790
the NBA The FY 29 21 n d o a .

01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:00.970
Requires the d o d to stop procuring

01:08:00.970 --> 01:08:02.637
cookware , cooking utensils ,

01:08:02.637 --> 01:08:04.803
upholstered furniture and carpets made

01:08:04.803 --> 01:08:08.300
with pita on PFS . Pippa's um , have

01:08:08.300 --> 01:08:10.550
you stopped procuring those items ? Do

01:08:10.550 --> 01:08:12.494
you plan to extend it to any other

01:08:12.494 --> 01:08:14.710
items that contain P fast ? Where are

01:08:14.710 --> 01:08:15.710
you with that ?

01:08:19.070 --> 01:08:21.292
So I'll take that for the record , uh ,

01:08:21.292 --> 01:08:23.403
you know , come out of our , uh , our

01:08:23.403 --> 01:08:25.570
acquisition , folks . They'll those to

01:08:25.570 --> 01:08:27.681
those guidance to , uh to , uh to the

01:08:27.681 --> 01:08:30.014
acquisition types , those that you know ,

01:08:30.014 --> 01:08:31.910
d l a type that procure goods and

01:08:31.910 --> 01:08:35.740
services for us and , uh , over Got

01:08:35.740 --> 01:08:39.370
it . Um uh , so back to one of the

01:08:39.370 --> 01:08:41.092
things Mr . Valdo said I don't

01:08:41.092 --> 01:08:43.259
completely understand on this question

01:08:43.259 --> 01:08:45.037
around the state drinking water

01:08:45.037 --> 01:08:44.930
standard . What does that mean when you

01:08:44.930 --> 01:08:48.600
say if we are the permit holder , Mhm .

01:08:49.670 --> 01:08:53.290
If the , uh if they department one of

01:08:53.290 --> 01:08:55.068
the military departments in the

01:08:55.068 --> 01:08:56.957
Department of Defense , uh is the

01:08:56.957 --> 01:08:59.370
purveyor producer of that clean

01:08:59.370 --> 01:09:01.592
drinking water that we have to meet the

01:09:01.592 --> 01:09:03.703
clean drinking water standards or the

01:09:03.703 --> 01:09:05.926
state standards ? Uh , if we're not the

01:09:05.926 --> 01:09:08.037
purveyor , the producer of that clean

01:09:08.037 --> 01:09:10.290
drinking water , Uh , that we rely on

01:09:10.290 --> 01:09:12.480
others to meet those those standards .

01:09:12.490 --> 01:09:15.220
Uh , and and generally speaking , uh ,

01:09:15.230 --> 01:09:17.341
you know , if if we rely on the local

01:09:17.341 --> 01:09:19.452
community to produce the water , then

01:09:19.452 --> 01:09:21.286
then they have to meet their own

01:09:21.286 --> 01:09:23.341
drinking water standards for us . We

01:09:23.341 --> 01:09:25.174
don't enforce . What if we don't

01:09:25.174 --> 01:09:27.341
enforce those standards back on on the

01:09:27.341 --> 01:09:29.452
local community ? Okay , I understand

01:09:29.452 --> 01:09:31.619
that . But let's say you're the source

01:09:31.619 --> 01:09:33.870
of the contamination , and the local

01:09:33.870 --> 01:09:36.030
communities or nearby wells are

01:09:36.030 --> 01:09:39.390
contaminated at a level um , related to

01:09:39.390 --> 01:09:42.250
the state requirement . Do you , uh ,

01:09:42.260 --> 01:09:44.540
do you clean up to meet the state

01:09:44.540 --> 01:09:46.920
requirement , or do you just say , Well ,

01:09:46.920 --> 01:09:49.380
we didn't . That's your water supply .

01:09:49.380 --> 01:09:51.380
Even if you're the contaminate . Er

01:09:54.270 --> 01:09:57.000
So we we are you referring to like

01:09:57.010 --> 01:10:00.640
Private Wells ? Uh , surrounding an

01:10:00.640 --> 01:10:02.860
insulation is that that's a good

01:10:02.860 --> 01:10:04.916
example . To understand the question

01:10:04.916 --> 01:10:07.870
before we sure

01:10:08.760 --> 01:10:11.980
eight units . So I'll try to help with

01:10:11.980 --> 01:10:14.610
that . So So under the Safe Drinking

01:10:14.610 --> 01:10:16.560
Water Act , if the Department of

01:10:16.560 --> 01:10:18.227
Defense or , in my case , the

01:10:18.227 --> 01:10:19.949
Department of the Air Force is

01:10:19.949 --> 01:10:21.893
producing water like a local water

01:10:21.893 --> 01:10:23.727
utility , would we must follow a

01:10:23.727 --> 01:10:25.893
properly promulgated state standard in

01:10:25.893 --> 01:10:27.893
that drinking water production . If

01:10:27.893 --> 01:10:27.850
we're talking about things other than

01:10:27.850 --> 01:10:29.794
where we're producing the drinking

01:10:29.794 --> 01:10:31.683
water , then we follow the circle

01:10:31.683 --> 01:10:33.850
process . And the circle process right

01:10:33.850 --> 01:10:33.780
now allows us to take action at 70

01:10:33.780 --> 01:10:37.620
parts per trillion . Got it .

01:10:37.630 --> 01:10:41.040
Um , so that that that process and that

01:10:41.040 --> 01:10:43.096
change in that number has to do with

01:10:43.096 --> 01:10:45.151
the actions by the E p . A that have

01:10:45.151 --> 01:10:47.207
yet to occur . So that's why you can

01:10:47.207 --> 01:10:49.151
follow that other number , Is that

01:10:49.151 --> 01:10:51.429
correct ? Yes , ma'am . That's correct .

01:10:51.460 --> 01:10:53.680
Okay , my time is over . Thank you .

01:10:54.060 --> 01:10:57.150
Appreciate your answers . Thank you .

01:10:57.150 --> 01:10:59.039
Mr . Penguin , The generator that

01:10:59.039 --> 01:11:01.206
yields back . Um , Mr Rutherford , you

01:11:01.206 --> 01:11:03.428
recognized for three minutes . Uh , you

01:11:03.428 --> 01:11:04.983
have additional questions .

01:11:08.660 --> 01:11:12.260
Thank you , Madam Chair ? Yes . Uh , if

01:11:12.260 --> 01:11:15.850
I could Mr . Kramer , I know in July

01:11:15.850 --> 01:11:19.220
2019 , Secretary Esper gig When they

01:11:19.220 --> 01:11:21.930
created this task force talk about

01:11:21.930 --> 01:11:24.600
really four things researching the

01:11:24.600 --> 01:11:26.880
alternative to firefighting phones .

01:11:27.260 --> 01:11:28.871
We've talked a lot about the

01:11:28.871 --> 01:11:31.130
remediation and clean up . What I'm

01:11:31.130 --> 01:11:34.750
curious about is the number one element

01:11:34.750 --> 01:11:37.600
that that was talked about here was

01:11:37.600 --> 01:11:40.990
finding alternatives . Uh , and I know

01:11:40.990 --> 01:11:44.020
that's why I'm going . Uh , are there

01:11:44.020 --> 01:11:46.187
any successes out there very quickly .

01:11:46.187 --> 01:11:49.140
Can you tell me , uh , you know , I

01:11:49.150 --> 01:11:51.261
think it's important that we stop the

01:11:51.261 --> 01:11:53.560
damage that we were doing . Uh , in

01:11:53.560 --> 01:11:57.420
fact , in the fiscal year 20 India a

01:11:57.430 --> 01:12:00.980
Congress directed that we stopped using

01:12:01.450 --> 01:12:05.410
P Foster , uh , and the A triple F

01:12:05.420 --> 01:12:08.830
uh , contaminants , except for ships

01:12:08.830 --> 01:12:11.720
that are out at sea . Uh , so can you

01:12:11.720 --> 01:12:13.831
tell me two things ? Number one ? How

01:12:13.831 --> 01:12:15.831
are we doing on the phase out ? And

01:12:15.831 --> 01:12:19.570
have we found something to replace it ?

01:12:20.150 --> 01:12:23.920
So we've , uh the actions we've

01:12:23.920 --> 01:12:26.880
taken to the complete stop use 2024 .

01:12:26.880 --> 01:12:29.110
We're working towards that at that time

01:12:29.110 --> 01:12:31.810
line . And so So the immediate actions

01:12:31.820 --> 01:12:34.770
we've we have directed that , uh , the

01:12:34.780 --> 01:12:38.270
CH chain people . It's the largest . A

01:12:38.270 --> 01:12:40.103
higher concentration of PFS . We

01:12:40.103 --> 01:12:43.280
replaced that with a with a lower C six

01:12:43.290 --> 01:12:45.750
chains . We're trying to reduce the

01:12:45.750 --> 01:12:47.972
level of P fast within the firefighting

01:12:47.972 --> 01:12:50.380
foams . Uh , that was step one . Step

01:12:50.380 --> 01:12:52.491
two that we're going after is through

01:12:52.491 --> 01:12:54.713
the sort of the STC process . We've got

01:12:54.713 --> 01:12:56.730
six candidates , uh , that that are

01:12:56.730 --> 01:12:59.950
proving to be , uh , worthy of follow

01:12:59.950 --> 01:13:02.172
on tests . And and the worthiness is is

01:13:02.172 --> 01:13:04.580
we want to rapidly put out , uh , fuels

01:13:04.580 --> 01:13:06.580
fire that being jet fuel , gasoline

01:13:06.580 --> 01:13:08.691
fire . So we look into two of those ,

01:13:08.691 --> 01:13:10.960
Uh , so the 1st 1st benchmark is 20

01:13:10.960 --> 01:13:13.182
square foot . Can you put it out within

01:13:13.182 --> 01:13:15.349
30 seconds ? We've got sick candidates

01:13:15.349 --> 01:13:17.404
that have passed that . Then we move

01:13:17.404 --> 01:13:19.460
down the spectrum to a little larger

01:13:19.460 --> 01:13:21.182
test the 400 square foot , and

01:13:21.182 --> 01:13:23.349
ultimately , this summer , we're going

01:13:23.349 --> 01:13:25.571
to do a 1200 square foot uncontrolled .

01:13:25.571 --> 01:13:28.530
And FX is un run , uh , 1200 square

01:13:28.530 --> 01:13:30.880
foot test out in China lake . And may ,

01:13:31.050 --> 01:13:33.370
uh , those , uh , you know , the six

01:13:33.370 --> 01:13:35.703
candidates that have made this way . So ?

01:13:35.703 --> 01:13:37.870
So we're cautiously optimistic that we

01:13:37.870 --> 01:13:40.800
can find , uh , of replacement flooring

01:13:40.800 --> 01:13:43.270
free replacement . That also puts out

01:13:43.280 --> 01:13:45.950
not just jet a fuel fire , which ,

01:13:45.960 --> 01:13:47.910
which seems to be the easy one .

01:13:47.910 --> 01:13:49.966
Because there's kerosene based , the

01:13:49.966 --> 01:13:52.243
harder one is the gasoline based fires .

01:13:52.243 --> 01:13:54.243
So that's that's really controlling

01:13:54.243 --> 01:13:56.021
entity . Now , we're cautiously

01:13:56.021 --> 01:13:59.760
optimistic we get there , Um uh , so

01:13:59.760 --> 01:14:02.260
very quickly . So my my time is about

01:14:02.260 --> 01:14:05.880
to run out . I appreciate that . So my

01:14:05.880 --> 01:14:09.020
2020 for is the is the mission to be

01:14:09.020 --> 01:14:11.770
completely out of the Foss usage .

01:14:12.140 --> 01:14:14.560
We're simply down to the C six level

01:14:16.140 --> 01:14:20.100
completely out . The flooring with the

01:14:20.110 --> 01:14:23.000
requirement is , uh , flooring free .

01:14:23.010 --> 01:14:25.890
Firefighting foam . Yes . Okay . Thank

01:14:25.890 --> 01:14:28.220
you , madam Chair and my time has run

01:14:28.220 --> 01:14:30.490
out and I yield back . Thank you , Mr

01:14:30.490 --> 01:14:32.823
Rutherford . Gentleman yields back . Mr .

01:14:32.823 --> 01:14:36.420
Johnson . Recognized for three minutes

01:14:36.420 --> 01:14:40.390
of questions . Thank you , Madam Chair .

01:14:40.390 --> 01:14:43.030
I want to follow up to Mr Rutherford's

01:14:43.040 --> 01:14:45.151
kind of question on there . So do you

01:14:45.151 --> 01:14:47.730
feel confident that one of these six

01:14:47.740 --> 01:14:50.770
alternatives will be ready by

01:14:50.780 --> 01:14:51.960
2024 ?

01:14:54.740 --> 01:14:57.180
So after , So I'm not the scientists .

01:14:57.180 --> 01:14:59.124
I've usually , uh the words of the

01:14:59.124 --> 01:15:01.291
scientists are cautiously optimistic .

01:15:01.291 --> 01:15:03.291
So I think , uh , in the scientific

01:15:03.291 --> 01:15:05.600
community , that means that it's a

01:15:05.600 --> 01:15:07.711
greater than 50 50 chance that one of

01:15:07.711 --> 01:15:10.230
those six , uh , we'll meet our safety

01:15:10.230 --> 01:15:12.508
standards . Uh , that'll that'll go in .

01:15:12.508 --> 01:15:14.619
We'll redefine the mills back and and

01:15:14.619 --> 01:15:16.786
and then put those , uh , that new mil

01:15:16.786 --> 01:15:18.730
spec standard into production . So

01:15:18.730 --> 01:15:20.730
cautiously optimistic is what I was

01:15:20.730 --> 01:15:22.619
advised to say , but I think it's

01:15:22.619 --> 01:15:26.410
looking good over mhm . And do we have

01:15:26.420 --> 01:15:30.120
a alternative plan ? Uh , or is there

01:15:30.120 --> 01:15:33.390
a deadline or a schedule that is that

01:15:33.400 --> 01:15:35.560
you are looking at in order to meet

01:15:35.560 --> 01:15:38.350
those deadlines in order to to to to

01:15:38.350 --> 01:15:41.940
make it before 2024 . So

01:15:41.950 --> 01:15:44.117
So it's a two . Part of one is that we

01:15:44.117 --> 01:15:46.430
talked about , uh , putting out the

01:15:46.430 --> 01:15:48.520
fire is the most important , and I

01:15:48.520 --> 01:15:50.576
think we'll get there for that . The

01:15:50.576 --> 01:15:52.880
second piece that , uh , thank you for

01:15:52.880 --> 01:15:54.936
giving more time to Mr Us for Nevada

01:15:54.936 --> 01:15:58.000
was droning on . But we also have to

01:15:58.000 --> 01:16:00.330
have a replacement product that does

01:16:00.330 --> 01:16:04.280
not that is less harmful to

01:16:04.280 --> 01:16:06.470
the environment and the current triple

01:16:06.470 --> 01:16:08.803
app . But we'd hate to do is say , Well ,

01:16:08.803 --> 01:16:10.914
it's flooring free , but it's just as

01:16:10.914 --> 01:16:13.026
harmful to the environment we haven't

01:16:13.026 --> 01:16:15.248
We haven't solved our our environmental

01:16:15.248 --> 01:16:17.470
problems . So So that's the That is the

01:16:17.470 --> 01:16:17.050
long pole in the tent what we call a

01:16:17.060 --> 01:16:19.171
toxicity . And so we're going through

01:16:19.171 --> 01:16:21.700
those those tests now to to ensure that

01:16:21.700 --> 01:16:24.360
the product we replace is better than

01:16:24.370 --> 01:16:26.570
the first product that we were

01:16:26.570 --> 01:16:30.530
using . Great . Thank you for that .

01:16:30.540 --> 01:16:33.650
I just have 11 final question Does d o

01:16:33.650 --> 01:16:36.340
d consider p fast the highest

01:16:36.350 --> 01:16:39.140
remediation priority at black sites ?

01:16:44.030 --> 01:16:46.860
Mhm . Uh , well , until we've

01:16:46.870 --> 01:16:49.720
completely , uh , analyzed , you know ,

01:16:49.720 --> 01:16:51.831
all of the BRAC sides to determine we

01:16:51.831 --> 01:16:54.000
have . We have some black sites that

01:16:54.000 --> 01:16:56.920
that have some really harmful known

01:16:56.920 --> 01:16:59.360
carcinogens that that I I don't know

01:16:59.360 --> 01:17:01.620
that the folks will surpass that . And

01:17:01.620 --> 01:17:03.870
those are the ones that that were taken

01:17:03.870 --> 01:17:05.703
care of . Now through the circle

01:17:05.703 --> 01:17:07.648
process at all our clothes . Black

01:17:07.648 --> 01:17:10.910
sites . Thank you , madam Chair . Are

01:17:10.910 --> 01:17:12.910
you back ? The balance of my time .

01:17:14.230 --> 01:17:16.452
Thank you , Mr Gonzales . The gentleman

01:17:16.452 --> 01:17:18.619
yields back . Um , I want to thank all

01:17:18.619 --> 01:17:20.397
of you for appearing before the

01:17:20.397 --> 01:17:22.452
committee today . Uh , we appreciate

01:17:22.452 --> 01:17:24.770
you providing us with an update on Pete

01:17:24.770 --> 01:17:27.100
Foster remediation and clean up , as

01:17:27.100 --> 01:17:28.933
well as the steps being taken to

01:17:28.933 --> 01:17:30.878
address federal and veteran health

01:17:30.878 --> 01:17:33.460
impact by exposure . Dr . Hastings , I

01:17:33.460 --> 01:17:35.430
look forward to continuing our

01:17:35.430 --> 01:17:39.250
discussions and diving more deeply into

01:17:39.260 --> 01:17:41.427
the work that that could that we could

01:17:41.427 --> 01:17:43.820
be and should be doing and to the

01:17:43.820 --> 01:17:45.820
Department of Defense officials . I

01:17:45.820 --> 01:17:47.931
just want to make it clear that while

01:17:47.931 --> 01:17:49.820
this committee is funding is only

01:17:49.820 --> 01:17:51.820
currently responsible for providing

01:17:51.820 --> 01:17:54.550
clean up costs for closed military

01:17:54.550 --> 01:17:56.810
installations , we also are responsible

01:17:56.810 --> 01:17:58.866
for the health and well being of our

01:17:58.866 --> 01:18:00.810
nation's veterans . And so if they

01:18:00.810 --> 01:18:02.643
become sick as a result of their

01:18:02.643 --> 01:18:04.810
service when they are in active duty .

01:18:04.810 --> 01:18:06.921
It is our responsibility to make sure

01:18:06.921 --> 01:18:09.143
that we can take care of them when they

01:18:09.143 --> 01:18:11.421
become veterans . And so , as a result ,

01:18:11.421 --> 01:18:11.210
we're going to continue to have

01:18:11.210 --> 01:18:13.760
hearings like this one to be able to

01:18:13.760 --> 01:18:15.982
make sure that we can ask you questions

01:18:15.982 --> 01:18:17.871
because ultimately you affect our

01:18:17.871 --> 01:18:19.871
bottom line . If you are not making

01:18:19.871 --> 01:18:21.816
sure that our active duty military

01:18:21.816 --> 01:18:24.710
don't become sick from exposure to pee

01:18:24.710 --> 01:18:28.650
fast phones and other toxic substances .

01:18:28.660 --> 01:18:30.990
So just consider yourselves put on

01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:33.590
notice to that fact . Thank you very

01:18:33.590 --> 01:18:35.940
much . I just want to sure we're

01:18:35.940 --> 01:18:38.162
rolling together towards that objective

01:18:38.170 --> 01:18:40.200
here in the department . I'm really

01:18:40.200 --> 01:18:42.580
glad to hear that . Thank you . Um ,

01:18:42.590 --> 01:18:44.701
well , now welcome . Our second panel

01:18:44.701 --> 01:18:47.400
are witnesses include Dr Jamie Do it .

01:18:47.410 --> 01:18:49.410
Associate professor , Department of

01:18:49.410 --> 01:18:51.354
Pharmacology and Toxicology Roadie

01:18:51.354 --> 01:18:53.354
School of Medicine at East Carolina

01:18:53.354 --> 01:18:55.760
University . And Miss Erin Brockovich

01:18:55.770 --> 01:18:57.770
and environmental activist consumer

01:18:57.770 --> 01:18:59.826
advocate and president of Brockovich

01:18:59.826 --> 01:19:01.937
Research and consulting . Doctor . Do

01:19:01.937 --> 01:19:04.048
it . Your full written testimony will

01:19:04.048 --> 01:19:06.159
be included in the record and you are

01:19:06.159 --> 01:19:07.881
recognized for five minutes to

01:19:07.881 --> 01:19:10.048
summarize your testimony . Thank you .

01:19:10.048 --> 01:19:11.881
And distinguished members of the

01:19:11.881 --> 01:19:13.881
subcommittee . Thank you . for this

01:19:13.881 --> 01:19:16.103
opportunity to testify on contamination

01:19:16.103 --> 01:19:18.214
and impact of PFS in my position here

01:19:18.214 --> 01:19:20.437
at the Brody School of Medicine at East

01:19:20.437 --> 01:19:22.437
Carolina University in Greenville ,

01:19:22.437 --> 01:19:21.890
North Carolina , I studied the

01:19:21.890 --> 01:19:24.210
toxicological effects of PFS and how

01:19:24.210 --> 01:19:26.750
they affect the immune system . We are

01:19:26.760 --> 01:19:28.927
all probably thinking a lot more about

01:19:28.927 --> 01:19:30.760
our own immune systems right now

01:19:30.760 --> 01:19:32.982
because of the covid pandemic . We also

01:19:32.982 --> 01:19:35.038
now know that one undesirable health

01:19:35.038 --> 01:19:36.760
effect of P fast exposure is a

01:19:36.760 --> 01:19:38.871
suppressed immune system . This means

01:19:38.871 --> 01:19:41.093
an increased risk of a reduced response

01:19:41.093 --> 01:19:43.093
to vaccines as well as an increased

01:19:43.093 --> 01:19:45.260
risk to infections . One member of the

01:19:45.260 --> 01:19:47.204
military community affiliated with

01:19:47.204 --> 01:19:49.204
Pease Air Force Base recently wrote

01:19:49.204 --> 01:19:51.316
that the global pandemic is scary for

01:19:51.316 --> 01:19:53.149
everyone , and it's even scarier

01:19:53.149 --> 01:19:52.690
knowing that your family has been

01:19:52.690 --> 01:19:54.950
exposed to chemicals that may hurt the

01:19:54.950 --> 01:19:57.061
immune system when it's needed most .

01:19:57.061 --> 01:19:59.117
This is one person among many who is

01:19:59.117 --> 01:20:01.228
worried about her health , the health

01:20:01.228 --> 01:20:01.180
of her family , the health of our

01:20:01.180 --> 01:20:03.570
community from their P fast exposures

01:20:03.580 --> 01:20:05.524
and who lives in a P fast polluted

01:20:05.524 --> 01:20:07.636
community and proximity to a military

01:20:07.636 --> 01:20:09.858
base where triplets were used and where

01:20:09.858 --> 01:20:11.747
P fast now contaminate sources of

01:20:11.747 --> 01:20:13.747
drinking water exposure to pee fast

01:20:14.410 --> 01:20:16.243
through drinking water and other

01:20:16.243 --> 01:20:18.188
sources is known to be linked to a

01:20:18.188 --> 01:20:20.077
variety of under desirable health

01:20:20.077 --> 01:20:22.021
effects in people , in addition to

01:20:22.021 --> 01:20:23.910
effects on the immune system , as

01:20:23.910 --> 01:20:25.966
you've heard , these include effects

01:20:25.966 --> 01:20:28.132
that often present as chronic diseases

01:20:28.132 --> 01:20:30.299
and include deliver the cardiovascular

01:20:30.299 --> 01:20:29.440
system , the endocrine system , the

01:20:29.440 --> 01:20:31.420
reproductive system and effects on

01:20:31.420 --> 01:20:33.420
development . Some populations , if

01:20:33.420 --> 01:20:35.420
you've heard as you've heard , have

01:20:35.420 --> 01:20:37.698
also seen increases in kinds of cancer .

01:20:37.698 --> 01:20:39.698
What A recent report indicated that

01:20:39.698 --> 01:20:41.420
over 700 military sites may be

01:20:41.420 --> 01:20:43.531
contaminated with PFS from a Triple F

01:20:43.531 --> 01:20:45.850
uses . These D O D facilities have some

01:20:45.850 --> 01:20:48.460
of the highest p fast contamination and

01:20:48.460 --> 01:20:50.627
detections , and they're likely due to

01:20:50.627 --> 01:20:52.682
repeated refuse in training to those

01:20:52.682 --> 01:20:54.904
legacy PFS . As you've heard , it's not

01:20:54.904 --> 01:20:57.238
easy to clean PFS out of drinking water .

01:20:57.238 --> 01:20:59.349
This is partly due to the persistence

01:20:59.349 --> 01:21:01.349
of PFS . The vast majority of these

01:21:01.349 --> 01:21:03.530
nearly 10,000 individual chemicals are

01:21:03.530 --> 01:21:05.752
so resistant to break down that they're

01:21:05.752 --> 01:21:07.586
sometimes referred to as forever

01:21:07.586 --> 01:21:09.697
chemicals . As discussed on the first

01:21:09.697 --> 01:21:11.530
panel . Filtration , capture and

01:21:11.530 --> 01:21:13.586
transport of PFS to another location

01:21:13.586 --> 01:21:15.808
become a problem for someone else , and

01:21:15.808 --> 01:21:17.919
this isn't really a cost effective or

01:21:17.919 --> 01:21:20.141
environmentally sound way to dispose of

01:21:20.141 --> 01:21:21.974
the fast . And those who pay are

01:21:21.974 --> 01:21:24.252
usually taxpayers in 11 way or another .

01:21:24.252 --> 01:21:26.308
A major increase in clean up funding

01:21:26.308 --> 01:21:28.141
for D . O . D . So that they can

01:21:28.141 --> 01:21:30.030
quickly clean up some of the most

01:21:30.030 --> 01:21:32.141
contaminated sites is one part of the

01:21:32.141 --> 01:21:34.363
solution . Confirming the presence of P

01:21:34.363 --> 01:21:36.474
fast across all D o D facilities also

01:21:36.474 --> 01:21:38.586
would be instrumental in facilitating

01:21:38.586 --> 01:21:40.641
and prioritizing cleanup efforts for

01:21:40.641 --> 01:21:42.863
some of these most contaminated sites .

01:21:42.863 --> 01:21:45.030
Yeah , I'd like to remind you a little

01:21:45.030 --> 01:21:44.590
bit of the culture of denial

01:21:44.590 --> 01:21:46.757
surrounding the toxicity of the fast .

01:21:46.757 --> 01:21:48.534
A few years ago , I talked to a

01:21:48.534 --> 01:21:50.646
civilian firefighter at a US military

01:21:50.646 --> 01:21:52.368
base . He had this conflicting

01:21:52.368 --> 01:21:54.701
information about health risk of P fast ,

01:21:54.701 --> 01:21:56.757
so he called me up . His base safety

01:21:56.757 --> 01:21:58.979
officer said that the fast we're really

01:21:58.979 --> 01:22:01.312
no worse for his health and bubble bath .

01:22:01.312 --> 01:22:00.940
This contradicted information he'd seen

01:22:00.940 --> 01:22:03.107
about undesirable health effects being

01:22:03.107 --> 01:22:05.162
found for P fast . He wondered if he

01:22:05.162 --> 01:22:07.384
should be worried about himself and his

01:22:07.384 --> 01:22:09.718
fellow firefighters . At this point , D .

01:22:09.718 --> 01:22:11.884
O . D . Had admitted to concerns about

01:22:11.884 --> 01:22:11.740
health and environmental effects of the

01:22:11.740 --> 01:22:13.851
fast . But how is it possible for the

01:22:13.851 --> 01:22:16.018
safety officer not to have shared this

01:22:16.018 --> 01:22:18.180
information with this firefighter . I

01:22:18.180 --> 01:22:20.380
also have spoken to former Air Force

01:22:20.380 --> 01:22:22.491
firefighter who had also been told by

01:22:22.491 --> 01:22:24.658
his military leaders that Triple F was

01:22:24.658 --> 01:22:26.658
just just as bad as open water . So

01:22:26.658 --> 01:22:28.824
nothing to worry about . These stories

01:22:28.824 --> 01:22:30.824
highlight that the D . O . D should

01:22:30.824 --> 01:22:33.047
have done and should do a better job of

01:22:33.047 --> 01:22:35.047
communicating health risk of PFS to

01:22:35.047 --> 01:22:37.213
their service members . I also want to

01:22:37.213 --> 01:22:39.269
mention that turnout gear of fighter

01:22:39.269 --> 01:22:41.380
fighters also contains PFS , creating

01:22:41.380 --> 01:22:43.350
yet another PFS exposure source to

01:22:43.360 --> 01:22:45.390
firefighters and another potential

01:22:45.390 --> 01:22:48.360
culture of denial . We've talked about

01:22:48.360 --> 01:22:50.082
the maximum contaminant levels

01:22:50.082 --> 01:22:52.138
established in states for individual

01:22:52.138 --> 01:22:54.416
PFS . I'd like to emphasize that for P .

01:22:54.416 --> 01:22:56.638
F . O s , for example , these are based

01:22:56.638 --> 01:22:58.971
on potential harms to the immune system ,

01:22:58.971 --> 01:23:01.027
and these are quite a bit lower than

01:23:01.027 --> 01:23:02.749
the now outdated and minimally

01:23:02.749 --> 01:23:04.804
protective 70 parts per trillion and

01:23:04.804 --> 01:23:07.030
health advisory that the U . S EPA has

01:23:07.030 --> 01:23:09.220
developed . I'm heartened to hear that

01:23:09.220 --> 01:23:11.330
the D o d D o . D . Is committed to

01:23:11.330 --> 01:23:13.386
cleaning up to the state level M . C

01:23:13.386 --> 01:23:16.320
l's , but it really should be across

01:23:16.330 --> 01:23:18.108
all sites regardless of who The

01:23:18.108 --> 01:23:20.219
purveyor of that water is because all

01:23:20.219 --> 01:23:22.441
people in those areas deserve the right

01:23:22.441 --> 01:23:24.520
to drink water that is free from PFS

01:23:24.700 --> 01:23:26.867
and that is clean to the level that is

01:23:26.867 --> 01:23:29.089
the most health protective and based on

01:23:29.089 --> 01:23:31.200
the most sound science that we have .

01:23:31.200 --> 01:23:32.922
I'm glad to hear that flooring

01:23:32.922 --> 01:23:34.811
contained . I'm glad to hear that

01:23:34.811 --> 01:23:37.033
flooring containing nature Phillips are

01:23:37.033 --> 01:23:39.144
being phased out and that the hope is

01:23:39.144 --> 01:23:41.478
for substitutes that aren't regrettable .

01:23:41.478 --> 01:23:41.270
This will prevent future contamination

01:23:41.270 --> 01:23:43.381
of our water sources , but we do need

01:23:43.381 --> 01:23:45.548
increased funding for D o D . To clean

01:23:45.548 --> 01:23:47.270
up these hundreds of known and

01:23:47.270 --> 01:23:49.437
suspected P fast contamination sites .

01:23:49.437 --> 01:23:51.103
We need to find a safe way of

01:23:51.103 --> 01:23:53.159
destroying PE fast . We shouldn't be

01:23:53.159 --> 01:23:53.040
burning them and spreading them out

01:23:53.040 --> 01:23:55.151
throughout communities . Veterans and

01:23:55.151 --> 01:23:57.262
taxpayers shouldn't have to carry the

01:23:57.262 --> 01:23:59.262
burden of P . Fast exposure and the

01:23:59.262 --> 01:24:01.373
cost of cleanup shouldn't really fall

01:24:01.373 --> 01:24:03.429
the taxpayers alone . Some solutions

01:24:03.429 --> 01:24:05.596
include cleaning up pollution from the

01:24:05.596 --> 01:24:07.818
use of legacy P fast phasing P fast out

01:24:07.818 --> 01:24:09.707
of turnout gear , phasing all non

01:24:09.707 --> 01:24:11.651
essential uses of P fast for other

01:24:11.651 --> 01:24:13.762
industrial consumer uses and managing

01:24:13.762 --> 01:24:15.818
PFS as a single class of chemicals .

01:24:15.818 --> 01:24:17.873
Thank you for inviting me to talk to

01:24:17.873 --> 01:24:17.560
you today . And I look forward to

01:24:17.560 --> 01:24:18.310
questions .

01:24:22.090 --> 01:24:24.460
Thank you so much , Doctor DeWitt . Uh ,

01:24:24.470 --> 01:24:28.470
Miss Brockovich , you are record . Your

01:24:28.470 --> 01:24:30.637
full written testimony will be entered

01:24:30.637 --> 01:24:32.303
into the record , and you are

01:24:32.303 --> 01:24:32.060
recognized for five minutes to

01:24:32.060 --> 01:24:35.570
summarize your testimony . Thank you .

01:24:35.580 --> 01:24:37.680
Good afternoon . Honourable Chairman

01:24:37.680 --> 01:24:39.736
Wasserman Schultz and members of the

01:24:39.736 --> 01:24:41.958
House of Appropriations subcommittee on

01:24:41.958 --> 01:24:43.791
military construction , veterans

01:24:43.791 --> 01:24:45.847
affairs and related agencies . Thank

01:24:45.847 --> 01:24:47.513
you for having me . I am Erin

01:24:47.513 --> 01:24:50.470
Brockovich . I am a military mom . Two

01:24:50.470 --> 01:24:52.470
of my Children served in the United

01:24:52.470 --> 01:24:54.637
States Army . And my son served a tour

01:24:54.637 --> 01:24:56.990
in Afghanistan . All Americans who

01:24:56.990 --> 01:24:59.230
serve give the ultimate sacrifice to

01:24:59.230 --> 01:25:01.800
protect and defend our country . They

01:25:01.800 --> 01:25:03.689
shouldn't have to sacrifice their

01:25:03.689 --> 01:25:05.690
health years after their service is

01:25:05.690 --> 01:25:08.540
complete . It would be much better for

01:25:08.540 --> 01:25:11.270
you , our representatives , to hear

01:25:11.350 --> 01:25:13.517
from the tens of thousands of military

01:25:13.517 --> 01:25:16.650
men and women , firefighters , spouses ,

01:25:16.660 --> 01:25:18.880
Children , brothers and sisters ,

01:25:18.890 --> 01:25:20.723
friends and neighbors and family

01:25:20.723 --> 01:25:24.160
members who write to me today . I'm

01:25:24.160 --> 01:25:27.110
here for them . Across our country ,

01:25:27.120 --> 01:25:29.140
families are exposed to dangerous

01:25:29.140 --> 01:25:30.973
chemicals in their water and the

01:25:30.973 --> 01:25:33.140
families most at risk are those living

01:25:33.140 --> 01:25:36.360
on or near current and former military

01:25:36.370 --> 01:25:40.080
bases . P , f A s or

01:25:40.080 --> 01:25:42.830
per and polychlorinated alcohol

01:25:42.830 --> 01:25:45.610
Substances are a class of synthetic

01:25:45.610 --> 01:25:48.850
chemicals that are silently ubiquitous

01:25:48.860 --> 01:25:51.420
and persistent in the environment and

01:25:51.430 --> 01:25:54.910
are highly toxic . Their ability to

01:25:54.910 --> 01:25:57.830
repel oil and water and persist at high

01:25:57.830 --> 01:26:00.670
temperatures makes them attractive for

01:26:00.670 --> 01:26:03.540
use in everyday items like nonstick

01:26:03.540 --> 01:26:06.280
cookware , food packaging , water

01:26:06.280 --> 01:26:08.502
repellent gear and , in the case of the

01:26:08.502 --> 01:26:11.190
military , firefighting foam used to

01:26:11.190 --> 01:26:14.730
extinguish jet fuel fires . So

01:26:14.730 --> 01:26:17.300
far , the Department of Defense has

01:26:17.300 --> 01:26:21.230
identified 651 active broke

01:26:21.240 --> 01:26:24.280
installations in the United States with

01:26:24.280 --> 01:26:28.200
known or suspected releases of P . Foss .

01:26:28.880 --> 01:26:31.040
The P Foss levels detected in the

01:26:31.040 --> 01:26:33.900
groundwater on or near these bases

01:26:33.950 --> 01:26:37.690
should alarm us all at

01:26:37.690 --> 01:26:40.110
many bases , including England Air

01:26:40.110 --> 01:26:42.850
Force Base , Naval Air Station , China

01:26:42.850 --> 01:26:46.450
Lake Patrick Air Force Base , Naval Air

01:26:46.450 --> 01:26:49.020
Station , Jacksonville , All this Air

01:26:49.020 --> 01:26:52.100
Force base . There are P Foss detection

01:26:52.110 --> 01:26:55.600
in the groundwater that top one

01:26:55.610 --> 01:26:59.330
million parts per trillion . As you

01:26:59.330 --> 01:27:02.170
know , the EPA's advisory level is 70

01:27:02.180 --> 01:27:04.790
parts per trillion and many states have

01:27:04.790 --> 01:27:07.800
now concluded safety . Foss levels are

01:27:07.810 --> 01:27:11.370
actually between 10 and 20 parts per

01:27:11.370 --> 01:27:14.870
trillion , so it is deeply concerning

01:27:14.880 --> 01:27:17.660
that more than 100 bases have detected

01:27:17.660 --> 01:27:21.610
P foster at levels greater than 30,000

01:27:21.620 --> 01:27:25.080
parts per trillion . Until recently ,

01:27:25.090 --> 01:27:27.610
service members at these bases drank

01:27:27.610 --> 01:27:30.600
water with P Fosse . At some bases . P

01:27:30.600 --> 01:27:32.840
fost levels in the drinking water are

01:27:32.840 --> 01:27:35.130
still above the levels that states

01:27:35.130 --> 01:27:38.800
consider safe . People have

01:27:38.800 --> 01:27:41.880
contacted me for years about polluted

01:27:41.890 --> 01:27:44.700
military sites . Many of them have

01:27:44.700 --> 01:27:46.589
tried connecting with their local

01:27:46.589 --> 01:27:49.160
officials . But no one was willing to

01:27:49.160 --> 01:27:51.880
help or listen or answer their

01:27:51.880 --> 01:27:54.760
questions . Who are they supposed to

01:27:54.760 --> 01:27:56.900
turn to for the answers that they

01:27:56.900 --> 01:28:00.550
deserve ? They share with me how they

01:28:00.560 --> 01:28:02.780
or their family members are sick with

01:28:02.780 --> 01:28:05.590
kidney issues , testicular cancers or

01:28:05.590 --> 01:28:09.470
dealing with infertility issues . What

01:28:09.470 --> 01:28:11.710
surprised me is how they found out

01:28:11.720 --> 01:28:13.760
about these contaminations , and it

01:28:13.760 --> 01:28:16.520
wasn't from the V A or the D O . D ,

01:28:16.530 --> 01:28:18.940
but rather from local news stories or

01:28:18.940 --> 01:28:22.840
NGO websites . I don't blame or want

01:28:22.840 --> 01:28:26.010
to blame anyone , person or agency ,

01:28:26.020 --> 01:28:29.570
but I do want to convey the voices and

01:28:29.570 --> 01:28:32.200
the stories of those who have been

01:28:32.200 --> 01:28:35.390
harmed . One retired veteran , who

01:28:35.390 --> 01:28:38.870
served from 1989 to 1992 at the

01:28:38.870 --> 01:28:41.190
Wordsmith Air Force Base in a Scott of

01:28:41.190 --> 01:28:44.440
Michigan , told me he felt like he was

01:28:44.450 --> 01:28:47.550
a test subject . He drank the water on

01:28:47.550 --> 01:28:50.210
bass and remembers crawling through a

01:28:50.210 --> 01:28:52.780
triple F during drills at wordsmith .

01:28:53.070 --> 01:28:55.700
He started a group in 2016 to raise

01:28:55.700 --> 01:28:57.478
awareness after Michigan health

01:28:57.478 --> 01:28:59.860
officials issued a drinking water

01:28:59.860 --> 01:29:03.180
advisory for P . Foss in Escada .

01:29:03.670 --> 01:29:05.510
He has dozens of health issues ,

01:29:05.520 --> 01:29:07.631
including liver disease , cannot have

01:29:07.631 --> 01:29:09.950
Children . Most of his disability

01:29:09.950 --> 01:29:12.790
benefits and claims have been denied .

01:29:13.270 --> 01:29:15.750
Many of the people from his group have

01:29:15.750 --> 01:29:19.420
died a triple F used since the late

01:29:19.420 --> 01:29:21.780
sixties to put out Jeff fuel fires at

01:29:21.780 --> 01:29:24.560
places like Worse , Smith also soaked

01:29:24.560 --> 01:29:26.430
into the ground , contaminating

01:29:26.430 --> 01:29:28.700
groundwater and surface water at these

01:29:28.710 --> 01:29:31.010
installations and in the surrounding

01:29:31.010 --> 01:29:34.210
communities talked to the residents of

01:29:34.210 --> 01:29:36.450
Portsmouth , New Hampshire , home to

01:29:36.450 --> 01:29:39.010
former Pease Air Force Base . The

01:29:39.010 --> 01:29:42.160
abandoned military outpost is now home

01:29:42.170 --> 01:29:44.240
two apartment buildings , trendy

01:29:44.240 --> 01:29:47.010
restaurants , offices and daycare

01:29:47.010 --> 01:29:50.940
centers . In 2014 oh , Mom learned

01:29:50.940 --> 01:29:52.829
from a newspaper article that the

01:29:52.829 --> 01:29:54.829
drinking water in her community was

01:29:54.829 --> 01:29:57.162
highly contaminated with this substance .

01:29:57.270 --> 01:29:59.326
Like so many other community members

01:29:59.326 --> 01:30:01.548
that I have worked with . Officials did

01:30:01.548 --> 01:30:03.492
not respond to her calls or emails

01:30:03.492 --> 01:30:05.548
asking questions about how the water

01:30:05.548 --> 01:30:07.770
could affect the health of her family ,

01:30:07.770 --> 01:30:09.937
So she started her own campaign to get

01:30:09.937 --> 01:30:11.770
blood tests provided to everyone

01:30:11.770 --> 01:30:14.380
exposed to the water . While I

01:30:14.380 --> 01:30:17.250
recognize today is about closed

01:30:17.250 --> 01:30:20.030
facilities , Luke and Cannon Air Force

01:30:20.030 --> 01:30:21.919
bases have been forced to provide

01:30:21.919 --> 01:30:24.370
bottled water as a result of P Foss

01:30:24.370 --> 01:30:26.830
contamination , while others like

01:30:26.830 --> 01:30:29.450
Langley Air Force Base , remains silent ,

01:30:29.460 --> 01:30:32.780
barely below federal notification

01:30:32.790 --> 01:30:36.010
levels . D . O . D is not providing

01:30:36.010 --> 01:30:38.280
safe water for some of the folks near

01:30:38.280 --> 01:30:41.530
the bases who rely on , well water for

01:30:41.530 --> 01:30:45.260
their drinking purposes . How extensive

01:30:45.270 --> 01:30:47.430
is the P false pollution in my

01:30:47.430 --> 01:30:49.541
community ? This is what they want to

01:30:49.541 --> 01:30:51.790
know . When the D . O . D . Confirmed

01:30:51.790 --> 01:30:53.580
the presence of P focus in the

01:30:53.580 --> 01:30:56.020
groundwater . When will d . O . D . In

01:30:56.020 --> 01:30:59.150
non essential use of P . Foss and items

01:30:59.150 --> 01:31:01.290
like food , packaging and cosmetics ?

01:31:01.660 --> 01:31:05.090
What do I do if I have high key focus

01:31:05.100 --> 01:31:07.910
in my blood ? And most importantly ,

01:31:07.920 --> 01:31:10.070
questions asked , When will d o . D

01:31:10.070 --> 01:31:14.070
clean up the contamination ? Why

01:31:14.070 --> 01:31:16.126
hasn't the d . O . D alerted service

01:31:16.126 --> 01:31:18.720
members after three AM came in in 2000

01:31:18.720 --> 01:31:20.776
and foreign D o D officials that key

01:31:20.776 --> 01:31:23.080
fost , the main ingredient , was toxic .

01:31:23.760 --> 01:31:27.730
Why has it taken ? Because you could

01:31:27.730 --> 01:31:30.008
wrap up your testimony , please . Okay .

01:31:30.260 --> 01:31:33.800
I was just getting there . So , P Foss ,

01:31:33.800 --> 01:31:36.022
which contaminates the blood and organs

01:31:36.022 --> 01:31:37.967
in nearly every living being . And

01:31:37.967 --> 01:31:40.560
experts estimate that 25% of Americans

01:31:40.560 --> 01:31:43.440
have troubling levels of T . Foss . It

01:31:43.440 --> 01:31:45.496
is important for our service members

01:31:45.496 --> 01:31:48.090
and their communities that they are

01:31:48.090 --> 01:31:50.510
prepared and they have information .

01:31:50.860 --> 01:31:52.971
These service members and our defense

01:31:52.971 --> 01:31:55.310
communities make enormous sacrifices to

01:31:55.310 --> 01:31:58.360
keep us safe . We should do our part in

01:31:58.360 --> 01:32:01.100
keeping them safe . Thank you for

01:32:01.100 --> 01:32:04.000
allowing me this time . Thank you both

01:32:04.000 --> 01:32:06.340
for your compelling testimony . We

01:32:06.350 --> 01:32:08.628
greatly appreciate it , Doctor . Do it .

01:32:08.628 --> 01:32:10.990
I want to start with you . Um , could

01:32:10.990 --> 01:32:12.940
you explain to us the historical

01:32:12.940 --> 01:32:15.690
timeline of purpose research ? When

01:32:15.690 --> 01:32:17.770
were the first warning signs and how

01:32:17.770 --> 01:32:19.881
long were they swept under the rug by

01:32:19.881 --> 01:32:21.659
Major industries are ignored by

01:32:21.659 --> 01:32:24.110
government agencies . Thank you for

01:32:24.110 --> 01:32:26.840
that question , Madam Chairwoman . The

01:32:26.850 --> 01:32:29.280
the toxicity the toxicological

01:32:29.280 --> 01:32:31.710
information of PFS were studied by some

01:32:31.710 --> 01:32:33.543
of the companies that made these

01:32:33.543 --> 01:32:35.766
compounds . And to our knowledge , some

01:32:35.766 --> 01:32:38.840
of the earliest reports of toxicity

01:32:38.840 --> 01:32:40.896
emerged in the fifties and sixties .

01:32:40.896 --> 01:32:43.007
These were studies done with primates

01:32:43.007 --> 01:32:45.118
demonstrating actually effects on the

01:32:45.118 --> 01:32:47.340
immune system , but These didn't really

01:32:47.340 --> 01:32:49.340
emerge in the literature that I had

01:32:49.340 --> 01:32:51.396
access to as a scientist until about

01:32:51.396 --> 01:32:53.507
the 19 eighties . And even then there

01:32:53.507 --> 01:32:55.673
were just trickles of information . It

01:32:55.673 --> 01:32:57.840
really wasn't until the 19 nineties or

01:32:57.840 --> 01:32:59.896
two thousands that we started seeing

01:32:59.896 --> 01:33:01.951
copious amounts of information about

01:33:01.951 --> 01:33:03.562
the toxicity of PFS . So the

01:33:03.562 --> 01:33:05.920
information was kept under the rug for

01:33:05.920 --> 01:33:06.660
decades .

01:33:19.150 --> 01:33:22.560
I think you're muted , Debbie . You

01:33:22.560 --> 01:33:24.980
know , these computers just mute you .

01:33:24.990 --> 01:33:27.530
Uh , randomly . Sorry about that . Um ,

01:33:27.540 --> 01:33:29.620
can you give us examples , doctor of

01:33:29.630 --> 01:33:31.797
effective ways of permanently cleaning

01:33:31.797 --> 01:33:33.908
up contamination in the environment ?

01:33:33.908 --> 01:33:35.963
Do you know of any agencies that are

01:33:35.963 --> 01:33:38.074
actively doing so ? And are there any

01:33:38.074 --> 01:33:40.019
universities that are looking into

01:33:40.019 --> 01:33:42.074
innovative ways to clean up the fast

01:33:42.074 --> 01:33:44.720
contamination ? Yes , There are several

01:33:44.720 --> 01:33:46.660
attempts by different university

01:33:46.660 --> 01:33:48.900
researchers , as well as some nonprofit

01:33:48.910 --> 01:33:51.132
organizations that are looking for ways

01:33:51.132 --> 01:33:53.299
to actually degrade p fast . Because ,

01:33:53.299 --> 01:33:55.354
as you've heard right now , the only

01:33:55.354 --> 01:33:57.410
way to eliminate key fast from , for

01:33:57.410 --> 01:33:59.521
example , drinking water is to filter

01:33:59.521 --> 01:34:01.243
them so we don't have a way of

01:34:01.243 --> 01:34:03.188
degrading them . There has been at

01:34:03.188 --> 01:34:05.354
least one scientific report of a group

01:34:05.354 --> 01:34:07.577
that has discovered some microorganisms

01:34:07.577 --> 01:34:09.910
that can break down P f o A and P F O s .

01:34:09.910 --> 01:34:12.132
But this is in a little bottle , not on

01:34:12.132 --> 01:34:14.188
a large scale . We've also seen some

01:34:14.188 --> 01:34:17.570
reports of chemical breakdown of P fast

01:34:17.580 --> 01:34:19.247
again on a little bottle in a

01:34:19.247 --> 01:34:21.590
laboratory bench . But I think we have

01:34:21.590 --> 01:34:25.110
some promise that in maybe a few years

01:34:25.110 --> 01:34:28.170
to decades we could have some efforts

01:34:28.170 --> 01:34:30.370
that will degrade p fast . But that

01:34:30.370 --> 01:34:32.592
doesn't address the question about what

01:34:32.592 --> 01:34:34.648
we do with PFS in contaminated water

01:34:34.648 --> 01:34:38.140
right now . Yeah , it's been argued ,

01:34:38.140 --> 01:34:40.196
Doctor , Do it because the fox is so

01:34:40.196 --> 01:34:42.460
common . And you heard that that

01:34:42.460 --> 01:34:44.430
testimony here today the tracking

01:34:44.430 --> 01:34:46.486
exposure among veterans would not be

01:34:46.486 --> 01:34:48.763
affected . Do you agree with that ? Um ,

01:34:48.763 --> 01:34:50.819
is there use or is there useful data

01:34:50.819 --> 01:34:53.041
that could be obtained from testing for

01:34:53.041 --> 01:34:55.470
tracking or otherwise evaluating P fast

01:34:55.470 --> 01:34:59.110
and veteran populations ? Yeah , well ,

01:34:59.120 --> 01:35:01.287
you can't find what you're not looking

01:35:01.287 --> 01:35:03.600
for . And if you're not , if you're not

01:35:03.600 --> 01:35:05.830
measuring P fast levels in people's

01:35:05.830 --> 01:35:07.830
blood , if you're not measuring PFS

01:35:07.830 --> 01:35:10.052
levels in tissue samples that you might

01:35:10.052 --> 01:35:12.620
obtain from biopsies , unfortunately ,

01:35:12.620 --> 01:35:14.660
looking at tissue concentrations in

01:35:14.660 --> 01:35:17.210
people after they've died would be

01:35:17.210 --> 01:35:18.821
another way of understanding

01:35:18.821 --> 01:35:20.877
relationships So you're not going to

01:35:20.877 --> 01:35:23.099
find what you're not looking for . As I

01:35:23.099 --> 01:35:25.210
said so it's really important that we

01:35:25.210 --> 01:35:27.210
start to monitor veterans and other

01:35:27.210 --> 01:35:29.321
individuals , at least for the health

01:35:29.321 --> 01:35:31.266
effects that we know have a strong

01:35:31.270 --> 01:35:34.500
linkages to keep past exposure and

01:35:34.500 --> 01:35:37.010
perhaps active duty military , rather

01:35:37.010 --> 01:35:38.732
than saying that we have other

01:35:38.732 --> 01:35:41.670
priorities . Um , thank you . Uh , Miss

01:35:41.670 --> 01:35:44.770
Brockovich . You , uh , thank you for

01:35:44.770 --> 01:35:46.659
your entire family service . Um ,

01:35:46.659 --> 01:35:48.881
particularly as a mother of two service

01:35:48.881 --> 01:35:50.992
members . And it's clear that this is

01:35:50.992 --> 01:35:53.159
personal to you . Can you outline your

01:35:53.159 --> 01:35:55.270
experience with the Fox contamination

01:35:55.270 --> 01:35:56.937
on and around closed military

01:35:56.937 --> 01:35:58.992
installations , including the impact

01:35:58.992 --> 01:36:00.826
it's had on veteran health , the

01:36:00.826 --> 01:36:03.159
environment and surrounding communities ?

01:36:03.159 --> 01:36:06.050
Yes . And , um , my concern is always

01:36:06.050 --> 01:36:09.240
for them and how overwhelmed I am with

01:36:09.250 --> 01:36:11.960
emails and correspondence from those

01:36:11.960 --> 01:36:14.500
service members and their families with

01:36:14.500 --> 01:36:17.330
frustrations on feeling like they're

01:36:17.330 --> 01:36:19.690
not getting information or lack of

01:36:19.690 --> 01:36:22.680
communication . Um , with

01:36:22.690 --> 01:36:24.746
misunderstandings with the Via about

01:36:24.746 --> 01:36:26.746
their health and how it's treated .

01:36:26.746 --> 01:36:28.960
They are very astute in the p false .

01:36:28.970 --> 01:36:31.580
They're aware that it's in in the base

01:36:31.580 --> 01:36:33.680
or past their based in their closed

01:36:33.680 --> 01:36:36.890
bases , but their frustration on not

01:36:36.890 --> 01:36:39.740
being able to get answers or the help

01:36:39.740 --> 01:36:42.780
that they feel that they need . That is

01:36:42.780 --> 01:36:46.140
my biggest experience with P . Foss in

01:36:46.140 --> 01:36:49.230
military . It is a national issue and

01:36:49.230 --> 01:36:51.286
one of great importance . But I know

01:36:51.286 --> 01:36:53.397
what we're talking about here today ,

01:36:53.397 --> 01:36:55.380
and it's our military that they're

01:36:55.380 --> 01:36:58.130
reaching out to me in very large

01:36:58.130 --> 01:37:00.650
numbers because they feel they can't

01:37:01.230 --> 01:37:03.710
get their representatives to respond to

01:37:03.710 --> 01:37:06.630
them or communication on how they

01:37:06.630 --> 01:37:08.908
should be handling their health crisis .

01:37:09.630 --> 01:37:11.686
You know , this committee covers the

01:37:11.686 --> 01:37:13.852
entire lifecycle of someone who served

01:37:13.852 --> 01:37:16.019
on active duty all the way through the

01:37:16.019 --> 01:37:15.830
time that they're a veteran , and we've

01:37:15.830 --> 01:37:17.997
covered the whole budget for the VHS ,

01:37:17.997 --> 01:37:20.163
which is part of why we're having this

01:37:20.163 --> 01:37:22.163
hearing . And I'm sure you've heard

01:37:22.163 --> 01:37:24.219
during your experience advocating on

01:37:24.219 --> 01:37:24.070
this issue to claim that there's not

01:37:24.070 --> 01:37:25.959
enough research on the effects of

01:37:25.959 --> 01:37:27.848
pathos . Exposure is that is that

01:37:27.848 --> 01:37:30.014
accurate from your personal experience

01:37:30.014 --> 01:37:32.340
and working in this field absolutely ,

01:37:32.340 --> 01:37:34.507
that the science isn't there yet , but

01:37:34.507 --> 01:37:36.618
they hear conflicting stories that it

01:37:36.618 --> 01:37:38.840
is , and they talk amongst each other .

01:37:38.840 --> 01:37:40.951
They have groups , they're learning .

01:37:40.951 --> 01:37:43.070
They're knowledgeable , yet they have

01:37:43.070 --> 01:37:44.959
some of those symptoms that we've

01:37:44.959 --> 01:37:48.000
shared here today of kidney or liver or

01:37:48.000 --> 01:37:50.910
testicular cancer or infertility . Yet

01:37:50.920 --> 01:37:53.920
it still won't be said to them that

01:37:53.920 --> 01:37:56.050
this is consistent with an exposure .

01:37:56.060 --> 01:37:58.338
We're not sure that this is applicable .

01:37:58.340 --> 01:38:00.507
Therefore , they're not getting help .

01:38:00.507 --> 01:38:02.850
So there's great frustration with them .

01:38:04.020 --> 01:38:06.150
Thank you . My time's expired . Um ,

01:38:06.150 --> 01:38:08.590
and the gentleman from California , Mr

01:38:08.590 --> 01:38:10.534
Valdo , is recognized for his five

01:38:10.534 --> 01:38:12.479
minutes of questions . Thank you ,

01:38:12.479 --> 01:38:14.479
madam Chair . And I appreciate your

01:38:14.479 --> 01:38:16.590
first questions there . It was really

01:38:16.590 --> 01:38:18.646
what I wanted to ask as well was the

01:38:18.646 --> 01:38:20.701
ongoing research . But I did want to

01:38:20.701 --> 01:38:22.923
follow up with just a simple how can we

01:38:22.923 --> 01:38:24.930
support this research , Dr DeWitt ?

01:38:26.420 --> 01:38:28.460
Thank you . Well , I'm a scientific

01:38:28.460 --> 01:38:30.682
researcher at an academic institution .

01:38:30.682 --> 01:38:34.400
So funding for toxicological research

01:38:34.400 --> 01:38:36.567
and epidemiological research is always

01:38:36.567 --> 01:38:38.830
going to accelerate information that

01:38:38.830 --> 01:38:41.160
we're able able to develop but also

01:38:41.160 --> 01:38:43.380
funding nonprofit organizations and

01:38:43.380 --> 01:38:45.602
research at the D . O . D . To see what

01:38:45.602 --> 01:38:47.380
we can do about finding ways of

01:38:47.380 --> 01:38:49.436
degrading PFS and not just filtering

01:38:49.436 --> 01:38:51.602
them . Thank you for that question . I

01:38:51.602 --> 01:38:53.491
appreciate that . And then , uh ,

01:38:53.491 --> 01:38:55.658
personal protection . If an individual

01:38:55.658 --> 01:38:57.769
or family finds out that the drinking

01:38:57.769 --> 01:38:59.547
water contains P fast above EPA

01:38:59.547 --> 01:38:59.320
standards , what should they do to

01:38:59.320 --> 01:39:01.487
protect themselves . Besides switching

01:39:01.487 --> 01:39:03.653
the ball of water ? Is there treatment

01:39:03.653 --> 01:39:05.709
systems that work well , like , uh ,

01:39:05.709 --> 01:39:07.876
river Aro Systems or others ? Have you

01:39:07.876 --> 01:39:09.987
seen anything specific out there that

01:39:09.987 --> 01:39:12.098
we should be telling our constituents

01:39:12.098 --> 01:39:13.987
to to look towards ? So there's a

01:39:13.987 --> 01:39:16.153
really great group of researchers from

01:39:16.153 --> 01:39:18.153
North Carolina State University and

01:39:18.153 --> 01:39:20.320
Duke University who recently published

01:39:20.320 --> 01:39:22.460
a study of point of use filters that

01:39:22.460 --> 01:39:24.571
people can put into their homes . And

01:39:24.571 --> 01:39:27.140
they found that reverse osmosis filters

01:39:27.220 --> 01:39:29.490
really did a great job of filtering out

01:39:29.490 --> 01:39:31.900
most PFS , including the Legacy P fast

01:39:31.900 --> 01:39:34.178
and the ones that are the replacements ,

01:39:34.178 --> 01:39:36.410
the shorter chains . Unfortunately for

01:39:36.410 --> 01:39:38.132
many people , especially those

01:39:38.132 --> 01:39:40.299
associated with military communities ,

01:39:40.299 --> 01:39:42.243
these are cost prohibitive . So we

01:39:42.243 --> 01:39:44.466
would need some sort of grants or other

01:39:44.466 --> 01:39:46.410
assistance for people to get these

01:39:46.410 --> 01:39:48.632
point of use filters into their homes .

01:39:48.632 --> 01:39:50.577
They're also our home , whole home

01:39:50.577 --> 01:39:52.466
filters available , but those are

01:39:52.466 --> 01:39:54.632
likely cost prohibitive , except for a

01:39:54.632 --> 01:39:56.799
very few individuals , all right , and

01:39:56.799 --> 01:39:58.854
follow up with that when it comes to

01:39:58.854 --> 01:40:00.910
citywide . When you get into some of

01:40:00.910 --> 01:40:03.132
our communities and my communities tend

01:40:03.132 --> 01:40:05.243
to range from 10 to 15,000 as high as

01:40:05.243 --> 01:40:08.110
60,000 , folks in a city Have you seen

01:40:08.110 --> 01:40:10.332
any projects or any products that would

01:40:10.332 --> 01:40:12.554
work well , or or any cities that I can

01:40:12.554 --> 01:40:14.610
look to for direction on how best to

01:40:14.610 --> 01:40:16.730
handle ? Uh , P Foss in their water

01:40:16.730 --> 01:40:20.050
systems . So here in North Carolina ,

01:40:20.050 --> 01:40:21.994
we have a water system that's been

01:40:21.994 --> 01:40:24.161
contaminated with P fast , mostly from

01:40:24.161 --> 01:40:26.328
an industrial facility . One community

01:40:26.328 --> 01:40:28.960
decided to install a granular activated

01:40:28.960 --> 01:40:32.040
carbon filter , which is just filtering

01:40:32.040 --> 01:40:34.262
out the PFS . And this , I think , will

01:40:34.262 --> 01:40:36.770
be contributing water to about 250,000

01:40:36.770 --> 01:40:38.980
people just across the river and other

01:40:38.980 --> 01:40:41.100
facility has decided to institute a

01:40:41.100 --> 01:40:43.380
reverse osmosis system . And again ,

01:40:43.380 --> 01:40:45.491
that's just filtering out the water .

01:40:45.491 --> 01:40:47.658
One is more expensive than the other ,

01:40:47.658 --> 01:40:49.769
and ultimately , these costs will get

01:40:49.769 --> 01:40:51.936
handed down to the ratepayers . So the

01:40:51.936 --> 01:40:54.047
polluter isn't paying . But those who

01:40:54.047 --> 01:40:56.102
need clean water are the ones paying

01:40:56.102 --> 01:40:58.269
for these systems . All right , well ,

01:40:58.269 --> 01:41:00.380
that's all I've got . So I appreciate

01:41:00.380 --> 01:41:02.547
your time today , and I yield back the

01:41:02.547 --> 01:41:04.824
rest of my time . Thank you . Mr Valdo .

01:41:04.824 --> 01:41:06.991
Miss Pingree , you recognized for your

01:41:06.991 --> 01:41:09.213
five minutes of questions . Thank you .

01:41:09.213 --> 01:41:11.436
Um , thank you . Both of you , for your

01:41:11.436 --> 01:41:13.436
testimony . and for the work you've

01:41:13.436 --> 01:41:15.547
been doing on this really challenging

01:41:15.547 --> 01:41:17.824
topic . Um , Dr DeWitt , uh , you know ,

01:41:17.824 --> 01:41:20.370
we we heard from the military , and we

01:41:20.370 --> 01:41:22.540
know this that this process of

01:41:22.540 --> 01:41:25.700
evaluating where P fast contamination

01:41:25.700 --> 01:41:28.350
is , um , at the BRAC bases or existing

01:41:28.350 --> 01:41:32.060
bases is excruciatingly slow . Um , we

01:41:32.060 --> 01:41:34.060
were told they wouldn't even have a

01:41:34.060 --> 01:41:36.116
sense of all the bases or BRAC basis

01:41:36.116 --> 01:41:38.282
that could be contaminated till 2023 .

01:41:38.282 --> 01:41:40.393
Um , then they have to start to clean

01:41:40.393 --> 01:41:42.338
up . Can you just speculate on the

01:41:42.338 --> 01:41:44.800
health consequences of something like

01:41:44.800 --> 01:41:47.022
this that we know is a health challenge

01:41:47.022 --> 01:41:50.680
taking that long ? Okay , I don't

01:41:50.680 --> 01:41:53.110
understand really , Why it would take

01:41:53.110 --> 01:41:55.410
that long . Here in North Carolina , we

01:41:55.410 --> 01:41:58.990
have a network that was established by

01:41:58.990 --> 01:42:02.880
our state government to evaluate all of

01:42:02.880 --> 01:42:04.750
the water sources here in North

01:42:04.750 --> 01:42:06.972
Carolina , at least in public systems ,

01:42:06.972 --> 01:42:09.083
in some wells . And it's taken only a

01:42:09.083 --> 01:42:11.417
couple of years to do that surveillance .

01:42:11.417 --> 01:42:13.583
And this was for a much longer list of

01:42:13.583 --> 01:42:15.583
pee fast . Then what on what are on

01:42:15.583 --> 01:42:18.170
some of the current methods ? Every day

01:42:18.170 --> 01:42:20.114
that somebody drinks PFS , they're

01:42:20.114 --> 01:42:22.170
going to take more into their body .

01:42:22.170 --> 01:42:23.892
And as you've heard It takes a

01:42:23.892 --> 01:42:25.948
tremendously long period of time for

01:42:25.948 --> 01:42:28.170
those p fast to get eliminated from our

01:42:28.170 --> 01:42:30.114
bodies . Some can take up to eight

01:42:30.114 --> 01:42:32.226
years . I've heard reports of some of

01:42:32.226 --> 01:42:34.337
the newer preface being in our bodies

01:42:34.337 --> 01:42:36.614
for 20 years before half is eliminated .

01:42:36.614 --> 01:42:38.781
And so every little bit of exposure is

01:42:38.781 --> 01:42:40.837
going to build up that concentration

01:42:40.837 --> 01:42:40.710
inside of our bodies , so we really

01:42:40.710 --> 01:42:43.680
can't delay . So that's a good point

01:42:43.680 --> 01:42:45.680
that if North Carolina has assessed

01:42:45.680 --> 01:42:47.791
their entire state and other kinds of

01:42:47.791 --> 01:42:49.513
facilities , not just military

01:42:49.513 --> 01:42:51.736
facilities . Um , this really shouldn't

01:42:51.736 --> 01:42:53.736
have to take so long , particularly

01:42:53.736 --> 01:42:55.791
since committees like this have been

01:42:55.791 --> 01:42:57.902
offering the resources , um , to make

01:42:57.902 --> 01:43:00.010
it possible . Is that true ? Yes , I

01:43:00.010 --> 01:43:01.954
would think so . And this was done

01:43:01.954 --> 01:43:03.954
mostly by academic researchers . So

01:43:03.954 --> 01:43:06.960
teams of students and professors doing

01:43:06.960 --> 01:43:09.760
lots of amazing work to collect water

01:43:09.760 --> 01:43:11.970
and evaluate various PFS and these

01:43:11.970 --> 01:43:15.750
water sources . Thanks . Um ,

01:43:15.760 --> 01:43:17.982
Miss Brockovich , Thank you so much for

01:43:17.982 --> 01:43:20.038
the work that you've done , um , and

01:43:20.038 --> 01:43:22.093
are continuing to do . You mentioned

01:43:22.093 --> 01:43:25.780
that you hear a lot of concerns from

01:43:25.780 --> 01:43:28.002
members of the military or veterans who

01:43:28.002 --> 01:43:29.724
contact you . Looking for more

01:43:29.724 --> 01:43:31.891
information or support um , if we were

01:43:31.891 --> 01:43:34.620
to turn it around and say to the V A or ,

01:43:34.630 --> 01:43:36.852
um , Department of Defense , you know ,

01:43:36.852 --> 01:43:38.963
here's what you should be providing .

01:43:38.963 --> 01:43:40.963
Here's the level of transparency or

01:43:40.963 --> 01:43:43.019
here's the information people really

01:43:43.019 --> 01:43:45.130
want . What would you say ? Um , that

01:43:45.130 --> 01:43:47.850
they should be putting out there , um ,

01:43:47.860 --> 01:43:51.040
one having an effective communication ,

01:43:51.050 --> 01:43:54.430
um , strategy between whether it be d o .

01:43:54.430 --> 01:43:56.920
D or the V A and the military

01:43:56.920 --> 01:43:59.880
servicemen and women and their families .

01:43:59.890 --> 01:44:02.220
Their first concern is , are they still

01:44:02.220 --> 01:44:05.190
being exposed today ? If they are , how

01:44:05.190 --> 01:44:07.860
they're getting safe water ? Uh , as

01:44:07.860 --> 01:44:09.582
we've discussed , what type of

01:44:09.582 --> 01:44:11.527
filtration is that gives them some

01:44:11.527 --> 01:44:14.710
assurance . But most importantly , I

01:44:14.720 --> 01:44:17.220
know that information goes out via

01:44:17.220 --> 01:44:20.430
email and stuff . But it's like they

01:44:20.440 --> 01:44:23.580
really need a person to connect to , uh ,

01:44:23.590 --> 01:44:26.140
that they can talk with and so that

01:44:26.140 --> 01:44:28.196
they feel that they're being heard .

01:44:28.196 --> 01:44:30.720
And that just adds to the compound and

01:44:30.720 --> 01:44:32.776
their angst . Uh , we're not getting

01:44:32.776 --> 01:44:34.553
questions and answers . They're

01:44:34.553 --> 01:44:36.498
concerned about themselves , their

01:44:36.498 --> 01:44:38.498
spouses , their Children . Are they

01:44:38.498 --> 01:44:40.720
getting safe water at that moment ? How

01:44:40.720 --> 01:44:42.942
do they get it ? And just not being put

01:44:42.942 --> 01:44:45.109
off ? Um , that goes a really , really

01:44:45.109 --> 01:44:46.942
long way there seems to be a big

01:44:46.942 --> 01:44:48.998
disconnect between the D . O . D and

01:44:48.998 --> 01:44:50.831
the V A and their communications

01:44:50.831 --> 01:44:53.280
directly with the service members and

01:44:53.280 --> 01:44:56.150
their families . And it would . It

01:44:56.150 --> 01:44:59.290
would go a long way for their well

01:44:59.290 --> 01:45:01.346
being because they're already facing

01:45:01.346 --> 01:45:03.512
the fact that they've been exposed and

01:45:03.512 --> 01:45:07.090
they're frightened to hear from you

01:45:07.100 --> 01:45:09.980
or meetings or get them together as a

01:45:09.980 --> 01:45:13.850
group . What is happening ? So there's

01:45:13.850 --> 01:45:15.906
a breakdown in communication , and I

01:45:15.906 --> 01:45:18.239
think it is critical that that happened .

01:45:18.690 --> 01:45:20.990
Thank you . It seems like the least

01:45:20.990 --> 01:45:23.212
that could be done is to provide people

01:45:23.212 --> 01:45:25.101
with the information about health

01:45:25.101 --> 01:45:27.101
impacts that may be experiencing at

01:45:27.101 --> 01:45:29.268
that moment in time , particularly for

01:45:29.268 --> 01:45:31.323
those who are serving our country or

01:45:31.323 --> 01:45:33.546
have served our country . Um , one more

01:45:33.546 --> 01:45:35.601
question . I'm running out of time ,

01:45:35.601 --> 01:45:35.490
but quickly , Doctor , do it . Um , I

01:45:35.490 --> 01:45:37.657
think the chair really tried to allude

01:45:37.657 --> 01:45:39.657
to this , and and the thing that we

01:45:39.657 --> 01:45:41.657
heard from the V A from the sort of

01:45:41.657 --> 01:45:43.879
health side was that if there was a way

01:45:43.879 --> 01:45:45.879
to test someone when they say , for

01:45:45.879 --> 01:45:47.990
instance , came into the military and

01:45:47.990 --> 01:45:50.046
then you know after they were out of

01:45:50.046 --> 01:45:52.212
the military at some point to see what

01:45:52.212 --> 01:45:54.379
that exposure was Because of this idea

01:45:54.379 --> 01:45:56.712
that you could have high levels already .

01:45:56.712 --> 01:45:58.546
Is that even a practical idea to

01:45:58.546 --> 01:46:00.490
determine You know how much people

01:46:00.490 --> 01:46:02.657
could be impacted during their time in

01:46:02.657 --> 01:46:05.750
service ? I think so . These are are

01:46:05.750 --> 01:46:07.972
long lived chemicals , and we have some

01:46:07.972 --> 01:46:09.639
really smart chemists who are

01:46:09.639 --> 01:46:11.361
developing some fingerprinting

01:46:11.361 --> 01:46:13.250
approaches . So you could look at

01:46:13.250 --> 01:46:15.472
somebody's P fast before they enter the

01:46:15.472 --> 01:46:17.639
military in their blood and say , Oh ,

01:46:17.639 --> 01:46:19.583
that looks like these are the ones

01:46:19.583 --> 01:46:21.694
found mostly in food or in textiles .

01:46:21.694 --> 01:46:23.861
And then after their service , you can

01:46:23.861 --> 01:46:26.083
go . Oh , yes . This profile is clearly

01:46:26.083 --> 01:46:28.250
indicative of a triple F exposure . So

01:46:28.250 --> 01:46:30.250
we're developing ways that may make

01:46:30.250 --> 01:46:32.472
that very feasible . Thank you . Thanks

01:46:32.472 --> 01:46:34.583
again for your work . Appreciate it .

01:46:34.583 --> 01:46:36.806
You're back , I'm sure . Thank you . Mr

01:46:36.806 --> 01:46:39.028
Pingree generally yields back that that

01:46:39.028 --> 01:46:40.972
last one was a great follow up . I

01:46:40.972 --> 01:46:43.306
appreciate that . Um OK , Mr Rutherford ,

01:46:43.306 --> 01:46:45.250
you recognized for five minutes of

01:46:45.250 --> 01:46:49.040
questions . Thank you , Madam Chair

01:46:49.050 --> 01:46:51.420
and Dr Darwin . I want to kind of

01:46:51.420 --> 01:46:55.130
continue down this road . Uh uh ,

01:46:55.140 --> 01:46:57.890
Congresswoman Tengri was going ,

01:46:58.930 --> 01:47:02.730
and that is when When I when I

01:47:02.730 --> 01:47:05.420
see your statement and realized that

01:47:05.420 --> 01:47:09.210
Caiaphas is in 10,000 compounds .

01:47:10.080 --> 01:47:13.220
Um , and it's in things like

01:47:13.230 --> 01:47:16.330
nonstick pans . And , uh , you know , I

01:47:16.330 --> 01:47:18.441
think I heard that when when nonstick

01:47:18.441 --> 01:47:21.060
pans first came out . Actually , um ,

01:47:21.070 --> 01:47:24.360
that there were cancer causing elements

01:47:24.370 --> 01:47:27.180
in that , uh and that's back when you

01:47:27.180 --> 01:47:29.990
could scrape it and it would come off .

01:47:30.480 --> 01:47:32.536
I think they've done a better job of

01:47:32.536 --> 01:47:34.813
that now . But then even you mentioned ,

01:47:34.813 --> 01:47:36.970
uh , I think permanent press clothing

01:47:36.970 --> 01:47:39.026
and those sorts of things where this

01:47:39.026 --> 01:47:41.192
chemical , some of these compounds are

01:47:41.192 --> 01:47:44.380
being used . Ah , where

01:47:44.380 --> 01:47:47.810
does when we look at the EPA standards ?

01:47:48.480 --> 01:47:52.430
I'm shocked when when I see 70 parts

01:47:52.430 --> 01:47:55.400
from four trillion level ,

01:47:56.080 --> 01:47:58.120
that's that's the current E p a

01:47:58.120 --> 01:48:00.540
standard . Is that right ? Or is that

01:48:00.540 --> 01:48:04.000
just for this pain triple F from build ?

01:48:04.770 --> 01:48:08.090
So the current E p . A lifetime health

01:48:08.100 --> 01:48:10.100
advisory , which remember , is in a

01:48:10.100 --> 01:48:12.800
standard it has no regulatory teeth is

01:48:12.800 --> 01:48:15.720
70 parts per trillion in drinking water ,

01:48:15.720 --> 01:48:18.670
and it's just for two individual P fast

01:48:18.680 --> 01:48:21.040
perfluorooctanoic acid , or P F O . A

01:48:21.040 --> 01:48:23.207
and perfluorooctanoic al phonic acid ,

01:48:23.207 --> 01:48:26.430
or P . F . O . S . Okay , and and the

01:48:26.430 --> 01:48:30.380
recommendation that it should be 10

01:48:30.380 --> 01:48:33.730
to 20 parts . Portraying is that Is

01:48:33.730 --> 01:48:36.270
that more Atlantic where you think it

01:48:36.270 --> 01:48:38.381
should be ? And where did that number

01:48:38.381 --> 01:48:41.740
come from ? So my my line of thinking

01:48:41.740 --> 01:48:45.160
is that these are synthetic industrial

01:48:45.160 --> 01:48:47.910
compounds that really the acceptable

01:48:47.910 --> 01:48:49.910
level should be zero . We shouldn't

01:48:49.910 --> 01:48:51.854
have any of these compounds in our

01:48:51.854 --> 01:48:54.021
water and our air and our food and our

01:48:54.021 --> 01:48:56.200
bodies . But some states have taken an

01:48:56.200 --> 01:48:58.430
approach by using data from the immune

01:48:58.430 --> 01:49:00.541
system , for example , because it's a

01:49:00.541 --> 01:49:03.280
sensitive system that's affected by PFS

01:49:03.370 --> 01:49:05.040
and have come up with maximum

01:49:05.040 --> 01:49:07.151
contaminant levels for drinking water

01:49:07.151 --> 01:49:10.500
of anywhere from about 8 to 13 or so

01:49:10.500 --> 01:49:14.250
parts per trillion , Right ? So ? So if

01:49:14.250 --> 01:49:16.800
I now you mentioned that they can that

01:49:16.800 --> 01:49:18.967
they can tell the difference between a

01:49:18.967 --> 01:49:22.820
triple F uh , he falls

01:49:22.820 --> 01:49:25.910
contamination and whether it's coming

01:49:25.910 --> 01:49:29.280
from some other industrial source . Um ,

01:49:30.270 --> 01:49:33.620
if I guess my question is , if I If I

01:49:33.620 --> 01:49:36.750
take my tap water at my house and

01:49:36.750 --> 01:49:40.040
haven't tested , can they give me P

01:49:40.040 --> 01:49:43.600
Foss information on what's in my water ?

01:49:44.370 --> 01:49:48.260
Uh , how expensive is that ? And

01:49:48.260 --> 01:49:51.300
can people do that ? Are their labs out

01:49:51.300 --> 01:49:53.690
there that do those tests for citizens .

01:49:54.570 --> 01:49:57.210
So there are some commercial testing

01:49:57.210 --> 01:50:00.500
labs available , but they only test for

01:50:00.510 --> 01:50:02.990
a suite of P fast . And these are labs

01:50:02.990 --> 01:50:05.323
that are certified by the United States ,

01:50:05.323 --> 01:50:07.212
E P . A . And there's a couple of

01:50:07.212 --> 01:50:09.212
different methods . Method 5 37 and

01:50:09.212 --> 01:50:11.323
method 5 37.1 . I think those covered

01:50:11.323 --> 01:50:14.980
24 individual p fast . So out of the

01:50:14.980 --> 01:50:17.790
10,000 , we only test for about 24 .

01:50:18.060 --> 01:50:21.240
And these tests , I think , cost about

01:50:21.250 --> 01:50:24.980
300 to $500 for a sample of water , and

01:50:24.980 --> 01:50:27.380
you would get information back on what

01:50:27.860 --> 01:50:30.560
level these 24 different p fast would

01:50:30.560 --> 01:50:34.060
be in your water . Okay , all right .

01:50:34.070 --> 01:50:38.050
And so you mentioned that you can also

01:50:38.050 --> 01:50:41.110
do blood testing and you can find peace

01:50:41.120 --> 01:50:43.370
fast in your blood .

01:50:45.460 --> 01:50:47.460
The Centers for Disease Control and

01:50:47.460 --> 01:50:49.460
Prevention , through their National

01:50:49.460 --> 01:50:51.793
Health and Nutrition Examination Survey ,

01:50:51.793 --> 01:50:53.571
has been testing for P fasts in

01:50:53.571 --> 01:50:55.738
people's blood in people's urine for a

01:50:55.738 --> 01:50:59.170
number of years . And 1998 to 99% of

01:50:59.170 --> 01:51:01.281
the people who they test through that

01:51:01.281 --> 01:51:04.070
have detectable concentrations of at

01:51:04.070 --> 01:51:06.330
least one individual p fast in their

01:51:06.330 --> 01:51:08.610
blood . You probably have PFS in your

01:51:08.610 --> 01:51:10.666
blood . I know I do , because I work

01:51:10.666 --> 01:51:13.060
with them , and most people around you

01:51:13.060 --> 01:51:15.400
likely have one or more individual PFS

01:51:15.400 --> 01:51:19.320
in their blood . Well , I'm I'm sure I

01:51:19.320 --> 01:51:21.330
do too , because there's 10,000

01:51:21.330 --> 01:51:24.540
compounds out there with the Pfosten I

01:51:24.540 --> 01:51:28.000
had . So is this a naturally occurring ,

01:51:28.010 --> 01:51:32.000
uh , thing or or is it may have

01:51:32.000 --> 01:51:34.140
made . Oh , no . These are these are

01:51:34.140 --> 01:51:36.473
synthetic . So they were made by people .

01:51:36.473 --> 01:51:38.640
They were developed in the 19 thirties

01:51:38.640 --> 01:51:40.640
or forties . I can't remember which

01:51:40.640 --> 01:51:42.529
decade , and they were sort of by

01:51:42.529 --> 01:51:44.380
accident . So we built these 10

01:51:44.380 --> 01:51:47.670
channels and compounds , so some of

01:51:47.670 --> 01:51:50.570
them were constructed specifically for

01:51:50.570 --> 01:51:52.681
use and chemical processes . But some

01:51:52.681 --> 01:51:55.140
of them are by products . Some of them

01:51:55.140 --> 01:51:57.260
aren't intentionally produced , their

01:51:57.260 --> 01:51:59.093
produced accidentally . When you

01:51:59.093 --> 01:52:01.204
release one compound in the water and

01:52:01.204 --> 01:52:03.180
it degrades . So there is some

01:52:03.180 --> 01:52:05.069
degradation of P fast . These are

01:52:05.069 --> 01:52:06.902
considered precursors , but they

01:52:06.902 --> 01:52:09.013
degrade to other P fast that are then

01:52:09.013 --> 01:52:12.260
stable and persistent . Thank you very

01:52:12.260 --> 01:52:15.060
much . Uh , I just learned more about

01:52:15.060 --> 01:52:17.116
this than I ever knew , so thank you

01:52:17.116 --> 01:52:19.760
very much . Uh , I see my time is

01:52:19.760 --> 01:52:21.816
running out , man . I'm sure I yield

01:52:21.816 --> 01:52:24.038
back . Thank you , Mr Releford . Yeah ,

01:52:24.038 --> 01:52:26.204
you can see why they're called Forever

01:52:26.204 --> 01:52:28.520
Chemicals . Uh , based on Dr DeWitt's

01:52:28.520 --> 01:52:31.610
testimony . Um , okay , Mr Bishop .

01:52:31.620 --> 01:52:33.850
Welcome . You're recognized for five

01:52:33.850 --> 01:52:37.690
minutes of questions . I will not have

01:52:37.690 --> 01:52:40.200
five minutes . But let me thank Dr

01:52:40.210 --> 01:52:42.099
DeWitt and Mr Brockovich for that

01:52:42.099 --> 01:52:44.920
testimony apologized for not having

01:52:44.920 --> 01:52:46.920
been earlier . I was presiding over

01:52:46.920 --> 01:52:50.610
another hearing , but let me just

01:52:50.610 --> 01:52:52.990
ask you . And at the risk of being

01:52:52.990 --> 01:52:56.230
redundant , uh , just state what really

01:52:56.230 --> 01:52:58.650
meaningful changes that you believe

01:52:58.650 --> 01:53:01.030
that the Department of Defense has made

01:53:01.030 --> 01:53:03.260
to address P fast contamination . The

01:53:03.260 --> 01:53:05.538
most meaningful , the most significant .

01:53:05.538 --> 01:53:08.000
And , uh , do you feel that they are

01:53:08.000 --> 01:53:10.222
addressing the problem effectively , or

01:53:10.222 --> 01:53:12.222
do you think there needs to be more

01:53:12.222 --> 01:53:14.333
involvement from D . O . D . And from

01:53:14.333 --> 01:53:16.444
the Environmental Protection Agency ?

01:53:17.150 --> 01:53:19.950
Would you like me to address that or

01:53:19.950 --> 01:53:21.080
Miss Brockovich ?

01:53:23.750 --> 01:53:26.460
Well , then I think you're on mute of

01:53:26.460 --> 01:53:29.930
you if you like . Uh , so I'm a

01:53:29.930 --> 01:53:32.910
laboratory scientist , and I have

01:53:32.910 --> 01:53:34.966
several colleagues who have received

01:53:34.966 --> 01:53:37.210
funds from the d o . D through some of

01:53:37.210 --> 01:53:39.210
their environmental programs . So I

01:53:39.210 --> 01:53:41.440
think that the D . O . D . Has been

01:53:41.440 --> 01:53:43.670
making some efforts in terms of under

01:53:44.450 --> 01:53:47.710
Yeah , how fast can affect organisms in

01:53:47.710 --> 01:53:49.950
the environment . But I haven't seen

01:53:49.950 --> 01:53:52.172
that type of funding from the D . O d .

01:53:52.172 --> 01:53:54.283
At least from the scientific realm to

01:53:54.283 --> 01:53:56.680
ask questions about effects of PFS on

01:53:56.680 --> 01:53:58.960
the health of military personnel , both

01:53:58.970 --> 01:54:01.820
active duty and veterans . Uh , so I

01:54:01.820 --> 01:54:04.042
would like to see more efforts put into

01:54:04.042 --> 01:54:06.460
that type of research . And they

01:54:06.460 --> 01:54:08.571
certainly need more funding from this

01:54:08.571 --> 01:54:11.360
committee , for example , to facilitate

01:54:11.360 --> 01:54:13.360
cleanup efforts at some of the most

01:54:13.360 --> 01:54:17.270
contaminated sites . Mhm . Thank

01:54:17.270 --> 01:54:21.070
you . Uh , I I will later ,

01:54:21.080 --> 01:54:23.230
uh , respond there and interject

01:54:23.240 --> 01:54:25.518
hearing from the service men and women .

01:54:25.518 --> 01:54:27.740
Um , there has been some action taken .

01:54:27.740 --> 01:54:29.796
It's been slow , it's been delayed .

01:54:29.796 --> 01:54:32.500
And it's a situation that's getting way

01:54:32.500 --> 01:54:36.340
ahead of the D . O . D and the V A .

01:54:36.350 --> 01:54:39.900
So I would share with you that service

01:54:39.900 --> 01:54:43.500
members would feel that quicker

01:54:43.500 --> 01:54:46.450
responses are going to be needed . Um ,

01:54:46.460 --> 01:54:49.370
that it has been slow and delayed and

01:54:50.440 --> 01:54:52.718
concerns that is getting ahead of them .

01:54:54.240 --> 01:54:57.640
Thank you both for for your candid ,

01:54:57.650 --> 01:55:00.370
uh , comments there . And with that , I

01:55:00.370 --> 01:55:02.592
would yield back my time . Adam share .

01:55:03.440 --> 01:55:05.830
Thank you , Mr Bishop . I'm not sure if

01:55:05.830 --> 01:55:07.830
the other members having additional

01:55:07.830 --> 01:55:09.941
questions . I have one . So I'm going

01:55:09.941 --> 01:55:13.070
to , uh , um asked that and then happy

01:55:13.070 --> 01:55:15.181
to recognize any of the other members

01:55:15.181 --> 01:55:17.420
who are remaining on the on the on the

01:55:17.420 --> 01:55:20.230
meeting . Um , Miss Brockovich , I want

01:55:20.230 --> 01:55:23.230
to ask you about the role that FIFA

01:55:23.230 --> 01:55:25.530
suppliers , like three m have played in

01:55:25.530 --> 01:55:27.740
the story . The oversight committee on

01:55:27.740 --> 01:55:29.980
which I also sit has done a lot of

01:55:29.980 --> 01:55:32.147
investigatory work in this space . And

01:55:32.147 --> 01:55:34.860
what we found is disturbing . Uh , the

01:55:35.440 --> 01:55:38.910
the testimony from three m DuPont other

01:55:38.910 --> 01:55:42.480
companies really was about as

01:55:42.480 --> 01:55:44.591
opaque as it could be . And they made

01:55:44.591 --> 01:55:46.758
every effort not to answer questions ,

01:55:46.758 --> 01:55:49.260
to deny , to deceive . Um , so I'm

01:55:49.260 --> 01:55:51.204
curious to learn about what you've

01:55:51.204 --> 01:55:53.371
encountered with this history of cover

01:55:53.371 --> 01:55:55.538
up and perception and one of those who

01:55:55.538 --> 01:55:57.482
have been affected by FIFA's think

01:55:57.482 --> 01:55:59.482
about this as far as what should be

01:55:59.482 --> 01:56:02.090
done . Uh , well , I I share with you ,

01:56:02.090 --> 01:56:04.090
and I've seen the same cover up the

01:56:04.090 --> 01:56:06.312
fact that this has been known since the

01:56:06.312 --> 01:56:08.368
early sixties , that it was a cancer

01:56:08.368 --> 01:56:10.970
causing compound in studies and how it

01:56:10.970 --> 01:56:14.090
was concealed and kept from from

01:56:14.100 --> 01:56:18.090
everybody . Um and where are delays in

01:56:18.100 --> 01:56:20.470
jumping in and stopping it before the

01:56:20.470 --> 01:56:22.470
horse got out of the barn . Because

01:56:22.470 --> 01:56:24.581
that's exactly what's happened . It's

01:56:24.581 --> 01:56:24.580
gonna be really hard for us to bring it

01:56:24.580 --> 01:56:27.600
back . It's extremely frustrating for

01:56:27.600 --> 01:56:29.530
the people . I mean , they were

01:56:29.530 --> 01:56:32.190
helpless . They were vulnerable . Uh ,

01:56:32.200 --> 01:56:34.256
they had no idea what was coming and

01:56:34.256 --> 01:56:37.340
just the sheer idea that something of

01:56:37.340 --> 01:56:40.820
this magnitude was covered up and they

01:56:40.820 --> 01:56:43.630
have to suffer that fate with poor

01:56:43.630 --> 01:56:47.150
health and or diseases is , um ,

01:56:48.730 --> 01:56:50.897
I almost don't have any words for it ,

01:56:50.897 --> 01:56:53.119
and I don't know that they do . I think

01:56:53.119 --> 01:56:54.619
it is out of frustration ,

01:56:54.619 --> 01:56:58.240
disappointment , sickening fear and ,

01:56:58.250 --> 01:57:01.060
um , delays . And not getting responses

01:57:01.060 --> 01:57:03.227
just makes it that much worse . I have

01:57:03.227 --> 01:57:05.880
seen exactly what you have , and , um ,

01:57:05.890 --> 01:57:09.260
it's deplorable and they are going to

01:57:09.260 --> 01:57:12.340
have to suffer the outcome . And

01:57:13.330 --> 01:57:15.960
it's deeply saddening for them .

01:57:18.130 --> 01:57:21.720
Thank you . Yeah , it is very troubling

01:57:21.730 --> 01:57:24.180
that we have had I mean , we keep

01:57:24.180 --> 01:57:26.236
making reference to the sixties that

01:57:26.236 --> 01:57:28.402
that this has been known to be a toxic

01:57:28.402 --> 01:57:30.730
substance that's my entire life .

01:57:30.740 --> 01:57:34.250
Literally . I would imagine that it's

01:57:34.260 --> 01:57:38.220
yours as well . So we I mean to have

01:57:38.220 --> 01:57:41.060
gone through this amount of deception

01:57:41.060 --> 01:57:44.080
and stonewalling and opacity . Um , and

01:57:44.080 --> 01:57:46.720
now to have the foot dragging that is

01:57:46.720 --> 01:57:49.210
going on in terms of making sure that

01:57:49.210 --> 01:57:51.400
we can get our own government agencies

01:57:51.400 --> 01:57:54.600
to take this seriously to a gay engage

01:57:54.600 --> 01:57:58.450
in aggressive cleanup is very . It's

01:57:58.450 --> 01:58:00.617
more than frustrating . It's dangerous

01:58:00.617 --> 01:58:03.120
and , you know , every every year that

01:58:03.120 --> 01:58:06.960
we that we take to not aggressively

01:58:06.960 --> 01:58:09.270
get this stuff cleaned up and cease its

01:58:09.270 --> 01:58:11.250
use is another year that we are

01:58:11.250 --> 01:58:13.760
exposing no matter what , where , where

01:58:13.760 --> 01:58:15.920
else ? I don't really care where else

01:58:15.920 --> 01:58:18.530
they get that , that people get exposed .

01:58:18.540 --> 01:58:20.762
I know I'm as chair of the subcommittee

01:58:20.762 --> 01:58:22.984
responsible for making sure that we can

01:58:22.984 --> 01:58:25.580
provide the funding to at least address

01:58:25.580 --> 01:58:27.820
the exposure that results from their

01:58:27.820 --> 01:58:30.730
military service and making sure that

01:58:30.730 --> 01:58:33.550
the V A can take care of the health

01:58:33.550 --> 01:58:35.550
care problems that result from that

01:58:35.550 --> 01:58:37.383
exposure . That's our job on the

01:58:37.383 --> 01:58:39.383
subcommittee and and , you know , I

01:58:39.383 --> 01:58:41.494
certainly want to would be actually a

01:58:41.494 --> 01:58:44.130
great idea to track the level of

01:58:44.130 --> 01:58:46.840
exposure in the bloodstream of a person

01:58:46.840 --> 01:58:49.380
who enters military service . Um , and

01:58:49.380 --> 01:58:51.760
then , uh , you know , as they proceed

01:58:51.760 --> 01:58:53.982
through their life cycle as a member of

01:58:53.982 --> 01:58:56.149
the military on into their status as a

01:58:56.149 --> 01:58:58.260
veteran . Uh , and then at the end of

01:58:58.260 --> 01:59:00.482
their military service , see where they

01:59:00.482 --> 01:59:02.427
are . Because then , you Christ by

01:59:02.427 --> 01:59:04.704
process of elimination and subtraction ,

01:59:04.704 --> 01:59:06.704
you could really determine how much

01:59:06.704 --> 01:59:08.704
it's more exposure they've had as a

01:59:08.704 --> 01:59:10.816
result of their service . Or at least

01:59:10.816 --> 01:59:12.871
to some degree . So that that that's

01:59:12.871 --> 01:59:15.290
that's my goal . Um , and and so that's

01:59:15.290 --> 01:59:17.290
why this this hearing has been more

01:59:17.290 --> 01:59:19.623
wide ranging than just being limited to ,

01:59:19.623 --> 01:59:21.734
you know , how quickly are we getting

01:59:21.734 --> 01:59:24.280
the BRAC ? The Brak base is cleaned up

01:59:24.290 --> 01:59:26.401
because it's a lot deeper than that ,

01:59:26.401 --> 01:59:28.568
particularly because we're responsible

01:59:28.568 --> 01:59:30.679
for the health of our veterans . So I

01:59:30.679 --> 01:59:32.734
understand Mr Valid ao does not have

01:59:32.734 --> 01:59:34.901
any additional questions . Mr . Bishop

01:59:34.901 --> 01:59:35.901
to you .

01:59:38.650 --> 01:59:41.100
Okay . All right , well , that

01:59:41.100 --> 01:59:43.156
concludes this morning . Excuse me .

01:59:43.156 --> 01:59:45.100
This afternoon's hearing I want to

01:59:45.100 --> 01:59:47.211
thank our witnesses for participating

01:59:47.211 --> 01:59:49.322
today . We look forward to continuing

01:59:49.322 --> 01:59:51.378
to work with you . And thank you for

01:59:51.378 --> 01:59:53.600
making time , both of you to contribute

01:59:53.600 --> 01:59:55.433
to this body of work that we are

01:59:55.433 --> 01:59:57.730
reviewing . And with that , the

01:59:57.740 --> 02:00:00.800
subcommittee stands adjourned . Thank

02:00:00.800 --> 02:00:01.240
you .