WEBVTT 00:01.290 --> 00:03.250 - Good morning and welcome, everyone. 00:03.250 --> 00:04.210 My name is Fred Kempe. 00:04.210 --> 00:06.500 I'm President and CEO of the Atlantic Council. 00:06.500 --> 00:07.920 And thank you for joining us 00:07.920 --> 00:11.700 for this important and timely event this morning. 00:11.700 --> 00:13.100 I want to give a warm welcome 00:13.100 --> 00:15.300 to the U.S. Special Representative for Venezuela, 00:15.300 --> 00:20.220 Elliott Abrams, who I've known for many decades. 00:20.220 --> 00:22.550 I don't want to count all of them. 00:22.550 --> 00:24.810 The Venezuelan Ambassador to the U.S., Carlos Vecchio, 00:24.810 --> 00:26.610 thank you for your leadership, sir. 00:26.610 --> 00:28.390 And many other ambassadors and members 00:28.390 --> 00:29.390 of the diplomatic corps, 00:29.390 --> 00:30.837 as well as Atlantic Council board members 00:30.837 --> 00:32.870 who are here with us today. 00:32.870 --> 00:35.160 For those of you watching today's event, 00:35.160 --> 00:39.480 please feel free to tweet using the hashtag #ACVenezuela, 00:39.480 --> 00:40.847 so #ACVenezuela. 00:42.890 --> 00:44.900 The Atlantic Council's committed 00:44.900 --> 00:48.690 to helping Venezuela's legitimate democratic leaders, 00:48.690 --> 00:52.100 the National Assembly and interim president Juan Guaido, 00:52.100 --> 00:54.110 in concert with the international community, 00:54.110 --> 00:56.890 the Lima Group, members of Europe, 00:56.890 --> 00:58.920 democracies across the world, 00:58.920 --> 01:00.510 to bring this crisis to an end, 01:00.510 --> 01:02.710 while building a path toward 01:02.710 --> 01:06.150 a sustainable democratic future for Venezuela. 01:06.150 --> 01:08.160 This event is one of many of 01:08.160 --> 01:11.360 the Atlantic Council's efforts to help Venezuelans 01:11.360 --> 01:14.560 regain the future they so richly deserve. 01:14.560 --> 01:16.880 There is a contest going on globally 01:18.040 --> 01:20.343 between democracies and autocracies. 01:21.220 --> 01:23.800 And Venezuela, the outcome in Venezuela 01:23.800 --> 01:26.540 will have not only national consequences, 01:26.540 --> 01:28.440 a horrendous dictatorship, 01:28.440 --> 01:31.230 one of the worst humanitarian disasters 01:31.230 --> 01:33.090 one can imagine in the world. 01:33.090 --> 01:37.600 So the national, local consequences, regional consequences, 01:37.600 --> 01:41.600 but we think it also has global importance. 01:41.600 --> 01:43.560 Today's event, with the participation 01:43.560 --> 01:47.320 of Venezuelan actors from across the political spectrum, 01:47.320 --> 01:48.260 let me underline that, 01:48.260 --> 01:50.780 from across the political spectrum, 01:50.780 --> 01:52.670 demonstrates a growing understanding 01:52.670 --> 01:55.670 that the path to a peaceful democratic future 01:55.670 --> 01:59.330 and a return to a pluralistic, liberal democracy 01:59.330 --> 02:02.350 in Venezuela, requires the inclusion, 02:02.350 --> 02:05.280 the inclusion of diverse voices, 02:05.280 --> 02:08.170 experiences, and political affiliations. 02:08.170 --> 02:09.003 I think one of the things 02:09.003 --> 02:13.560 that we've really seen has set this situation apart 02:13.560 --> 02:16.520 is the unity of actors in Latin America, 02:16.520 --> 02:21.230 and also the unity of actors within Venezuela, 02:21.230 --> 02:23.700 democratic actors within Venezuela. 02:23.700 --> 02:25.580 As we work to shape this future together, 02:25.580 --> 02:28.860 I'm delighted to welcome to the Atlantic Council 02:28.860 --> 02:31.210 the U.S. Special Representative for Venezuela, 02:31.210 --> 02:32.650 Elliott Abrams. 02:32.650 --> 02:34.860 Elliott's long career in foreign affairs 02:34.860 --> 02:37.530 includes many senior leadership roles 02:37.530 --> 02:39.840 within the U.S. Department of State. 02:39.840 --> 02:40.910 Under President Reagan, 02:40.910 --> 02:42.900 he served as Assistant Secretary of State 02:42.900 --> 02:45.540 for Human Rights and Humanitarian Affairs, 02:45.540 --> 02:49.210 and Assistant Secretary for Inter-American Affairs. 02:49.210 --> 02:51.410 Under President George W. Bush, 02:51.410 --> 02:54.230 he served on the National Security Council 02:54.230 --> 02:55.330 as the Senior Director 02:55.330 --> 02:58.570 for North African and Near East Affairs, 02:58.570 --> 03:00.390 and Deputy National Security Advisor 03:00.390 --> 03:03.020 for Global Democracy Strategy. 03:03.020 --> 03:05.690 Following Special Representative Abram's speech, 03:05.690 --> 03:07.470 he will join a follow-up discussion, 03:07.470 --> 03:11.020 moderated by Adrienne Arsht Latin America Center Director, 03:11.020 --> 03:13.600 Jason Marczak, with Carlos Vecchio, 03:13.600 --> 03:14.950 ambassador to the U.S. 03:14.950 --> 03:17.140 of the interim government of Venezuela, 03:17.140 --> 03:19.470 Jonathan Powell, Associate Professor 03:19.470 --> 03:21.400 at the University of Central Florida, 03:21.400 --> 03:23.450 and, via video conference, 03:23.450 --> 03:27.850 Gabriela Ramirez, former Ombudswoman of the Venezuelan 03:27.850 --> 03:30.220 Supreme Court of Justice. 03:30.220 --> 03:31.950 So now, please join me in welcoming 03:31.950 --> 03:34.816 Special Representative Elliott Abrams to the stage. 03:34.816 --> 03:37.983 (audience applauding) 03:41.440 --> 03:42.690 - Thanks very much, Fred. 03:44.320 --> 03:47.410 I'm delighted to be here today at the Atlantic Council 03:48.410 --> 03:50.743 to discuss the crisis in Venezuela. 03:52.500 --> 03:54.810 But I would actually like to do more 03:54.810 --> 03:58.615 than describe that crisis. 03:58.615 --> 04:00.560 Venezuelans deserve to hear our views, 04:00.560 --> 04:03.110 not only about today's Venezuela, 04:03.110 --> 04:06.270 but also about tomorrow's. 04:06.270 --> 04:10.890 Today, Venezuelans obviously face enormous challenges, 04:10.890 --> 04:13.740 such as lack of food and medicine, 04:13.740 --> 04:17.560 electricity and clean water, widespread poverty, 04:17.560 --> 04:21.993 lost work opportunities, and government oppression. 04:22.900 --> 04:27.580 Very few countries have ever seen such a political, 04:27.580 --> 04:31.810 social, and economic calamity befall them 04:31.810 --> 04:35.730 after decades of democracy and prosperity. 04:35.730 --> 04:39.483 The suffering in Venezuela is almost unbelievable. 04:40.770 --> 04:42.270 When I first began to work 04:42.270 --> 04:45.730 on Latin American affairs almost 40 years ago, 04:45.730 --> 04:49.570 Venezuela was one of only two real democracies 04:49.570 --> 04:52.970 in Latin America along with Costa Rica, 04:52.970 --> 04:57.050 and it was the richest nation in the region. 04:57.050 --> 05:02.050 It was an anchor of stability in an often turbulent region. 05:03.550 --> 05:06.260 It was not only the birthplace of Bolivar, 05:06.260 --> 05:09.440 but a beacon of his ideals. 05:09.440 --> 05:12.530 And Venezuela supported struggling democratic 05:12.530 --> 05:15.373 movements across the hemisphere. 05:16.210 --> 05:19.250 Its government, and its political opposition, 05:19.250 --> 05:21.733 were the model for many democratic actors. 05:22.880 --> 05:27.400 Just as it helped others achieve freedom, 05:27.400 --> 05:29.740 it was generous with its wealth, 05:29.740 --> 05:32.230 and took in migrants and refugees 05:32.230 --> 05:35.550 from across the hemisphere, and from Europe. 05:35.550 --> 05:38.640 Hundreds of thousands of immigrants brought their talent 05:38.640 --> 05:41.730 to Venezuela where they were able to thrive, 05:41.730 --> 05:43.680 and contribute to the country's future. 05:45.310 --> 05:50.310 So the current state of affairs is not normal for Venezuela, 05:50.530 --> 05:53.710 it is not acceptable for Venezuelans, 05:53.710 --> 05:58.710 and I am absolutely convinced it is not Venezuela's destiny. 06:00.070 --> 06:02.420 The nation's history reminds us 06:02.420 --> 06:05.340 of the tremendous potential Venezuela has, 06:05.340 --> 06:07.820 and the country it will be 06:07.820 --> 06:10.303 when it escapes the current disaster. 06:11.790 --> 06:16.150 What does that new Venezuela look like? 06:16.150 --> 06:19.028 Just imagine a Venezuela where you can pay for dinner 06:19.028 --> 06:23.643 using the bolivars you have in your pocket. 06:24.730 --> 06:27.740 Imagine a Venezuela where there are no blackouts 06:27.740 --> 06:31.173 and clean water pours out of the tap. 06:32.140 --> 06:37.140 Imagine a Venezuela where eggs are no longer a luxury, 06:37.420 --> 06:40.283 but part of the diet of all families. 06:41.270 --> 06:43.500 Imagine a Venezuela with 5G internet 06:43.500 --> 06:45.533 and no government censorship. 06:47.806 --> 06:49.790 A Venezuela, the country with the largest 06:49.790 --> 06:51.990 proven oil reserves in the world, 06:51.990 --> 06:56.323 where you do not have to wait in line to fill your gas tank. 06:57.970 --> 07:00.570 Imagine a Venezuela where you can walk 07:00.570 --> 07:02.890 with your family at night without fear, 07:02.890 --> 07:06.190 and where well-trained community police 07:07.100 --> 07:09.230 care for your safety. 07:09.230 --> 07:13.690 Imagine graduating from a university, buying a car, 07:13.690 --> 07:16.870 and knowing that you will be able to work, 07:16.870 --> 07:20.973 and save and someday buy a house. 07:21.860 --> 07:25.730 Imagine a Venezuela without preventable 07:25.730 --> 07:27.950 and debilitating diseases, 07:27.950 --> 07:30.170 and with some of the best doctors 07:30.170 --> 07:32.853 and hospitals in the world. 07:34.120 --> 07:38.090 Imagine being able to travel throughout this hemisphere 07:38.090 --> 07:40.900 in the world, not as a refugee, 07:40.900 --> 07:42.423 but as a tourist. 07:44.630 --> 07:47.180 Imagine Venezuela's leaders respected again across 07:47.180 --> 07:49.250 the hemisphere and the world, 07:49.250 --> 07:53.380 their voices raised in the OAS and the UN 07:53.380 --> 07:55.810 in defense of democracy and human rights, 07:55.810 --> 08:00.810 not in defense of the most abusive regimes in the world. 08:01.130 --> 08:04.092 That Venezuela is not a mirage 08:04.092 --> 08:07.720 and it will not take a miracle. 08:07.720 --> 08:11.230 That Venezuela will once again attract the doctors 08:11.230 --> 08:15.183 and engineers, teachers who have fled abroad. 08:16.460 --> 08:17.720 It'll attract them to come home 08:17.720 --> 08:19.680 and help rebuild the country. 08:19.680 --> 08:21.780 And it will attract foreigners, 08:21.780 --> 08:24.303 bringing their talents and skills to help rebuild. 08:25.320 --> 08:29.490 Not foreigners as today bringing new methods 08:29.490 --> 08:33.403 of surveillance and censorship and oppression. 08:35.200 --> 08:37.660 That future of Venezuelan society will have room 08:37.660 --> 08:40.910 for the full participation of every citizen, 08:40.910 --> 08:43.930 laborers and business owners, government workers, 08:43.930 --> 08:44.920 private sector employees-- 08:44.920 --> 08:46.671 - [Protester] It is not up to you 08:46.671 --> 08:49.404 to determine the future of Venezuela! 08:49.404 --> 08:50.374 (crowd groaning) 08:50.374 --> 08:52.508 How dare you-- - Go to North Korea! 08:52.508 --> 08:55.886 - [Protestor] Orchestrate a coup in Venezuela! 08:55.886 --> 08:58.029 - Sit down! - How dare you! 08:58.029 --> 08:59.987 (audience booing) It's wrong! 08:59.987 --> 09:04.904 (protestor's speech drowned out by booing) 09:07.481 --> 09:10.090 - Back to the rest of the day. - There's a true reflection 09:10.090 --> 09:13.304 of what is a Maduro supporter like. 09:13.304 --> 09:17.554 (audience laughing and applauding) 09:20.400 --> 09:23.130 That future Venezuelan society will have room 09:23.130 --> 09:26.120 for the full participation of every citizen, 09:26.120 --> 09:28.420 laborers, business owners, government workers, 09:28.420 --> 09:32.270 and private sector employees, Chavistas, and non-Chavistas, 09:32.270 --> 09:35.390 military officers and police, teachers, nurses, 09:35.390 --> 09:37.500 rich and poor, urban and rural. 09:37.500 --> 09:41.460 In that society, the major decisions will be made freely 09:41.460 --> 09:44.433 and democratically by elections. 09:45.850 --> 09:49.130 So what is standing between the people of Venezuela 09:49.130 --> 09:51.570 and that future? 09:51.570 --> 09:53.750 What is stopping the beginning 09:53.750 --> 09:56.423 of rebuilding and reconciliation? 09:57.970 --> 09:59.670 Some questions are hard. 09:59.670 --> 10:00.830 That one is easy. 10:00.830 --> 10:03.533 The short answer is Nicolas Maduro. 10:05.160 --> 10:08.760 Recovering from the level of theft and misrule 10:08.760 --> 10:11.030 that Venezuelans have suffered 10:11.030 --> 10:15.530 will not be an easy or quick project, 10:15.530 --> 10:18.310 but, yes, it is possible. 10:18.310 --> 10:21.100 Possible for us to visualize here, today, 10:21.100 --> 10:24.240 and possible for Venezuelans to achieve. 10:24.240 --> 10:26.360 This future will come with the full support 10:26.360 --> 10:28.310 of the international community, 10:28.310 --> 10:29.980 and as you know more than 50 countries 10:29.980 --> 10:31.820 have already announced their support 10:31.820 --> 10:34.890 for interim president Guaido and his vision 10:34.890 --> 10:38.620 of a Venezuela where liberty reigns. 10:38.620 --> 10:40.090 The U.S. is committed to working 10:40.090 --> 10:42.530 with Venezuela through the transition 10:42.530 --> 10:45.200 and to seeing prosperity return. 10:45.200 --> 10:47.640 So are Venezuela's neighbors. 10:47.640 --> 10:49.080 There's humanitarian assistance 10:49.080 --> 10:51.060 at the borders ready to flow. 10:51.060 --> 10:53.020 We were pleased to see humanitarian aid 10:53.020 --> 10:57.150 enter Venezuela last week facilitated by 10:57.150 --> 11:00.250 the International Federation of the Red Cross. 11:00.250 --> 11:02.050 We hope that aid is just the beginning 11:02.050 --> 11:05.343 of more critical support for the Venezuelan people. 11:06.230 --> 11:08.030 In the future, billions of dollars 11:08.030 --> 11:09.970 will be invested in Venezuela 11:09.970 --> 11:14.190 to rebuild the agricultural and industrial sectors. 11:14.190 --> 11:15.840 International financial institutions 11:15.840 --> 11:19.280 are making plans to lend billions more. 11:19.280 --> 11:21.530 In fact, every estimate I have seen 11:21.530 --> 11:23.763 speaks of tens of billions, 11:24.600 --> 11:27.910 which will be used to increase production and consumption, 11:27.910 --> 11:30.210 to get the economy moving again, 11:30.210 --> 11:32.163 and provide the basis for recovery. 11:33.100 --> 11:37.150 No, not overnight, but let's be clear. 11:37.150 --> 11:38.960 Humanitarian supplies, such as medicine, 11:38.960 --> 11:41.780 will start entering immediately. 11:41.780 --> 11:44.860 And skilled workers will seek to restore electricity, 11:44.860 --> 11:47.730 and clean water and oil production. 11:47.730 --> 11:49.580 It will take years of steady work 11:49.580 --> 11:52.880 and considerable investment to bring the country back 11:52.880 --> 11:56.570 to where it stood decades ago. 11:56.570 --> 11:59.343 Yet, there is strong reason for optimism. 12:00.523 --> 12:04.310 Venezuela sits on the largest proven reserves of petroleum, 12:04.310 --> 12:09.310 and it has another giant and invaluable reservoir. 12:09.550 --> 12:13.300 Millions of skilled and dedicated Venezuelans, 12:13.300 --> 12:15.950 both at home and residing overseas, 12:15.950 --> 12:19.130 who can and will dedicate themselves to that effort. 12:19.130 --> 12:19.963 They love their country, 12:19.963 --> 12:22.280 and they are ready to start rebuilding it. 12:22.280 --> 12:24.950 But that recovery can only start 12:24.950 --> 12:28.020 when there is a fully-inclusive government 12:28.020 --> 12:29.713 that represents all Venezuelans. 12:30.720 --> 12:32.700 They will not agree on everything. 12:32.700 --> 12:37.120 There will be a loud and healthy debate over all the issues 12:37.120 --> 12:40.650 through the country's democratic institutions, 12:40.650 --> 12:42.770 as there is in all democracies. 12:42.770 --> 12:47.600 But decisions will be made by the many, not just the few. 12:47.600 --> 12:48.760 And the will of the people 12:48.760 --> 12:52.260 will not be circumvented by force. 12:52.260 --> 12:53.823 To rebuild Venezuela, 12:54.780 --> 12:58.770 violent colectivos and Carnet de la Patria, 12:58.770 --> 13:03.400 and the imprisonment of political opponents must end, 13:03.400 --> 13:07.700 so that the path can be open to a new democratic future. 13:07.700 --> 13:10.030 Let me address what I see as the three elements 13:10.030 --> 13:13.500 of change in Venezuela: political participation, 13:13.500 --> 13:16.840 the role of the military, and economic progress. 13:16.840 --> 13:19.343 Now, let's speak about politics first. 13:20.530 --> 13:24.150 I used the term fully-inclusive government. 13:24.150 --> 13:25.150 What does that mean? 13:26.168 --> 13:30.240 Here I have a message to the PSUV, 13:30.240 --> 13:32.633 and the followers of the late President Chavez. 13:33.730 --> 13:38.730 You are watching the Maduro regime destroy his legacy. 13:40.770 --> 13:44.570 Okay, that's not my concern really. 13:44.570 --> 13:47.610 I met Hugo Chavez once about 15 years ago, 13:47.610 --> 13:50.170 and, you know, since I am a Republican, 13:50.170 --> 13:51.620 you can conclude correctly 13:51.620 --> 13:55.440 that I would never have voted for him. 13:55.440 --> 13:58.440 But, it should be your concern, 13:58.440 --> 14:01.030 in the PSUV and Chavistas. 14:01.030 --> 14:03.170 It should be your concern. 14:03.170 --> 14:05.930 Nicolas Maduro was selected as President of the PSUV 14:05.930 --> 14:10.930 by a very small group of self-interested individuals, 14:11.380 --> 14:13.950 who, like him, continue to have access 14:13.950 --> 14:16.110 to all the food and medicine they want. 14:16.110 --> 14:19.600 Many regime officials have sent their children 14:19.600 --> 14:21.860 and their wives and their mistresses abroad, 14:21.860 --> 14:24.490 where they all live like multimillionaires, 14:24.490 --> 14:25.773 because they are, 14:26.760 --> 14:31.040 while Venezuelans struggle to buy Harina P.A.N. and chicken 14:31.040 --> 14:33.970 to make a Reina Pepiada, 14:33.970 --> 14:36.823 the people in power are living a life of luxury. 14:38.130 --> 14:40.700 We believe the Maduro regime must come to an end 14:41.640 --> 14:45.620 for Venezuela to recover democracy and prosperity. 14:45.620 --> 14:49.510 But, like all of the country's citizens, 14:49.510 --> 14:53.183 the PSUV is entitled to a role in rebuilding Venezuela. 14:54.040 --> 14:57.607 Interim president Guaido said recently, quote, 14:57.607 --> 15:00.927 "Free elections are the mechanism that allow the people 15:00.927 --> 15:05.380 "to express and detain their longing for change." 15:05.380 --> 15:06.213 Close quote. 15:06.213 --> 15:07.046 And we agree. 15:08.500 --> 15:12.440 You in the PSUV are entitled to run in free elections 15:12.440 --> 15:14.410 and try to convince your fellow citizens 15:14.410 --> 15:16.500 of the value of your policies. 15:16.500 --> 15:19.000 As we saw in the last free elections in Venezuela, 15:19.000 --> 15:22.810 the National Assembly elections of 2015, 15:22.810 --> 15:25.400 there remains a strong base of support for your party. 15:25.400 --> 15:26.883 You won 55 seats. 15:28.340 --> 15:32.910 Take those seats, join the national debate, 15:32.910 --> 15:37.640 not only tomorrow, but right now, today. 15:37.640 --> 15:40.140 Engage with the other parties in the Parliament 15:41.070 --> 15:43.343 with the spirit of mutual respect. 15:44.410 --> 15:48.120 In a recent National Assembly session, 15:48.120 --> 15:52.280 three PSUV state legislators from Zulia conveyed 15:52.280 --> 15:55.170 how they were expelled from their party 15:55.170 --> 15:59.540 after they criticized the former Minister of Energy 15:59.540 --> 16:00.963 for the power outages. 16:01.910 --> 16:03.590 Interim president Guaido welcomed them 16:03.590 --> 16:08.060 to the National Assembly and the country listened. 16:08.060 --> 16:11.800 PSUV members, this is the time to demand 16:11.800 --> 16:15.083 a democratic process within your own party. 16:16.150 --> 16:19.640 One or two individuals should not have the power 16:19.640 --> 16:22.740 to censor members who demand basic services 16:22.740 --> 16:24.860 on behalf of their constituents. 16:24.860 --> 16:28.550 Once Venezuela is free of the Maduro regime, 16:28.550 --> 16:31.653 its Cuban enforcers, and its thugs, 16:32.580 --> 16:34.540 and censorship has ended, 16:34.540 --> 16:37.120 and political prisoners are freed, 16:37.120 --> 16:40.450 the time will have arrived to prepare for free elections. 16:40.450 --> 16:44.840 But the time to join a free debate about the future is now. 16:44.840 --> 16:47.580 And it must include young Chavistas 16:47.580 --> 16:52.580 before this regime tries to silence them, as well. 16:52.780 --> 16:56.530 If you want Chavismo to be part of your country's future 16:56.530 --> 16:58.900 and not just its past, 16:58.900 --> 17:02.030 it cannot be imposed by force. 17:02.030 --> 17:06.310 When the PSUV accepts that it must act solely 17:06.310 --> 17:08.370 as a democratic political party, 17:08.370 --> 17:10.260 and seek the votes of citizens 17:10.260 --> 17:15.040 in free elections solely through argument and debate, 17:15.040 --> 17:17.793 Venezuela will be well on the way to democracy. 17:19.090 --> 17:20.980 How will the United States react 17:20.980 --> 17:24.950 to Chavista participation in, what I call, 17:24.950 --> 17:26.940 politics that are fully inclusive? 17:26.940 --> 17:29.680 I can speak from my own experience here. 17:29.680 --> 17:33.510 I spent years in the 1980s working 17:33.510 --> 17:38.510 to prevent a violent FMLN, assisted by Cuba and Russia, 17:40.310 --> 17:42.763 violent takeover of El Salvador. 17:44.170 --> 17:47.920 But when the FMLN won free elections in 2009, 17:47.920 --> 17:52.920 and again in 2014, and in the latter election, 2014, 17:54.530 --> 17:59.343 under the leadership of a former rebel leader, 18:00.400 --> 18:05.170 the United States respected and accepted that outcome, 18:05.170 --> 18:08.320 and, indeed, continued our foreign aid program. 18:08.320 --> 18:12.560 We did not, we did not, pick El Salvador's president 18:12.560 --> 18:16.380 in those elections and, obviously, we will not pick 18:16.380 --> 18:19.450 who is elected president in Venezuela. 18:19.450 --> 18:21.690 We want to see all Venezuelans deciding the fate 18:21.690 --> 18:24.430 of their country in free elections, 18:24.430 --> 18:27.750 instead of all of the key decisions being made 18:27.750 --> 18:31.490 by someone who stole an election in 2018, 18:31.490 --> 18:34.253 and rules by brutality and exclusion. 18:35.220 --> 18:38.250 Venezuela needs a peaceful transition, 18:38.250 --> 18:40.180 negotiated among all its people, 18:40.180 --> 18:43.010 between friends and neighbors in every community. 18:43.010 --> 18:44.140 You are all in this together, 18:44.140 --> 18:47.343 and your politics must reflect that fact. 18:48.830 --> 18:50.610 Second, the military. 18:50.610 --> 18:53.560 In that future Venezuela, what is the role of the military? 18:55.420 --> 18:57.070 The armed forces would hold a place 18:57.070 --> 19:00.060 of responsibility in society. 19:00.060 --> 19:04.100 And, without being involved in politics, 19:04.100 --> 19:07.773 would represent and protect the security of the country. 19:08.990 --> 19:11.080 Venezuelans deserve to be protected 19:11.080 --> 19:14.560 by a professional military institution. 19:14.560 --> 19:18.950 And not have their leaders rely on armed gangs, 19:18.950 --> 19:23.110 or on foreign powers who send thousands of soldiers, 19:23.110 --> 19:28.110 or intelligence agents, to surveil and abuse and imprison 19:28.900 --> 19:31.250 patriotic Venezuelan military officers, 19:31.250 --> 19:33.503 and enlisted men and women. 19:34.360 --> 19:36.390 Venezuela will need a truly professional 19:36.390 --> 19:39.750 and well-trained armed force to rebuild the country 19:39.750 --> 19:41.123 and guarantee its security. 19:42.230 --> 19:45.930 Interim president Guaido has reiterated multiple times 19:45.930 --> 19:49.230 that a transition to a secure and democratic country 19:49.230 --> 19:52.220 will require the support of military officers. 19:52.220 --> 19:54.000 And that's what we believe. 19:54.000 --> 19:57.240 Venezuela's military and security officers need 19:57.240 --> 20:02.130 to be stronger, better paid and trained and armed, 20:02.130 --> 20:04.130 and ready to face the challenge 20:04.130 --> 20:08.720 of criminals who traffic in drugs and persons. 20:08.720 --> 20:09.920 And the challenge of protecting 20:09.920 --> 20:14.110 the nation's thousands of miles of land and sea borders. 20:14.110 --> 20:18.763 And protecting Venezuela from dangers, foreign and domestic. 20:21.000 --> 20:24.970 Let's be candid, the country will need to confront the deeds 20:24.970 --> 20:29.510 of some who have so badly abused their office, 20:29.510 --> 20:32.310 or their position, that there needs to be an accounting. 20:33.330 --> 20:34.770 The National Assembly is working 20:34.770 --> 20:37.630 on these issues now, and with great care. 20:37.630 --> 20:38.883 These are not new issues. 20:39.760 --> 20:43.580 Many democratic transitions have had to grapple 20:43.580 --> 20:46.840 with the issues of amnesties or protections 20:46.840 --> 20:49.220 for former officials. 20:49.220 --> 20:53.460 We saw this in Poland and elsewhere in Eastern Europe 20:53.460 --> 20:55.120 after the fall of Communism, 20:55.120 --> 20:57.083 in South Africa after apartheid, 20:58.150 --> 21:00.400 in El Salvador after the Civil War, 21:00.400 --> 21:03.870 in Chile and Argentina after military rule. 21:03.870 --> 21:07.680 Venezuelans will have to work this out. 21:07.680 --> 21:10.680 We in the United States recognize this, 21:10.680 --> 21:14.650 and as we have done in all those cases I mentioned, 21:14.650 --> 21:16.350 it is the intention of the United States 21:16.350 --> 21:20.870 to respect the agreement made among Venezuelans 21:20.870 --> 21:23.050 as part of the transition to democracy, 21:23.050 --> 21:25.863 to the extent consistent with applicable laws. 21:27.380 --> 21:31.900 Third is the question of a free and inclusive economy. 21:31.900 --> 21:35.090 Like all questions about the future of Venezuela, 21:35.090 --> 21:36.340 the structure of the economy 21:36.340 --> 21:39.880 will have to be debated by all Venezuelans, 21:39.880 --> 21:42.463 represented in the National Assembly. 21:43.320 --> 21:46.440 Decisions about the economy cannot be made by one man, 21:46.440 --> 21:50.970 or a small group, whose goal is to steal resources, 21:50.970 --> 21:53.310 reward sycophants, and above all, 21:53.310 --> 21:55.460 use the money to stay in power. 21:55.460 --> 21:57.193 They'll be hard decisions to make, 21:58.220 --> 22:03.080 and there will still be many sacrifices in the coming years. 22:03.080 --> 22:04.680 The transition will not be easy. 22:05.520 --> 22:07.970 And in some ways, let's be honest, 22:07.970 --> 22:12.260 the situation may even get worse before it improves. 22:12.260 --> 22:14.110 The Venezuelan economy has contracted 22:14.110 --> 22:17.260 by nearly 70, seven, zero, percent, 22:17.260 --> 22:20.810 because of the mismanagement and corruption 22:20.810 --> 22:22.050 of the current regime. 22:22.050 --> 22:26.320 The currency has been really reduced to worthless; 22:26.320 --> 22:30.160 an example of hyperinflation that is gonna 22:30.160 --> 22:33.560 be studied in university economic departments 22:33.560 --> 22:34.863 a century from now. 22:35.710 --> 22:39.730 The country will need everything, infrastructure, 22:39.730 --> 22:41.540 a new health system, schools, 22:41.540 --> 22:44.270 the rebuilding of the agricultural sector. 22:44.270 --> 22:46.313 The list is long and it will take time. 22:47.430 --> 22:50.680 Economic recovery cannot be achieved overnight, 22:50.680 --> 22:53.880 not even in a country with huge oil reserves. 22:53.880 --> 22:55.547 But interim president Guaido 22:55.547 --> 22:57.930 and the National Assembly are committed, 22:57.930 --> 23:00.430 as they've made clear in Plan Pais, 23:00.430 --> 23:04.240 to build an economy that works for all Venezuelans, 23:04.240 --> 23:07.520 and the international community is committed 23:07.520 --> 23:09.283 to helping that succeed. 23:10.490 --> 23:12.610 That means an economy that uses 23:12.610 --> 23:15.350 the country's natural wealth to benefit all the people, 23:15.350 --> 23:19.300 not just a few who happen to hold political power. 23:19.300 --> 23:21.200 That means an economy that truly provides 23:21.200 --> 23:24.000 for the most vulnerable members of society. 23:24.000 --> 23:27.030 It means a stable currency that allows families 23:27.030 --> 23:29.190 to plan for the future. 23:29.190 --> 23:31.140 It means an economy that is open to the world, 23:31.140 --> 23:34.710 and embraces the opportunities the world offers. 23:34.710 --> 23:37.920 It means an agricultural sector that can again provide 23:37.920 --> 23:40.200 for the basic needs of Venezuelans 23:40.200 --> 23:42.370 by allowing farmers to plant 23:42.370 --> 23:45.760 and harvest without government control, 23:45.760 --> 23:48.520 but with the government providing much 23:48.520 --> 23:52.120 of the infrastructure that facilitates production. 23:52.120 --> 23:55.350 Venezuela can be prosperous again, 23:55.350 --> 23:59.340 and can climb out of the despair into which it has fallen, 23:59.340 --> 24:00.900 when the rules are fair, 24:00.900 --> 24:03.620 the laws are just and are enforced, 24:03.620 --> 24:05.183 and treat all citizens equally, 24:06.320 --> 24:07.660 when corruption is punished, 24:07.660 --> 24:11.290 and a free press can expose corruption, 24:11.290 --> 24:13.440 when private property is protected, 24:13.440 --> 24:16.100 when labor is fairly rewarded. 24:16.100 --> 24:20.173 This isn't magic, these are the bases for economic growth. 24:21.490 --> 24:24.280 These three components of the democratic transition; 24:24.280 --> 24:26.280 an inclusive democratic government, 24:26.280 --> 24:28.210 professional security forces, 24:28.210 --> 24:30.330 and a free and inclusive economy; 24:30.330 --> 24:33.340 are all possible and are all key ingredients 24:33.340 --> 24:35.360 to rebuilding Venezuela. 24:35.360 --> 24:38.300 Interim president Guaido and the National Assembly 24:38.300 --> 24:39.690 have begun the critical work 24:39.690 --> 24:43.510 that will lead Venezuela back from ruin, 24:43.510 --> 24:45.890 to liberty and prosperity. 24:45.890 --> 24:48.490 We support his leadership fully 24:48.490 --> 24:49.840 and everyone who is committed 24:49.840 --> 24:53.030 to a democratic future must join forces 24:53.030 --> 24:57.123 to make this new Venezuela a reality as quickly as possible. 24:58.510 --> 25:00.963 I believe what Bolivar said is true, 25:01.917 --> 25:06.917 "A people that loves freedom will in the end be free." 25:07.100 --> 25:10.510 A people that loves freedom will in the end be free. 25:10.510 --> 25:13.510 The United States will not waver in its support 25:13.510 --> 25:16.640 for freedom in Venezuela. 25:16.640 --> 25:20.263 And we are certain we will see again a Venezuela 25:20.263 --> 25:23.050 that is democratic, prosperous, 25:23.050 --> 25:24.350 and reconnected to the world. 25:24.350 --> 25:28.640 We are certain the corruption and incompetence, 25:28.640 --> 25:30.630 the repression and brutality, 25:30.630 --> 25:34.810 that have marked the Maduro years will be replaced 25:34.810 --> 25:39.810 by a Venezuela that is recovering its place in its region, 25:39.940 --> 25:42.480 this hemisphere, and the world. 25:42.480 --> 25:45.620 The United States wishes to be Venezuela's partner 25:45.620 --> 25:48.910 in this great effort and we are confident 25:48.910 --> 25:53.230 that Venezuelans will, in the end, be free. 25:53.230 --> 25:54.624 Thank you very much. 25:54.624 --> 25:57.791 (audience applauding) 26:03.908 --> 26:04.741 - Yeah. 26:09.910 --> 26:12.710 Thanks, Elliott. - Thank you. 26:12.710 --> 26:14.790 - Well, thank you very much, Special Representative Abrams. 26:14.790 --> 26:16.580 I'm Jason Marczak, the director of 26:16.580 --> 26:19.180 the Adrienne Arsht Latin American Center. 26:19.180 --> 26:20.730 Special Representative, you just laid out 26:20.730 --> 26:22.960 what a different future could be for Venezuela, 26:22.960 --> 26:25.640 a future that we all hope becomes that future for Venezuela. 26:25.640 --> 26:28.650 We're now going to take this next discussion, 26:28.650 --> 26:30.860 and dig a little bit further deeper into some 26:30.860 --> 26:33.790 of your comments and your pioneering new thoughts 26:33.790 --> 26:35.570 that you just laid out and see, frankly, 26:35.570 --> 26:37.050 how can we get there? 26:37.050 --> 26:38.270 Joining on stage here 26:38.270 --> 26:39.830 with Special Representative Elliott Abrams, 26:39.830 --> 26:42.350 I'm pleased to welcome Ambassador Carlos Vecchio, 26:42.350 --> 26:46.070 the Ambassador of the interim government of Venezuela 26:46.070 --> 26:47.941 to the United States. 26:47.941 --> 26:49.220 Ambassador Vecchio, you have been in this role 26:49.220 --> 26:50.400 for three months. 26:50.400 --> 26:51.930 It's impressive how much you've achieved 26:51.930 --> 26:53.630 in just this very short period of time. 26:53.630 --> 26:54.463 And great to have you, again, 26:54.463 --> 26:56.200 on the Atlantic Council. - Thank you, Jason. 26:56.200 --> 26:58.480 - Next to Ambassador Vecchio is Jonathan Powell. 26:58.480 --> 27:00.320 Jonathan is an Associate Professor 27:00.320 --> 27:01.910 in the Political Science Department 27:01.910 --> 27:03.740 at the University of Central Florida, 27:03.740 --> 27:05.780 and also a specialist in international relations 27:05.780 --> 27:06.960 and comparative politics. 27:06.960 --> 27:09.030 Jonathan, great to have you. - I'm happy to be here. 27:09.030 --> 27:13.000 - And also joining us via video is Gabriela Ramirez. 27:13.000 --> 27:14.930 Gabriela is a former Ombudsman 27:14.930 --> 27:17.990 of the Supreme Court of Justice in Venezuela. 27:17.990 --> 27:21.380 She is joining us from Spain via video conference. 27:21.380 --> 27:22.780 Gabriela, great to have you. 27:26.280 --> 27:28.500 We'll work on her audio as we go to her questions. 27:28.500 --> 27:30.720 Given that the time is short, 27:30.720 --> 27:32.990 we're gonna be taking written questions 27:32.990 --> 27:34.860 at the conclusion of our conversation. 27:34.860 --> 27:37.410 You should have note cards on your chairs, 27:37.410 --> 27:39.290 so please pass your note cards to staff, 27:39.290 --> 27:41.993 who will be circulating to ask us those questions. 27:43.651 --> 27:46.420 We will turn first to you, Ambassador Vecchio, 27:46.420 --> 27:48.870 Special Representative Abrams just laid out 27:48.870 --> 27:51.910 three different components of a democratic transition, 27:51.910 --> 27:53.930 an inclusive democratic government, 27:53.930 --> 27:55.790 professional security forces, 27:55.790 --> 27:58.190 and also free and inclusive economy. 27:58.190 --> 28:01.570 For you, what does a fully-inclusive government mean, 28:01.570 --> 28:03.230 and what does that mean also 28:03.230 --> 28:05.570 to the interim government overall? 28:05.570 --> 28:07.570 - Well, thank you Jason for this opportunity, 28:07.570 --> 28:10.990 to the Atlantic Council, as well, for organizing. 28:10.990 --> 28:14.250 Thank you for your work and for your speech 28:14.250 --> 28:16.060 and for helping the Venezuelan people 28:16.060 --> 28:17.913 to recover our democracy. 28:18.880 --> 28:21.330 For me, an inclusive government means 28:21.330 --> 28:24.270 that we need to understand the context in where we are. 28:24.270 --> 28:28.570 We need to unify our country to have a smooth transition 28:28.570 --> 28:31.450 in Venezuela, to set a clear transitional government, 28:31.450 --> 28:33.650 and call for a free and fair election. 28:33.650 --> 28:35.360 But also we need to understand 28:35.360 --> 28:38.030 that we are facing the worst humanitarian crisis 28:38.030 --> 28:40.057 in our entire history, and for that, 28:40.057 --> 28:41.320 to overcome that crisis, 28:41.320 --> 28:44.130 we need to come together as Venezuelans. 28:44.130 --> 28:47.430 All Venezuelans are necessary to rebuild our country, 28:47.430 --> 28:49.553 and to overcome the worst humanitarian crisis 28:49.553 --> 28:53.204 that we have ever facing in the recent history. 28:53.204 --> 28:57.277 But also, it's a government that needs to understand 28:57.277 --> 29:01.789 that need to work with different political views. 29:01.789 --> 29:03.247 It has to be open for listen 29:03.247 --> 29:06.345 to different opinions and respect them. 29:06.345 --> 29:07.850 And also it's a government 29:07.850 --> 29:10.330 that has to be governed by the rule of law, 29:10.330 --> 29:11.910 of respecting also human rights 29:11.910 --> 29:13.640 and democratic principles. 29:13.640 --> 29:16.790 And also must understand the need to work together 29:16.790 --> 29:19.880 with the different public branches in Venezuela, 29:19.880 --> 29:21.470 working with the National Assembly, 29:21.470 --> 29:24.300 working with the military force, 29:24.300 --> 29:25.820 working with a judicial system, 29:25.820 --> 29:27.993 in order to rebuild Venezuela. 29:27.993 --> 29:30.193 And the most important thing, in my view, 29:31.370 --> 29:35.000 is a government that needs to resolve 29:35.000 --> 29:36.810 the humanitarian crisis, 29:36.810 --> 29:39.560 and to overcome the poverty in Venezuela. 29:39.560 --> 29:41.940 And that will be the primary focus, 29:41.940 --> 29:44.220 stop the suffering of the Venezuelans. 29:44.220 --> 29:46.130 Because the crisis is not taking consideration 29:46.130 --> 29:48.420 your political affiliation. 29:48.420 --> 29:51.464 When you have electricity problem, I mean, 29:51.464 --> 29:52.550 your outlets, electricity, they don't ask you, 29:52.550 --> 29:54.910 are you Chavista or are you from the opposition? 29:54.910 --> 29:57.750 It's affecting the entire country 29:57.750 --> 30:01.440 without taking consideration the political affiliations. 30:01.440 --> 30:04.410 So we need to understand that the new government 30:04.410 --> 30:06.663 has to resolve the humanitarian crisis, 30:06.663 --> 30:09.860 and, at the same time, start working 30:09.860 --> 30:13.610 to overcome the poverty in Venezuela. 30:13.610 --> 30:15.200 That's the way we see it. 30:15.200 --> 30:17.100 - [Jason] Yeah, Ambassador Vecchio, let me just reiterate 30:17.100 --> 30:18.680 that incredibly important point you just made, 30:18.680 --> 30:20.920 that the crisis is not based on political affiliation. 30:20.920 --> 30:22.420 This is a crisis that affects 30:22.420 --> 30:23.720 all Venezuelans-- - Exactly. 30:23.720 --> 30:25.210 - [Jason] Across the board. 30:25.210 --> 30:27.230 And, as you said, a fully-inclusive government, 30:27.230 --> 30:29.300 as Special Representative Abrams just laid out, 30:29.300 --> 30:32.230 has to include everybody across the political spectrum. 30:32.230 --> 30:34.360 - Correct. - I want to turn to you, 30:34.360 --> 30:38.760 Gabriela, you are a former Ombudsman of Venezuela. 30:38.760 --> 30:41.890 Your presence today, at least your virtual presence, 30:41.890 --> 30:44.410 symbolizes a recognition of the magnitude 30:44.410 --> 30:47.650 of the ongoing crisis and the consequences it's generated. 30:47.650 --> 30:50.020 You join us as someone who has broken, 30:50.020 --> 30:52.400 you have broken with the Maduro regime. 30:52.400 --> 30:55.100 Special Representative Abrams today laid out the role 30:55.100 --> 30:58.500 that the PSUV could have in rebuilding the country. 30:58.500 --> 31:00.210 Why did you break with the regime, 31:00.210 --> 31:03.870 and also please explain what dissident Chavismo is. 31:03.870 --> 31:05.160 Who is a part of it? 31:05.160 --> 31:06.690 What brings them together? 31:06.690 --> 31:07.523 What separates them? 31:07.523 --> 31:08.990 Please give a little bit more context 31:08.990 --> 31:11.563 of what dissident Chavismo could be. 31:16.440 --> 31:18.430 Sorry, we're not getting her audio. 31:18.430 --> 31:21.750 Let me, let me, we'll fix that. 31:21.750 --> 31:25.140 In the interim, Special Representative Abrams, 31:25.140 --> 31:26.580 I wanna turn to you. 31:26.580 --> 31:29.840 You laid out during your speech a number 31:29.840 --> 31:32.030 of different points on the potential role 31:32.030 --> 31:36.840 of dissident Chavismo and,as we're getting her audio fixed, 31:36.840 --> 31:39.530 can you please elaborate a little bit more on the role 31:39.530 --> 31:41.990 of dissident Chavistas in the reconstruction of Venezuela? 31:41.990 --> 31:43.960 How do you see them playing a role? 31:43.960 --> 31:46.990 You mentioned during your comments the importance 31:46.990 --> 31:49.050 of the PSUV taking the seats 31:49.050 --> 31:50.921 that it's won in the National Assembly. 31:50.921 --> 31:53.220 But even, further beyond that, 31:53.220 --> 31:56.040 how do you see dissident Chavismo really playing 31:56.040 --> 31:57.150 that role in the reconstruction, 31:57.150 --> 32:00.230 and how do you see it as so important in that role? 32:00.230 --> 32:04.750 - Well, I think naturally to reiterate I would follow 32:04.750 --> 32:06.200 what Ambassador Vecchio said. 32:07.142 --> 32:09.190 There's a huge effort ahead 32:09.190 --> 32:13.550 to reclaim democracy and prosperity, 32:13.550 --> 32:17.060 and one would hope that there would be a great deal 32:17.060 --> 32:21.910 of unity among Venezuelans on moving down that path. 32:21.910 --> 32:25.280 There are no special rights 32:26.390 --> 32:27.880 for any political party. 32:27.880 --> 32:29.140 I mean, that's the problem today. 32:29.140 --> 32:31.040 There are special rights for the PSUV. 32:31.940 --> 32:33.573 But in a free Venezuela, 32:34.440 --> 32:36.640 there just has to be a competition of ideas. 32:37.640 --> 32:40.460 People have to, in free elections, 32:40.460 --> 32:42.403 which will come, 32:44.400 --> 32:45.920 people just have to make their arguments 32:45.920 --> 32:47.343 to the Venezuelan people. 32:51.650 --> 32:53.470 There will be an election, 32:53.470 --> 32:55.690 and then there will be a second election, 32:55.690 --> 32:58.460 and a third election and a fourth election, 32:58.460 --> 33:01.010 so I would say, there is nothing, 33:01.010 --> 33:05.240 in that sense, special about the PSUV, 33:05.240 --> 33:07.484 or the role of the Chavistas. 33:07.484 --> 33:11.500 Their role is to act as a democratic political party, 33:11.500 --> 33:13.170 and try to win votes. 33:13.170 --> 33:16.413 And if they cannot win the votes, 33:17.510 --> 33:19.910 then they have a smaller share in power. 33:19.910 --> 33:22.020 It won't be zero, 'cause they'll have people 33:22.020 --> 33:23.660 in the National Assembly, 33:23.660 --> 33:25.903 if they will just take up their seats. 33:27.070 --> 33:29.170 But this is the whole idea, 33:29.170 --> 33:34.170 that no party gets a special advantage. 33:35.550 --> 33:37.530 They just make their arguments, 33:37.530 --> 33:40.180 and try to win the support of Venezuelans. 33:40.180 --> 33:42.380 - A follow-up question here. 33:43.810 --> 33:46.070 I asked what your message is to those in Venezuela. 33:46.070 --> 33:48.680 We have a number of cameras in the room, 33:48.680 --> 33:51.490 a number of people are also watching via live stream, 33:51.490 --> 33:53.040 a number of people who will shortly be reading 33:53.040 --> 33:56.683 about your speech if not already in the press, very shortly, 33:57.830 --> 33:58.663 and they wonder whether 33:58.663 --> 34:00.640 the U.S. will deliver on the message; 34:00.640 --> 34:02.810 the message that you just laid out, 34:02.810 --> 34:05.640 that it will support a political transition 34:05.640 --> 34:07.213 that is fully inclusive. 34:08.060 --> 34:10.010 What is your reaction to that question? 34:11.880 --> 34:13.860 - We have and we will. 34:13.860 --> 34:16.480 We have throughout Latin America. 34:16.480 --> 34:20.453 You have seen examples of parties that won an election, 34:21.420 --> 34:23.203 the FSLN at one point, 34:24.270 --> 34:26.860 at one point, in Nicaragua, 34:26.860 --> 34:28.740 before it went back to dictatorship, 34:28.740 --> 34:30.633 the FMLN in El Salvador. 34:31.720 --> 34:34.960 I think you can refer to Peronismo in Argentina. 34:34.960 --> 34:36.580 The American reaction has been to say, 34:36.580 --> 34:39.793 if you win a free election, congratulations. 34:41.570 --> 34:44.350 That's gonna be our reaction in Venezuela. 34:44.350 --> 34:49.350 We want to see a free, fair, open political contest, 34:49.860 --> 34:54.423 and whatever Venezuelans freely choose, we will respect. 34:55.290 --> 34:58.757 - [Jason] Jonathan, I wanna look a little bit more globally. 34:58.757 --> 35:00.900 You've done extensive research on conflicts 35:00.900 --> 35:04.000 in democratization processes. 35:04.000 --> 35:05.740 I'd like to ask you to provide some examples 35:05.740 --> 35:07.130 of cases around the world, 35:07.130 --> 35:09.630 where having an inclusive transition helped 35:09.630 --> 35:12.690 a country's democratization process. 35:12.690 --> 35:16.140 What have you seen so far as the value of having buy in 35:16.140 --> 35:18.730 of dissident Chavistas as part of the government, 35:18.730 --> 35:20.670 and so far as helping to ensure 35:20.670 --> 35:23.253 that that democratic transition really does happen? 35:24.380 --> 35:27.010 - Okay, so beginning with the second part, 35:27.010 --> 35:29.690 the problem with dissidents is usually they're not alone. 35:29.690 --> 35:30.840 In the case of Venezuela, 35:30.840 --> 35:32.440 where you have an increasing crisis, 35:32.440 --> 35:35.160 spiraling out of control, dissidents are going to expand, 35:35.160 --> 35:36.890 they're going to grow in importance. 35:36.890 --> 35:39.880 In the short term, this is going to be really meaningful 35:39.880 --> 35:41.870 because in terms of actually getting to something 35:41.870 --> 35:43.750 that we might call a transition, 35:43.750 --> 35:44.583 and getting to the point 35:44.583 --> 35:46.800 where we actually hold free and fair elections, 35:46.800 --> 35:48.400 dissidents can ultimately act 35:48.400 --> 35:50.910 as really important instigators to get us to that point, 35:50.910 --> 35:52.940 or they could potentially act as veto players, 35:52.940 --> 35:55.150 where they can help disrupt the process. 35:55.150 --> 35:57.360 The same goes after you get to the point 35:57.360 --> 35:59.740 when you do get to holding the free and fair election. 35:59.740 --> 36:01.720 You're going to have to have a government that is, 36:01.720 --> 36:04.820 in fact, actually a government of national unity. 36:04.820 --> 36:06.140 And in the case of Venezuela 36:06.140 --> 36:08.590 and coming out of the current political crisis, 36:08.590 --> 36:10.160 this is going to be especially important 36:10.160 --> 36:13.100 because you do have a lot of various voices 36:13.100 --> 36:16.540 that do represent substantial portions of the population. 36:16.540 --> 36:19.700 For whatever the current problems of the government, 36:19.700 --> 36:21.870 Chavez, and the Chavista movement, 36:21.870 --> 36:23.900 has been incredibly important for the country, 36:23.900 --> 36:26.600 and does represent a wide swath of the country. 36:26.600 --> 36:28.280 So it's going to be very important to continue 36:28.280 --> 36:30.240 to have these voices represented 36:30.240 --> 36:32.720 in moving towards a more free and fair process. 36:32.720 --> 36:34.580 It should also include a government that's going 36:34.580 --> 36:38.120 to be much more representative of the people as a whole. 36:38.120 --> 36:42.460 Globally, and I'd just start briefly with Latin America, 36:42.460 --> 36:44.770 because if we think about being inclusive, 36:44.770 --> 36:46.470 one of the things we wanna pay attention to 36:46.470 --> 36:49.150 is paying attention to the interests 36:49.150 --> 36:51.370 of the folks that we might be opposed to. 36:51.370 --> 36:52.970 Beginning with Latin America, 36:52.970 --> 36:55.290 in retrospect, it's kind of extraordinary 36:55.290 --> 36:58.410 the degree to which the region went 36:58.410 --> 37:01.150 from so many ensconced military dictatorships, 37:01.150 --> 37:03.230 to civilian democracies, 37:03.230 --> 37:05.700 in a relatively short period of time. 37:05.700 --> 37:07.710 And a big part of that, and it was something 37:07.710 --> 37:10.470 that's really important for the success of that, 37:10.470 --> 37:12.392 is the fact that so many folks were willing 37:12.392 --> 37:14.730 to specifically turn the other cheek 37:14.730 --> 37:17.810 and to look away from things like going out, 37:17.810 --> 37:20.300 and not just doing really drastic things 37:20.300 --> 37:21.430 like seeking reprisals, 37:21.430 --> 37:23.990 but really not actively pursuing justice 37:23.990 --> 37:25.510 against military officials 37:25.510 --> 37:28.560 that might have committed various atrocities. 37:28.560 --> 37:31.260 And instead, they focused much more on forgiveness, 37:31.260 --> 37:33.720 and moving towards and looking towards the future. 37:33.720 --> 37:35.300 And in various places around the world, 37:35.300 --> 37:37.100 this is something that we do see, 37:37.100 --> 37:40.890 be it just coming out of gridlock political situations, 37:40.890 --> 37:43.030 and even looking at governments 37:43.030 --> 37:45.570 of national unity coming out of even civil wars, 37:45.570 --> 37:48.410 where you actually see things like the incorporation 37:48.410 --> 37:50.120 of what were previously rebel groups, 37:50.120 --> 37:52.290 into the national armed forces. 37:52.290 --> 37:54.470 We see these processes succeed, 37:54.470 --> 37:56.320 and despite folks literally fighting 37:56.320 --> 37:57.510 and dying against each other 37:57.510 --> 37:59.200 and shedding each other's blood, 37:59.200 --> 38:02.100 when you do come to a peaceful resolution, 38:02.100 --> 38:03.530 and you do create a government 38:03.530 --> 38:05.650 in which you are actively representing 38:05.650 --> 38:09.850 and respecting the views of a wider swath of the population, 38:09.850 --> 38:12.700 these prospects for democratization 38:12.700 --> 38:15.590 and continued stability do improve. 38:15.590 --> 38:18.760 - So you've seen this around the world, Jonathan. 38:18.760 --> 38:19.760 What's playing out in Venezuela, 38:19.760 --> 38:22.490 the message that Special Representative Abrams had, 38:22.490 --> 38:23.900 Ambassador Vecchio's echoed, 38:23.900 --> 38:26.430 you've seen around the world that this really does result 38:26.430 --> 38:28.600 in a better end result? 38:28.600 --> 38:30.980 - Yeah, absolutely, and one of the strange 38:30.980 --> 38:33.060 and frustrating things about Venezuela is, 38:33.060 --> 38:34.980 the countries that we usually see these problems 38:34.980 --> 38:37.220 are usually a lot different than Venezuela, 38:37.220 --> 38:39.040 in the sense that they usually don't have the types 38:39.040 --> 38:41.400 of financial resources that Venezuela has, 38:41.400 --> 38:44.620 or at least should have, and even really basic things 38:44.620 --> 38:46.890 that we might think of being necessary building blocks 38:46.890 --> 38:48.110 for functional democracies, 38:48.110 --> 38:50.770 like level of education and things like that. 38:50.770 --> 38:52.720 So the types of places that I usually study, 38:52.720 --> 38:54.510 and looking at places that are coming out 38:54.510 --> 38:56.960 of dictatorship and moving towards democracy 38:56.960 --> 38:59.900 are largely places like West Africa and Burkina Faso, 38:59.900 --> 39:02.770 and places like that where you see adult literacy rates 39:02.770 --> 39:05.530 at something like 25, maybe 30%. 39:05.530 --> 39:08.040 This is obviously a far different story than Venezuela. 39:08.040 --> 39:10.160 In Venezuela, in particular, 39:10.160 --> 39:12.370 and especially given its historic legacies 39:12.370 --> 39:14.190 with democracy already, 39:14.190 --> 39:15.560 it would be a country that I would say 39:15.560 --> 39:18.540 would be well-suited to return to democracy. 39:18.540 --> 39:20.540 - [Jason] Gabriela, can you hear us now? 39:21.566 --> 39:23.480 (speaking in foreign language) 39:23.480 --> 39:24.313 Okay, oh, we're good. 39:24.313 --> 39:25.320 - [Translator] Yes, I can hear you very clearly. 39:25.320 --> 39:27.400 - Perfect, great to have you here. 39:27.400 --> 39:30.130 I want to ask my first question to you, again, 39:30.130 --> 39:32.142 which is the question of, 39:32.142 --> 39:35.820 you broke with the Maduro regime. 39:35.820 --> 39:37.780 Special Representative Abrams mentioned the role 39:37.780 --> 39:39.870 of the PSUV in rebuilding the country. 39:39.870 --> 39:41.330 Why did you break with the regime? 39:41.330 --> 39:43.380 And, also, if you could explain a little bit more about 39:43.380 --> 39:45.160 what dissident Chavismo is. 39:45.160 --> 39:46.310 Who is a part of it? 39:46.310 --> 39:47.683 What brings them together? 39:48.940 --> 39:50.977 The movement of dissident Chavismo 39:50.977 --> 39:54.400 that we're talking about here as being part 39:54.400 --> 39:57.383 of an inclusive future for Venezuela. 39:58.790 --> 40:00.885 (speaking in foreign language) 40:00.885 --> 40:02.040 - [Translator] Well, thank you very much, 40:02.040 --> 40:05.370 and thank you for bringing our-- 40:08.000 --> 40:13.000 - [Jason] Can you switch to English please? 40:13.231 --> 40:14.383 (speaking in foreign language) 40:14.383 --> 40:16.230 - [Translator] I would prefer to speak in Spanish, 40:16.230 --> 40:18.373 but you have interpretation, do you not? 40:18.373 --> 40:19.653 - [Jason] Okay, perfect. 40:19.653 --> 40:21.966 If anybody needs translation and you didn't get, 40:21.966 --> 40:22.994 and your coming into the room please, 40:22.994 --> 40:25.657 just raise your hand and translation will be brought to you. 40:26.896 --> 40:31.535 (speaking in foreign language) 40:31.535 --> 40:33.030 - [Translator] Well what I was saying is, 40:33.030 --> 40:36.023 thank you very much for the invitation to join you, 40:38.210 --> 40:42.130 and to bring in the voices of dissident Chavistas. 40:42.130 --> 40:45.740 It's very important in today's debate. 40:45.740 --> 40:48.900 We are a group of people who broke 40:48.900 --> 40:53.460 with Nicolas Maduro's regime because we believe 40:53.460 --> 40:56.180 that what he is doing is twisting 40:56.180 --> 40:58.403 the foundations of Chavismo. 40:59.420 --> 41:04.420 We want to rescue the constitution 41:04.730 --> 41:07.180 that has been supported by the Venezuelan people 41:07.180 --> 41:10.390 at different times and through different elections. 41:10.390 --> 41:14.310 And I personally broke with Maduro regime 41:14.310 --> 41:19.310 when he was talking about the Constituent Assembly 41:20.800 --> 41:25.800 looking against popular sovereignty, 41:25.800 --> 41:29.630 and depositing the power in the hands of a single person. 41:29.630 --> 41:33.420 The same way I joined the support for Chavismo, 41:33.420 --> 41:37.070 in terms of rewriting the constitution, 41:37.070 --> 41:42.070 this led me to hold senior positions in different parts 41:43.130 --> 41:45.210 of the Chavez government. 41:45.210 --> 41:46.910 It's important that you have 41:46.910 --> 41:49.490 to separate dissident Chavismos 41:49.490 --> 41:51.080 from what's happening right now. 41:51.080 --> 41:54.260 You have to see how many different sectors 41:56.220 --> 42:00.450 who, in 1998, were supporting the social program put forth 42:00.450 --> 42:03.810 by Hugo Chavez, and deepening democracy, 42:03.810 --> 42:06.200 recognizing social justice, 42:06.200 --> 42:08.540 and the broadening of human rights. 42:08.540 --> 42:12.720 The connection through Chavez's discourse, 42:12.720 --> 42:16.060 and people's disappointment in Venezuela 42:16.060 --> 42:19.010 because of the system that had existed, 42:19.010 --> 42:21.570 the state of things in Venezuela, 42:21.570 --> 42:26.240 is what allowed Chavez to take political power in Venezuela. 42:26.240 --> 42:29.090 I think that is what's most important 42:29.090 --> 42:32.960 in our discussion today, because those problems persist, 42:32.960 --> 42:36.105 and they have gotten much, much worse. 42:36.105 --> 42:40.040 There's far worse poverty than we had 20 years ago, 42:40.040 --> 42:43.083 the lack of medicines and the collapse of public services. 42:44.100 --> 42:46.200 Today, we're looking for this emotional 42:46.200 --> 42:48.280 and political connection with the people. 42:48.280 --> 42:50.920 It's even more important than ever, 42:50.920 --> 42:53.040 and goes beyond political discourse. 42:53.040 --> 42:57.123 It's also important to talk about there has to be a break. 42:58.200 --> 43:02.060 This ingrained power, and what is happening 43:02.060 --> 43:05.470 is we've become considered a conservative sect, 43:05.470 --> 43:09.130 who are defending the programs, 43:09.130 --> 43:12.130 the programs that were part of the Revolution. 43:12.130 --> 43:15.020 Right now, things are against the people, 43:15.020 --> 43:16.630 they're against democracy. 43:16.630 --> 43:19.073 Anything that's happening within the government, 43:21.240 --> 43:23.940 right now, is playing a shameful role. 43:23.940 --> 43:27.300 We have to, because now our country 43:27.300 --> 43:30.470 is like an African dictatorship, 43:30.470 --> 43:33.510 where even though we have natural resources, 43:33.510 --> 43:38.130 people are being plunged into poverty under repression. 43:38.130 --> 43:42.090 The government is denying all of the reasons, 43:42.090 --> 43:46.300 or ruling all of the reasons that brought Chavez to power. 43:46.300 --> 43:48.090 We have more hunger, 43:48.090 --> 43:51.070 we have much worse public services, 43:51.070 --> 43:54.780 and we have leaders who are enriching themselves 43:54.780 --> 43:58.790 to the detriment of the poor sectors of the population. 43:58.790 --> 44:00.650 We're very different. 44:00.650 --> 44:02.220 There are a lot of different voices 44:02.220 --> 44:04.770 because we represent different sectors 44:04.770 --> 44:07.690 and we know there's an urgent need for change. 44:07.690 --> 44:10.573 It's even more urgent than it was two decades ago. 44:11.590 --> 44:13.218 Thank you very much, Gabriela. 44:13.218 --> 44:14.502 - Carlos Vecchio, I wanna turn to you. 44:14.502 --> 44:17.940 You've been very clear that the option for negotiation 44:17.940 --> 44:19.853 with Maduro is not in the table? 44:20.860 --> 44:21.940 However, the interim government, 44:21.940 --> 44:24.860 including the interim president Juan Guaido himself, 44:24.860 --> 44:27.300 has made clear the willingness to open a door 44:27.300 --> 44:29.200 to discussion with dissident Chavismo, 44:31.500 --> 44:34.505 with people like Gabriela and others, 44:34.505 --> 44:36.570 the Chavismo that no longer supports Maduro, 44:36.570 --> 44:39.160 and other voices across the political spectrum. 44:39.160 --> 44:42.440 What is the message that you would like to send today 44:42.440 --> 44:44.680 to these stakeholders? 44:44.680 --> 44:46.340 Both from yourself as ambassador 44:46.340 --> 44:48.550 of the interim government here in Washington, 44:48.550 --> 44:50.800 and also from the interim government overall? 44:52.740 --> 44:55.560 What does this future inclusive process look like? 44:55.560 --> 44:56.470 What kind of guarantees 44:56.470 --> 44:58.490 is the interim government willing to provide? 44:58.490 --> 45:01.330 - Well, Jason, just to follow the comment 45:01.330 --> 45:03.080 that Gabriela just said. 45:03.080 --> 45:04.963 I mean, the center of the debate is about the people. 45:04.963 --> 45:05.930 It's not about me. 45:05.930 --> 45:06.763 It's not about Trump. 45:06.763 --> 45:07.786 It's not about Maduro. 45:07.786 --> 45:09.340 It's about the people of Venezuela, 45:09.340 --> 45:11.170 to stop the suffering of the Venezuelans. 45:11.170 --> 45:13.660 I mean, it's enough, 20 years has been too much. 45:13.660 --> 45:15.520 This is the right time and the moment, 45:15.520 --> 45:17.933 to change that reality, and that's the debate 45:17.933 --> 45:19.180 that we need to do. 45:19.180 --> 45:22.010 And I'm calling you, all the dissidents from the Chavismo, 45:22.010 --> 45:25.340 and all Venezuelans, to support transition in Venezuela, 45:25.340 --> 45:27.670 to help us to end the usurpation of power, 45:27.670 --> 45:29.170 to set a transitional government 45:29.170 --> 45:30.870 to call for a free and fair election. 45:30.870 --> 45:32.380 And we're open to that discussion. 45:32.380 --> 45:34.830 And just let me give you not only intentions, 45:34.830 --> 45:36.340 let me give you facts. 45:36.340 --> 45:39.613 As Elliott said at the beginning of this forum, 45:40.495 --> 45:43.095 interim president Guaido have met with some of them, 45:44.390 --> 45:48.025 with former minister of Chavez discussing this issue, 45:48.025 --> 45:49.770 that we need to change the reality of Venezuela. 45:49.770 --> 45:54.060 He have met also with unions, leaders from unions coming 45:54.060 --> 45:55.980 from the Chavismo, as well. 45:55.980 --> 45:57.700 And let me talk about this, 45:57.700 --> 46:01.120 social leaders across the country, 46:01.120 --> 46:02.880 who believed in Chavez at one time 46:02.880 --> 46:04.093 and they were betrayed, 46:05.120 --> 46:06.370 and we have said to them, 46:10.049 --> 46:12.347 you have been affected by the crisis. 46:13.350 --> 46:16.100 So, the only way to change that reality 46:16.100 --> 46:18.268 is to put at an end the usurpation of power, 46:18.268 --> 46:19.280 as Elliott said. 46:19.280 --> 46:22.247 I mean, the only obstacle for the peace and the progress 46:22.247 --> 46:23.570 of Venezuela is Maduro. 46:23.570 --> 46:25.567 So this is the right time to move forward, 46:25.567 --> 46:28.850 and to bring, again, the democratic system 46:28.850 --> 46:31.180 in order to restore the democratic court systems. 46:31.180 --> 46:33.200 It's the only way to rebuild Venezuela 46:33.200 --> 46:34.400 from the economics point of view, 46:34.400 --> 46:37.160 and to start solving the main problem 46:37.160 --> 46:38.520 that people are affected. 46:38.520 --> 46:40.370 But, let me give you another example. 46:41.850 --> 46:44.240 A year ago, we created a platform, 46:44.240 --> 46:46.200 called (speaking in foreign language) 46:46.200 --> 46:50.410 with different political partners, different NGOs, 46:50.410 --> 46:53.203 and Gabriela was part of that platform. 46:54.190 --> 46:57.030 We had an open discussion about 46:57.030 --> 47:00.000 the situation in Venezuela, because we need to put, 47:00.000 --> 47:01.840 not my personal interests, 47:01.840 --> 47:04.720 we need to put the collective interests of Venezuela. 47:04.720 --> 47:06.993 And we need to look in that way, 47:08.830 --> 47:10.670 in order to just produce the change. 47:10.670 --> 47:15.060 So we are open to that, to that debate. 47:15.060 --> 47:18.410 - Gabriela, I wanna turn back to you for another question 47:18.410 --> 47:20.780 based on what Ambassador Vecchio just said. 47:20.780 --> 47:24.830 What do you think it's gonna take to go a step further 47:24.830 --> 47:27.300 and to have this sector of the population, 47:27.300 --> 47:29.810 have dissident Chavismo, the people, 47:29.810 --> 47:33.830 as Elliott made in the beginning of his speech, 47:33.830 --> 47:36.961 the folks who are aligned, 47:36.961 --> 47:40.820 who see the legacy of Hugo Chavez being destroyed 47:41.710 --> 47:43.590 by Nicolas Maduro. 47:43.590 --> 47:45.560 What else do you think it will take to go a step further 47:45.560 --> 47:47.900 and have this sector of the population 47:47.900 --> 47:52.900 align itself with the interim government in a transition? 47:54.722 --> 47:57.480 (speaking in foreign language) 47:57.480 --> 47:59.633 - [Translator] Well, something very important here, 48:02.067 --> 48:06.230 and it means coming back into the conversation 48:06.230 --> 48:08.400 and it has to be very clear. 48:08.400 --> 48:13.400 There's an opposition discourse that might be the minority 48:13.520 --> 48:16.910 and it might not include all sectors of Chavismo, 48:16.910 --> 48:20.640 but, especially, when we talk about help, 48:20.640 --> 48:23.790 the military option is not on the table. 48:23.790 --> 48:26.640 It shouldn't be, so we have to talk about policies. 48:26.640 --> 48:29.493 These minority sectors, the opposition, 48:32.170 --> 48:34.380 talk about as caricatures. 48:34.380 --> 48:37.960 They say that we're racist, that's very classist. 48:37.960 --> 48:40.150 And that is not helpful. 48:40.150 --> 48:42.760 It helps maintain the current regime. 48:42.760 --> 48:44.060 It's very radical. 48:44.060 --> 48:49.060 It talks about some type of social prophylaxis. 48:49.180 --> 48:52.940 It's part of the official discourse 48:52.940 --> 48:54.930 and it's part of the opposition, 48:54.930 --> 48:58.640 but this radical and minority discourse 48:58.640 --> 49:02.980 is mobilizing or demobilizing an important part 49:02.980 --> 49:05.870 of the sector that would be necessary for change. 49:05.870 --> 49:08.280 So these people who may not support Maduro, 49:08.280 --> 49:12.760 they're not because they suffer from poverty, from misery. 49:12.760 --> 49:14.010 They have many needs. 49:14.010 --> 49:17.100 The many of their family members are living in exile. 49:17.100 --> 49:21.380 This is a sector, however, that has not been brought in. 49:21.380 --> 49:23.140 It hasn't been mobilized. 49:23.140 --> 49:25.270 And it might be a retaliatory speech 49:25.270 --> 49:28.453 because they oppose Chavez but, 49:30.760 --> 49:33.950 they say that since we are former officials 49:33.950 --> 49:36.240 of the Chavez government, 49:36.240 --> 49:39.480 they criticize our rules within the government. 49:39.480 --> 49:42.010 I'm not trying to contradict that, 49:42.010 --> 49:45.980 but what I'm saying that there is a large sector 49:45.980 --> 49:48.620 at the grassroots who are not mobilized. 49:48.620 --> 49:51.610 So based on what I was hearing before, 49:51.610 --> 49:56.610 the role a dissident Chavez does is to recognize 49:58.770 --> 50:03.770 that there are divisions in the post-Chavez era. 50:04.720 --> 50:06.747 This is what we call Madurismo. 50:07.970 --> 50:12.970 This means that those who are part of today's regimes 50:13.370 --> 50:15.610 and in the near future, 50:15.610 --> 50:19.070 decent people who may feel intimidated 50:19.070 --> 50:22.210 by this radical and minority discourse, 50:22.210 --> 50:27.010 people who have not taken a step to join in the fight, 50:27.010 --> 50:28.590 it's important for the transition, 50:28.590 --> 50:32.500 but it's also essential that when we are recovering 50:32.500 --> 50:35.600 what it took us so long to achieve, 50:35.600 --> 50:36.993 that is freedom, 50:38.090 --> 50:40.500 you have to look at the particular conditions 50:40.500 --> 50:45.110 of our people and changes in the last quarter. 50:45.110 --> 50:49.550 The changes in discourse have been seen 50:49.550 --> 50:50.680 in the military sector, 50:50.680 --> 50:53.830 but we're talking about the senior leaders. 50:53.830 --> 50:55.040 But that's not something 50:55.040 --> 50:58.053 that ordinary Venezuelans are part of. 50:59.640 --> 51:01.860 Most of the armed forces are made up 51:01.860 --> 51:03.673 of just regular Venezuelans. 51:06.110 --> 51:09.790 We have to reach those who are in the lower ranks 51:09.790 --> 51:12.100 who are suffering from the same problems 51:12.100 --> 51:13.340 as the rest of the people. 51:13.340 --> 51:17.050 So you have to look at soldiers as part of the people. 51:17.050 --> 51:22.050 Most of the military are not part of the senior leaders 51:23.380 --> 51:25.760 of the military, at least politically, 51:25.760 --> 51:29.000 the message is not going to them. 51:29.000 --> 51:32.380 The message has to go to the lower-ranking soldiers 51:32.380 --> 51:34.790 and appeal to political leaders 51:34.790 --> 51:38.600 who have the courage to speak out 51:38.600 --> 51:41.710 when the most repression was happening, 51:41.710 --> 51:43.120 like Rodriguez Torres. 51:43.120 --> 51:45.310 Many of them have been incarcerated 51:45.310 --> 51:46.963 or are living in exile, 51:51.150 --> 51:54.410 and who want to move toward, 51:54.410 --> 51:56.640 anyone who's calling for democratic governments, 51:56.640 --> 52:00.340 they're being repaid by being imprisoned. 52:00.340 --> 52:02.220 So we have to recognize the courage 52:02.220 --> 52:04.720 of those who have spoken out. 52:04.720 --> 52:08.680 This is something we want to communicate to the people. 52:08.680 --> 52:11.053 So in the dissident Chavismo, 52:12.400 --> 52:15.740 we have to convey that message. 52:15.740 --> 52:20.653 This is not something that we can just stop very easily. 52:22.150 --> 52:27.150 20 years ago, we were at a precipice of status quo. 52:27.620 --> 52:32.620 And, now, we think that we can serve as a bridge 52:35.810 --> 52:40.270 to some of the popular sectors that supported Chavismo, 52:40.270 --> 52:43.130 that this transition is not about retaliation. 52:43.130 --> 52:45.100 It's important to say that all sectors 52:45.100 --> 52:46.590 are going to be included 52:46.590 --> 52:50.160 and that's why we're talking about policies. 52:50.160 --> 52:52.880 We have to make sure that dissident Chavism 52:52.880 --> 52:56.690 is incorporated in a real and true way 52:56.690 --> 53:00.200 in decisions and the planning that the country 53:00.200 --> 53:02.060 is going to have to engage in. 53:02.060 --> 53:04.870 There is a social aspect to this. 53:04.870 --> 53:08.010 That is what allowed us to connect 53:08.010 --> 53:11.660 with the people back 20 years ago. 53:11.660 --> 53:13.940 It's not about the economic model. 53:13.940 --> 53:17.640 It's not that one political party has hijacked 53:17.640 --> 53:19.200 all of the state's institutions. 53:19.200 --> 53:21.530 What we have to do is guarantee 53:21.530 --> 53:24.909 social rights to the poorest and the most needy. 53:24.909 --> 53:28.390 - Growing dissident Chavismo movement represents 53:28.390 --> 53:30.140 the growing fissures in the regime, 53:31.981 --> 53:34.447 and that the suffering in Venezuela, 53:34.447 --> 53:36.520 and I wanna go back to the military, 53:36.520 --> 53:39.860 but, as you say, it's the everyday soldiers 53:39.860 --> 53:43.739 who are being affected by what is happening 53:43.739 --> 53:45.440 in Venezuela, today. 53:45.440 --> 53:46.940 I wanna go back to the military but, first, 53:46.940 --> 53:48.810 Special Representative Abrams, 53:48.810 --> 53:53.080 I wanna ask you, building on your speech, 53:53.080 --> 53:56.000 what can the U.S. do to incentivize 53:56.000 --> 54:00.040 the participation of all democratic actors across 54:00.040 --> 54:03.470 the ideological and political spectrum to play a role? 54:03.470 --> 54:07.430 We already talked about the recognition by the U.S. 54:07.430 --> 54:09.140 of whoever wins in any election 54:09.140 --> 54:10.760 and that needs to be an inclusive process. 54:10.760 --> 54:13.898 But what additional steps can be taken by the U.S. 54:13.898 --> 54:15.260 and, frankly, the international community 54:15.260 --> 54:17.810 to incentivize greater participation of all actors? 54:19.150 --> 54:21.570 - Ultimately, it's going to be their decision. 54:21.570 --> 54:24.120 I think, we in the United States 54:24.120 --> 54:26.110 and other governments, first of all, 54:26.110 --> 54:29.760 should say this publicly, that we encourage it, 54:29.760 --> 54:32.450 that we think it is part of the transition 54:32.450 --> 54:33.890 to a stable democracy. 54:33.890 --> 54:36.830 And, then, I think we should engage privately. 54:36.830 --> 54:39.720 That is we should meet with people, 54:39.720 --> 54:41.760 with Chavistas to give this message. 54:41.760 --> 54:43.490 They have a very hard task of them. 54:43.490 --> 54:44.963 Let's be honest. 54:46.660 --> 54:51.660 The PSUV needs to become a functioning democratic party. 54:51.710 --> 54:53.890 That means internal democracy. 54:53.890 --> 54:57.720 To make a real contribution to the democracy of the country, 54:57.720 --> 55:01.610 there must be internal democracy in the party, as well. 55:01.610 --> 55:02.630 It'll be easier, of course, 55:02.630 --> 55:04.100 when the president coup d'etat leaves. 55:04.100 --> 55:07.510 But, still, it's a task. 55:07.510 --> 55:09.037 And we need to encourage them to do that 55:09.037 --> 55:10.793 and encourage them to take part. 55:12.700 --> 55:15.213 I mean, you used the phrase, 55:16.760 --> 55:20.290 Professor Powell, of government of national unity. 55:20.290 --> 55:21.123 I don't know. 55:21.123 --> 55:22.920 I mean, that's a decision for Venezuelans to make. 55:22.920 --> 55:25.400 I could see, obviously, all these parties 55:25.400 --> 55:27.303 will be represented in the Parliament. 55:28.510 --> 55:31.560 As I think of Latin transitions mostly, 55:31.560 --> 55:32.760 you have a free elected. 55:32.760 --> 55:36.730 If somebody's elected president and you have a cabinet 55:36.730 --> 55:41.270 from that party that won, or the parties that won, 55:41.270 --> 55:46.247 so I think I'm not so sure about that phrase. 55:47.160 --> 55:51.010 But I think we clearly, we who are foreigners, 55:51.010 --> 55:52.980 need to say to to Venezuelans, 55:52.980 --> 55:57.270 we think this is the path to a more stable democracy 55:57.270 --> 56:00.170 and it has been the path in lots of different countries, 56:00.170 --> 56:04.663 so we just strongly encourage you to go down that path. 56:05.810 --> 56:08.040 - I want to turn to Ambassador Vecchio 56:09.057 --> 56:10.440 and then, Gabriela, build on your comments 56:10.440 --> 56:11.400 about the military. 56:11.400 --> 56:13.200 Then, turn it over to you, Jonathan, as well. 56:13.200 --> 56:17.260 But Gabriela mentioned a very important point about 56:17.260 --> 56:18.987 the broader population 56:18.987 --> 56:20.870 and the military's role moving forward, 56:20.870 --> 56:23.433 and how also the crisis affected the military. 56:24.930 --> 56:26.760 Thinking about the day after, ambassador, 56:26.760 --> 56:29.110 and it's hard to do sometimes right now, 56:29.110 --> 56:30.100 but I know that the interim government 56:30.100 --> 56:32.180 is already planning on doing that. 56:32.180 --> 56:33.680 We had an event here last month 56:33.680 --> 56:36.970 launching Plan Pais here in Washington. 56:36.970 --> 56:41.700 Where do you see the role of public sector employees, 56:41.700 --> 56:44.170 former military members, and other stakeholders 56:44.170 --> 56:47.260 that no longer agree with Maduro's policies? 56:47.260 --> 56:49.520 And, especially, what concrete steps are you taking, 56:49.520 --> 56:51.750 is the interim government taking to appeal to them? 56:51.750 --> 56:53.090 Especially, what steps are you taking 56:53.090 --> 56:56.080 to appeal to members of the military? 56:56.080 --> 56:59.581 - I agree with Gabriela when she said 56:59.581 --> 57:04.000 that we need to talk to the soldiers, to the troops. 57:04.000 --> 57:07.240 I mean, they are Venezuelans, you know? 57:07.240 --> 57:08.683 They are not aliens. 57:10.690 --> 57:11.850 They are suffering the same thing 57:11.850 --> 57:14.180 that ordinary people are suffering 57:14.180 --> 57:15.950 and we need to talk to them. 57:15.950 --> 57:19.910 And we have been so clear to the army force. 57:19.910 --> 57:23.059 They should represent all Venezuelans. 57:23.059 --> 57:24.510 And what we have been asking them 57:24.510 --> 57:28.197 is just support a peaceful transition in Venezuela 57:28.197 --> 57:32.097 and support the constitution and our people 57:32.097 --> 57:34.530 and be in the right side of history, 57:34.530 --> 57:36.503 and they know that. 57:37.870 --> 57:40.290 We will like to preserve our army force 57:41.534 --> 57:45.380 to be a professional army force, to defend our territory, 57:45.380 --> 57:47.583 to protect the Venezuelan people against 57:47.583 --> 57:50.960 the terrorist groups, such as ELN and FARC. 57:50.960 --> 57:53.800 They can be part of the reconstruction of Venezuela as well, 57:53.800 --> 57:57.920 and be part of the new army force in the 21st century. 57:57.920 --> 57:59.220 They will have that place. 58:00.250 --> 58:03.690 And as I said in the beginning, I mean, 58:03.690 --> 58:05.960 we need to have an inclusive government. 58:05.960 --> 58:07.460 That means that we need to work 58:07.460 --> 58:08.810 with different political branches, 58:08.810 --> 58:11.940 including also the army. 58:11.940 --> 58:12.930 So we need to do that. 58:12.930 --> 58:15.250 But let me add something that, in my view, 58:15.250 --> 58:18.870 is quite important, particularly talking about transition. 58:18.870 --> 58:22.080 We have the National Assembly, 58:22.080 --> 58:24.000 the only elective institution in Venezuela, 58:24.000 --> 58:26.240 democratic elective institution in Venezuela. 58:26.240 --> 58:28.870 The transition could start right away. 58:28.870 --> 58:33.090 The Chavismo won in 2015 55 seats. 58:33.090 --> 58:35.280 They can take those seats right now 58:35.280 --> 58:39.260 and we can start discussing democratically 58:39.260 --> 58:41.150 many of the things that we need to do 58:41.150 --> 58:42.727 a smooth transition in Venezuela. 58:42.727 --> 58:46.517 For example, how we can just pass laws 58:46.517 --> 58:48.991 for the economic reconstruction, 58:48.991 --> 58:51.840 how we can appoint a new electoral committee, 58:51.840 --> 58:54.460 how we can just engage an international committee 58:54.460 --> 58:57.873 in setting a timeframe for election in Venezuela. 58:59.280 --> 59:02.820 So, for me, that institution will be the key actor 59:02.820 --> 59:07.427 not only to push forward a end of the usurpation of power, 59:07.427 --> 59:09.350 but will be even more important 59:10.190 --> 59:12.440 to conduct a smooth transition in Venezuela 59:12.440 --> 59:15.860 that will allow immediately the participation 59:15.860 --> 59:19.210 of different political views in this debate. 59:19.210 --> 59:21.780 So, in my view, that will facilitate the transition, 59:21.780 --> 59:24.570 it will open the door for different views. 59:24.570 --> 59:26.403 Of course, we need to keep in mind that 59:26.403 --> 59:28.380 that discussion should be done 59:28.380 --> 59:31.680 within the democrat rules and respecting the law 59:31.680 --> 59:34.240 and, of course, setting a judicial system 59:34.240 --> 59:38.270 that will work to resolve any potential issue. 59:38.270 --> 59:39.833 And I'll just finish with this. 59:42.181 --> 59:45.600 As I said at the beginning again, as well, 59:45.600 --> 59:48.350 we need to restore the democratic court system. 59:48.350 --> 59:49.770 We could have different views, 59:49.770 --> 59:52.090 but we need to resolve it within the democratic rules. 59:52.090 --> 59:52.923 And, at the end of the day, 59:52.923 --> 59:55.290 we want to put the decision in the hand of the people 59:55.290 --> 59:57.680 through a fair and transparent election. 59:57.680 --> 59:59.739 That's what we want for Venezuela. 59:59.739 --> 01:00:01.197 - Thank you. 01:00:01.197 --> 01:00:02.110 Gabriela, I want to go back to you. 01:00:02.110 --> 01:00:03.970 We have a number of questions from the audience 01:00:03.970 --> 01:00:07.997 and you mentioned the military in your last comments. 01:00:07.997 --> 01:00:10.680 One of the questions we have from the audience is, 01:00:10.680 --> 01:00:12.420 what will it take for the military 01:00:12.420 --> 01:00:16.550 to change sides, to abandon Maduro? 01:00:16.550 --> 01:00:21.550 This is something that we've been discussing here, today. 01:00:22.970 --> 01:00:27.370 From your perspective, what do you see as those key levers, 01:00:27.370 --> 01:00:31.213 those key drivers to get the military to change sides? 01:00:35.227 --> 01:00:38.700 (speaking in foreign language) 01:00:38.700 --> 01:00:40.740 - [Translator] Well, what it would take 01:00:40.740 --> 01:00:45.320 for the armed forces to get on the people's side, 01:00:45.320 --> 01:00:48.740 those will be seen on the street, I think, 01:00:48.740 --> 01:00:53.433 if discourse continues to be inclusive. 01:00:57.230 --> 01:01:01.830 There have been spontaneous uprisings in the street thanks 01:01:01.830 --> 01:01:04.450 to the opposition leadership 01:01:04.450 --> 01:01:08.330 and we're seeing more presence of low-income groups 01:01:12.130 --> 01:01:14.820 in these demonstrations, 01:01:14.820 --> 01:01:17.163 which used to be more middle-class. 01:01:19.870 --> 01:01:22.690 So I think that needs to be strengthened 01:01:22.690 --> 01:01:26.400 to have a really organic connection with the people 01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:27.390 by the leadership. 01:01:27.390 --> 01:01:30.670 We must recall that one of the keys 01:01:30.670 --> 01:01:32.810 to Maduro staying in power 01:01:32.810 --> 01:01:37.810 is his pragmatism and utilitarianism. 01:01:37.930 --> 01:01:39.440 He uses people. 01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:44.270 He uses hunger and need to maintain 01:01:44.270 --> 01:01:47.670 their powerful role over the people. 01:01:47.670 --> 01:01:50.560 So if you can connect with the masses 01:01:50.560 --> 01:01:55.560 and get the people engaged and repair that social fabric, 01:01:57.350 --> 01:02:01.780 which has been dying because, right now, 01:02:02.910 --> 01:02:05.900 people are just focused on survival, 01:02:05.900 --> 01:02:10.077 so the current government needs to work on 01:02:12.290 --> 01:02:17.290 that one important task will be to really revive 01:02:19.330 --> 01:02:23.160 that connection and since the armed forces 01:02:23.160 --> 01:02:28.160 do overwhelming belong to those lower-income strata, 01:02:29.480 --> 01:02:33.500 I think that they could be a spontaneous contagion 01:02:33.500 --> 01:02:34.682 in the good sense. 01:02:34.682 --> 01:02:39.682 The spirit will spread from the people 01:02:39.870 --> 01:02:41.460 to the military forces. 01:02:41.460 --> 01:02:44.080 I think the conditions are already in place 01:02:46.710 --> 01:02:49.903 for a restoration. 01:02:54.197 --> 01:02:56.550 I think they're there. 01:02:56.550 --> 01:02:59.690 I think to reach to dissident Chavistas, 01:02:59.690 --> 01:03:02.170 you need to put the spotlight 01:03:02.170 --> 01:03:05.450 back on the people and their ability 01:03:05.450 --> 01:03:09.063 to freely elect their leaders, 01:03:11.900 --> 01:03:16.900 on voters, and the military as people. 01:03:17.330 --> 01:03:22.330 And you need to guarantee that social rights, 01:03:24.230 --> 01:03:29.160 the protection of social rights will be a priority, 01:03:29.160 --> 01:03:33.043 a constant priority for the transition government. 01:03:39.070 --> 01:03:42.280 Hyperinflation has been the most unjust tax 01:03:42.280 --> 01:03:44.060 on the Venezuelan people 01:03:44.060 --> 01:03:47.110 and it's a terrible human right's violation. 01:03:47.110 --> 01:03:52.110 If you can't even eat with your basic minimum wage, 01:03:52.890 --> 01:03:57.890 if you can't subsist, so the conditions are there. 01:03:57.900 --> 01:04:00.430 I think you just need to move the levers 01:04:02.840 --> 01:04:07.330 and give protagonism back to the people. 01:04:07.330 --> 01:04:09.703 Convey to the people that, 01:04:13.920 --> 01:04:15.690 as 20 years ago, 01:04:15.690 --> 01:04:20.690 they will be the protagonists in this world 01:04:22.030 --> 01:04:24.030 and they will be making decisions 01:04:24.030 --> 01:04:27.620 through their community leaders. 01:04:27.620 --> 01:04:32.210 So that spontaneity that we're seeing in the streets 01:04:32.210 --> 01:04:37.210 can lead to a repair of the social fabric 01:04:37.640 --> 01:04:40.750 and getting the poorest people activated again. 01:04:40.750 --> 01:04:44.140 - Examples of lessons learned from other regions 01:04:44.140 --> 01:04:46.560 of how Venezuela can achieve some 01:04:46.560 --> 01:04:48.543 of what Gabriela's laying out here? 01:04:49.910 --> 01:04:52.900 Specifically, what are additional steps 01:04:52.900 --> 01:04:53.770 that the interim government, 01:04:53.770 --> 01:04:55.680 from what you've seen in other examples, 01:04:55.680 --> 01:04:57.910 whether it's Africa or whether it's the Middle East, 01:04:57.910 --> 01:05:02.910 can take to try to appeal to members of the military forces? 01:05:03.240 --> 01:05:04.993 - Yeah, so as a starting point, 01:05:04.993 --> 01:05:07.117 just at the most basic level, the military, 01:05:07.117 --> 01:05:09.690 and I need to very delicate about the way that I word this. 01:05:09.690 --> 01:05:12.070 The military is itself, as an institution, 01:05:12.070 --> 01:05:14.613 a victim of recent politics. 01:05:15.870 --> 01:05:18.006 Civilians should not be... 01:05:18.006 --> 01:05:21.220 Well, one, military should not be used for inward purposes, 01:05:21.220 --> 01:05:23.990 like repressing your own people, obviously. 01:05:23.990 --> 01:05:27.300 But even getting at the actual running of the organization, 01:05:27.300 --> 01:05:29.670 they shouldn't see things like political interference 01:05:29.670 --> 01:05:32.210 in recruitment of soldiers or retention of soldiers; 01:05:32.210 --> 01:05:34.400 who stays in, who goes out, 01:05:34.400 --> 01:05:36.400 and other aspects of the way 01:05:36.400 --> 01:05:38.830 the military operates day to day. 01:05:38.830 --> 01:05:41.590 More generally, any real military really wants 01:05:41.590 --> 01:05:43.870 to be a professional armed forces. 01:05:43.870 --> 01:05:47.630 Receive training, receive the tools of the trade, et cetera. 01:05:47.630 --> 01:05:49.740 And, overseas, one of the things that you do see 01:05:49.740 --> 01:05:51.600 is that militaries, for better or worse, 01:05:51.600 --> 01:05:53.120 are always going to be very important players 01:05:53.120 --> 01:05:53.953 in the political process 01:05:53.953 --> 01:05:56.760 and in the long-term stability of countries. 01:05:56.760 --> 01:05:58.470 Often times, what you will see, 01:05:58.470 --> 01:06:01.410 and we brought up this idea of amnesty here and there. 01:06:01.410 --> 01:06:02.720 One of the things that we often see 01:06:02.720 --> 01:06:03.840 is that it's very easy, 01:06:03.840 --> 01:06:06.130 especially after a legacy of repression, 01:06:06.130 --> 01:06:09.200 to look at the military as kind of a natural enemy 01:06:09.200 --> 01:06:11.640 of the people and enemy of democracy, 01:06:11.640 --> 01:06:13.050 instead of looking at the military 01:06:13.050 --> 01:06:16.400 as an important stakeholder and, over the long term, 01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:18.730 a veto player in determining whether or not 01:06:18.730 --> 01:06:21.290 a democratic transition is going to succeed. 01:06:21.290 --> 01:06:23.640 And one of the things that you really see in recent history 01:06:23.640 --> 01:06:26.050 where you do see some countries moving away from 01:06:26.050 --> 01:06:28.440 dictatorship and towards democracy 01:06:28.440 --> 01:06:32.650 and then slipping up and falling back into authoritarianism, 01:06:32.650 --> 01:06:36.950 be it places like Egypt or Mauritania, 01:06:36.950 --> 01:06:38.920 is you might start seeing movements 01:06:38.920 --> 01:06:41.920 towards legitimate civilian governments. 01:06:41.920 --> 01:06:44.000 But, eventually, these governments sometimes 01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:46.730 may be overstepped and get a little too ambitious 01:06:46.730 --> 01:06:48.570 about rolling back some of the benefits 01:06:48.570 --> 01:06:50.750 and perks that the military does receive. 01:06:50.750 --> 01:06:52.840 Well, most of us would probably agree 01:06:52.840 --> 01:06:54.760 that a lot of these governments probably should, 01:06:54.760 --> 01:06:57.130 over the long term, be rolling back things 01:06:57.130 --> 01:06:58.750 like military expenditures. 01:06:58.750 --> 01:07:01.250 In the short term, this can be very destabilizing. 01:07:01.250 --> 01:07:02.220 And I think one of the things 01:07:02.220 --> 01:07:04.160 that's going to be very important for Venezuela, 01:07:04.160 --> 01:07:07.450 especially given the quite pronounced security concerns 01:07:07.450 --> 01:07:08.910 and challenges that they're going to have 01:07:08.910 --> 01:07:11.520 with combating things like drug trafficking, 01:07:11.520 --> 01:07:13.010 it's going to be very important 01:07:13.010 --> 01:07:15.020 for any administration moving forward 01:07:15.020 --> 01:07:17.970 to truly commit to guaranteeing to the armed forces 01:07:17.970 --> 01:07:19.720 that they are going to be invested in 01:07:19.720 --> 01:07:23.100 as a highly-professional and highly-capable organization 01:07:23.100 --> 01:07:24.730 that will be capable of providing 01:07:24.730 --> 01:07:27.450 Venezuela's security needs. - Thank you, Jonathan. 01:07:27.450 --> 01:07:30.270 I know a number of folks on the panel have to leave. 01:07:30.270 --> 01:07:31.870 I think that's an important final message. 01:07:31.870 --> 01:07:33.360 I know that, Ambassador Vecchio, 01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:35.540 that's something that the interim government 01:07:35.540 --> 01:07:38.220 has thought about quite significantly. 01:07:38.220 --> 01:07:40.820 That wat is the role of the military moving forward, 01:07:40.820 --> 01:07:42.270 the need for proper resource, 01:07:42.270 --> 01:07:45.600 and the need for a proper security situation in country 01:07:45.600 --> 01:07:47.250 so that there isn't a vacuum 01:07:48.200 --> 01:07:49.820 as that transition is happening. 01:07:49.820 --> 01:07:51.031 And this is something that the interim government 01:07:51.031 --> 01:07:52.690 has spent significant time 01:07:52.690 --> 01:07:56.060 and continues to spend significant time thinking about. 01:07:56.060 --> 01:08:00.130 I want to, with that, thank Special Representative Abrams, 01:08:00.130 --> 01:08:01.430 Ambassador Vecchio, Jonathan Powell, 01:08:01.430 --> 01:08:04.840 Gabriela Ramirez for joining us for this panel. 01:08:04.840 --> 01:08:07.300 I wanna also thank Paula Garcia, Tufro, 01:08:07.300 --> 01:08:10.520 Diego Area, Angela Chavez, Domingo Sadurni from our team. 01:08:10.520 --> 01:08:13.710 I want to ask everybody to please remain in your seats. 01:08:13.710 --> 01:08:15.190 Please remain in your seats right now 01:08:15.190 --> 01:08:16.370 because a number of the speakers 01:08:16.370 --> 01:08:19.020 have to immediately exit the room. 01:08:19.020 --> 01:08:21.980 So, with that, please join me in thanking everybody. 01:08:21.980 --> 01:08:23.590 Thank you, Fred, for starting us off 01:08:23.590 --> 01:08:24.684 for this great event today. - Thank you. 01:08:24.684 --> 01:08:26.561 (audience applauds) (soft music)