WEBVTT 00:01.069 --> 00:04.152 (gentle piano music) 00:20.134 --> 00:22.323 - Hello, I'm Bryan Schmidt with Over the Horizon. 00:22.323 --> 00:24.244 Today, we're meeting with Lieutenant General Harrigian, 00:24.244 --> 00:25.957 the Command Forces Air Component Commander. 00:25.957 --> 00:26.790 Sir, thanks for being with us today. 00:26.790 --> 00:28.407 - Hey, it's great to be here, thanks. 00:28.407 --> 00:30.691 - Sir, I'd like to start off, to start here, 00:30.691 --> 00:33.075 what efforts are currently underway to adjust 00:33.075 --> 00:36.199 the command and control of air forces in theater today? 00:36.199 --> 00:38.840 - So, over the last 18 months, 00:38.840 --> 00:42.770 we've been taking a hard look on really how we 00:42.770 --> 00:44.845 optimize the tools that our 00:44.845 --> 00:48.446 airmen are using and then take a broader look 00:48.446 --> 00:52.279 at our structure and do we have it right 00:52.279 --> 00:54.929 as we support the theater, 00:54.929 --> 00:57.754 which as you all have been watching, 00:57.754 --> 01:01.337 includes both OARI operations, Afghanistan, 01:02.488 --> 01:05.718 and then the broader CENTCOM AOR. 01:05.718 --> 01:08.468 And so as you try to optimize the 01:10.157 --> 01:13.016 people that are operating inside of all of AFCEN, 01:13.016 --> 01:15.274 not just the K-OC, I think it's important 01:15.274 --> 01:18.816 that we provide those tools that give them 01:18.816 --> 01:21.240 the opportunity to have a shared understanding 01:21.240 --> 01:25.171 of each of those locations that we're supporting, 01:25.171 --> 01:28.467 so that as we gather that data and then focus 01:28.467 --> 01:32.958 as appropriate to support the individual commanders, 01:32.958 --> 01:35.839 the data that's getting shared and then 01:35.839 --> 01:38.655 how we're communicating it across our force 01:38.655 --> 01:41.631 and then to those specific JTFs. 01:41.631 --> 01:44.751 It's really optimized to achieve the effects 01:44.751 --> 01:47.673 that the commanders are striving for. 01:47.673 --> 01:48.506 - Yes, sir. 01:48.506 --> 01:50.744 Sir, I've heard you speak on this topic a little bit before, 01:50.744 --> 01:51.900 you've mentioned there's a great deal 01:51.900 --> 01:53.488 of innovation that's required to help carry us 01:53.488 --> 01:56.213 into the future; I think that is important. 01:56.213 --> 01:57.782 What do you envision a future 01:57.782 --> 02:00.638 AOC would probably look like? 02:00.638 --> 02:05.091 - I think it's important we don't get tied up in 02:05.091 --> 02:07.190 what building and those kind of things, 02:07.190 --> 02:10.689 because frankly if we shoot for something, 02:10.689 --> 02:14.826 I would argue even 5, 10 years into the future, 02:14.826 --> 02:16.794 it's gonna be real hard to understand exactly 02:16.794 --> 02:19.632 what tools are gonna be available to us. 02:19.632 --> 02:22.478 I think we have to think about the attributes, 02:22.478 --> 02:25.411 what does that headquarters 02:25.411 --> 02:29.738 need to have beyond just the human dimension of it, 02:29.738 --> 02:33.591 but the tools and the ability to be resilient, 02:33.591 --> 02:35.761 to operate in a distributed manner 02:35.761 --> 02:38.375 so that you don't become a target, 02:38.375 --> 02:40.708 and then have the tools that 02:42.418 --> 02:45.796 allow all that data that's out there 02:45.796 --> 02:47.835 to get fused in a manner 02:47.835 --> 02:49.870 that allows us to stay ahead of the enemy. 02:49.870 --> 02:54.870 For me, this comes down to decision-making and working fast. 02:55.924 --> 02:58.669 Those of us that have been in our Air Force for a while, 02:58.669 --> 03:01.261 realize there's a lot of systems out there; some 03:01.261 --> 03:05.466 of them are very stove-piped, they don't come together. 03:05.466 --> 03:09.355 So, the integrator ends up being the commander, 03:09.355 --> 03:14.272 because I'm getting information from you, from this entity. 03:15.359 --> 03:17.990 Unfortunately, it comes to this small noggin of mine 03:17.990 --> 03:21.368 to try to sort that out and then make decisions. 03:21.368 --> 03:25.852 So, the intent would be that system pulls together 03:25.852 --> 03:28.026 this data and clearly there's still gonna be 03:28.026 --> 03:31.154 an integrating function required, 03:31.154 --> 03:35.237 but the big idea here is that the collective team 03:36.328 --> 03:41.328 has a shared understanding to facilitate those decisions. 03:41.508 --> 03:43.912 And then the other part that I've been pushing 03:43.912 --> 03:47.335 on here is we need to think beyond 03:47.335 --> 03:50.943 just airspace and cyber: I believe, 03:50.943 --> 03:53.067 whatever that op center looks like, 03:53.067 --> 03:57.861 it's got to have the capability to include the land, 03:57.861 --> 04:01.514 maritime, you can argue subsurface, 04:01.514 --> 04:04.345 even electromagnetic spectrum. 04:04.345 --> 04:06.194 Now, that'll be a heavy lift, there's a lot 04:06.194 --> 04:07.505 of work to be done there. 04:07.505 --> 04:09.801 That's why when I say the vision 04:09.801 --> 04:13.540 of what it exactly looks like is gonna be hard 04:13.540 --> 04:17.706 to specifically decide on what that will be, 04:17.706 --> 04:21.128 but I believe you can take incremental steps 04:21.128 --> 04:23.487 in route to where we wanna go. 04:23.487 --> 04:25.199 To me, I think that's the key to success. 04:25.199 --> 04:28.372 If we're gonna get there, you have to have this resilient, 04:28.372 --> 04:32.014 open architecture that, as those new capabilities come on, 04:32.014 --> 04:35.605 we can immediately plug them in and it doesn't take us 04:35.605 --> 04:37.733 three to five years to make that happen. 04:37.733 --> 04:38.924 - Yes, sir. 04:38.924 --> 04:40.693 Sir, you mentioned basically how we work 04:40.693 --> 04:44.384 with the other domains, especially Air Force is working for 04:44.384 --> 04:46.644 air, cyber, and space right now. 04:46.644 --> 04:49.033 What kind of steps can we do to improve the existing domains 04:49.033 --> 04:52.071 of land and maritime right now? 04:52.071 --> 04:53.246 - That's a pretty big challenge. 04:53.246 --> 04:55.246 I think the key here is, 04:57.164 --> 04:59.871 a little bit of what you're asking me about 04:59.871 --> 05:01.639 would be nirvana, the perfect, 05:01.639 --> 05:04.139 everybody sees the same thing, 05:05.132 --> 05:07.686 regardless of what domain you're operating in, 05:07.686 --> 05:11.076 and I think that may be a target out there, 05:11.076 --> 05:13.981 but ultimately, you have to kind of 05:13.981 --> 05:16.252 choose the fight you're in, 05:16.252 --> 05:19.381 and see how we optimize what we have to win this fight 05:19.381 --> 05:23.340 while shaping ourselves for the big end fight. 05:23.340 --> 05:26.268 And you all are very familiar with where we're going 05:26.268 --> 05:29.166 with this strategy and the powers 05:29.166 --> 05:31.295 that we would have to compete with. 05:31.295 --> 05:33.932 So I think you could take what we're doing here, 05:33.932 --> 05:37.265 particularly as you look at land, cyber, 05:39.401 --> 05:42.068 and work towards what does that, 05:43.125 --> 05:46.053 and the framework that I use is actually planning, 05:46.053 --> 05:49.971 executing, and assessing, and look across those three, 05:49.971 --> 05:52.924 and say, "All right, when we're planning, 05:52.924 --> 05:56.013 "how do we synchronize those efforts across those domains?" 05:56.013 --> 05:57.091 And it's challenging. 05:57.091 --> 05:58.107 Why? 05:58.107 --> 06:01.277 You've got classification issues, 06:01.277 --> 06:06.194 you've got stovepipe processes that have a challenging time 06:08.207 --> 06:12.618 in coming together in time and space for us 06:12.618 --> 06:15.228 to make decisions that allow us then to execute, 06:15.228 --> 06:18.091 because that execute piece, I would argue, 06:18.091 --> 06:22.451 we're very good at in terms of the plan's pulled together, 06:22.451 --> 06:26.146 you have guidance from the tent and it's communicated, 06:26.146 --> 06:28.970 our experts, whether it be in cyber, 06:28.970 --> 06:31.722 land, or in the air, they're outstanding. 06:31.722 --> 06:34.212 They're the world's best. 06:34.212 --> 06:38.212 But trying to synchronize that into an operation 06:39.524 --> 06:44.441 that allows the effects to be achieved in the manner that, 06:44.441 --> 06:45.445 from a planning perspective, 06:45.445 --> 06:49.157 understands the second and third order effects, 06:49.157 --> 06:52.876 and the execution phase is agile enough to adjust 06:52.876 --> 06:56.318 to an enemy that's gonna get a vote. 06:56.318 --> 06:58.508 And then I would argue that it comes back 06:58.508 --> 07:02.136 to that assessment piece where our assessments right now 07:02.136 --> 07:04.490 are all within their own little world. 07:04.490 --> 07:06.991 I mean we need to figure out how you pull all that together 07:06.991 --> 07:10.574 to have particularly at the JTF level, 07:10.574 --> 07:13.103 a holistic view of how that's all worked. 07:13.103 --> 07:16.878 And I think there's a lot of work to be done there 07:16.878 --> 07:19.677 from both the planning perspective and then even execution 07:19.677 --> 07:24.677 to have a common operational picture of what that looks like 07:25.628 --> 07:28.329 so that you can actually be agile enough to respond 07:28.329 --> 07:31.847 with resources and do that in distributive fashion 07:31.847 --> 07:34.417 so it's not all centralized. 07:34.417 --> 07:36.570 So those are the challenges. 07:36.570 --> 07:38.337 What that looks like, I think, 07:38.337 --> 07:43.004 is frankly to be determined and we're gonna have to take 07:44.004 --> 07:47.804 deliberate steps, not huge steps, but incremental steps 07:47.804 --> 07:49.175 that allow us to get there. 07:49.175 --> 07:50.442 - Yes, sir. 07:50.442 --> 07:52.508 Sir, on the same topic, you've talked before 07:52.508 --> 07:54.299 the importance as a commander 07:54.299 --> 07:56.404 of eyeball-to-eyeball communication. 07:56.404 --> 07:58.538 Do you see perhaps a future CFACs 07:58.538 --> 08:00.035 being co-located with JTF commanders 08:00.035 --> 08:01.563 or other component commanders? 08:01.563 --> 08:04.339 Or do you think they're better off with the AOC? 08:04.339 --> 08:06.166 - That's a good question, I saw you were 08:06.166 --> 08:08.131 gonna give me that one and I thought about it 08:08.131 --> 08:09.484 a little bit, and initially I was gonna give you 08:09.484 --> 08:12.915 the standard patch-wear answer, "it depends." 08:12.915 --> 08:17.319 But the more I thought about it, I don't think in, 08:17.319 --> 08:20.603 at least any fight that I could envision right now, 08:20.603 --> 08:22.379 that we could afford to just put 08:22.379 --> 08:24.337 all the commanders together. 08:24.337 --> 08:26.420 While that would help for 08:27.257 --> 08:31.454 that level of thinking, at the end of the day 08:31.454 --> 08:34.905 what I've learned in my time here is that 08:34.905 --> 08:37.898 you have to connected to your force. 08:37.898 --> 08:42.245 When I say that, that's your headquarters staff, 08:42.245 --> 08:45.812 and then even those that are executing for you. 08:45.812 --> 08:50.703 I can provide guidance and intent that people can read. 08:50.703 --> 08:52.272 They look at their two-pages and go, 08:52.272 --> 08:56.256 "Okay, yeah, I got it." Or you find that you really 08:56.256 --> 09:00.080 need to iterate with them and allow them to hear 09:00.080 --> 09:02.968 your intent the way you think about things 09:02.968 --> 09:05.440 and ultimately I think the key here 09:05.440 --> 09:09.448 is really that they understand that you trust them. 09:09.448 --> 09:12.884 If that trust is not there, then you're gonna have 09:12.884 --> 09:16.873 situations that arise that you probably don't achieve 09:16.873 --> 09:18.888 what you're looking to achieve. 09:18.888 --> 09:23.888 At the end of the day, this is about killing and surviving. 09:23.931 --> 09:25.273 - Yes, sir. 09:25.273 --> 09:27.190 - We can't forget that. 09:28.133 --> 09:32.448 When the rubber meets the road, we gotta make sure 09:32.448 --> 09:34.505 from the commander all the way down to the 09:34.505 --> 09:38.130 youngest airmen, they're aligned with our intent. 09:38.130 --> 09:41.250 If you're off hanging out with the rest of the commanders 09:41.250 --> 09:44.473 I don't believe you're gonna be able to do that. 09:44.473 --> 09:46.053 - Yes, sir. 09:46.053 --> 09:48.513 So on a similar topic to that then, 09:48.513 --> 09:49.925 in the air domain we're very good 09:49.925 --> 09:50.930 at the command and control. 09:50.930 --> 09:52.735 How do we better separate the strategic and 09:52.735 --> 09:54.452 operational planning, to basically link with 09:54.452 --> 09:58.679 the other domains from that kind of command and control? 09:58.679 --> 10:01.179 - As you look at the strategic 10:02.754 --> 10:06.282 level policy guidance that we get, 10:06.282 --> 10:10.282 naturally that's gonna be broad narrative format 10:12.509 --> 10:16.399 that I believe, at the operational level, 10:16.399 --> 10:20.309 you have to take what'll be the intent 10:20.309 --> 10:24.809 of the administration and frankly operationalize that. 10:26.509 --> 10:29.926 So that in the Air-Op center, we do that. 10:32.130 --> 10:34.963 Largely through building the plan, 10:35.883 --> 10:39.329 you go through the Air Operations Directive 10:39.329 --> 10:43.079 and SPINS and then ultimately create the ATO. 10:45.474 --> 10:49.489 But into the future, I would argue our construct 10:49.489 --> 10:52.714 needs to migrate to a more distributive manner 10:52.714 --> 10:56.297 and that as that planning is getting built, 10:57.668 --> 11:01.001 our echelons beneath us have the ability 11:03.356 --> 11:04.630 to already be in our head. 11:04.630 --> 11:07.492 In other words, if we get cut off and they gotta 11:07.492 --> 11:10.289 go execute, they already have to have something. 11:10.289 --> 11:13.539 Right now, they kinda wait for the ATO, 11:15.151 --> 11:18.766 then develop in their specific mission plans. 11:18.766 --> 11:21.218 But I would argue is we go foreword here 11:21.218 --> 11:24.441 as that strategic level, clarity, 11:24.441 --> 11:27.117 and guidance starts to come out. 11:27.117 --> 11:29.448 There's already tools we're using today 11:29.448 --> 11:31.843 that the wings, at their level, are starting 11:31.843 --> 11:35.412 to see the intel, starting to see 11:35.412 --> 11:39.872 the construct of the broad plan if you will. 11:39.872 --> 11:42.982 Those tools, I think that we've developed 11:42.982 --> 11:46.600 primarily in the intel arena need to 11:46.600 --> 11:49.995 start migrating into the areas of planning 11:49.995 --> 11:53.377 and then execution so that, again if we have that 11:53.377 --> 11:55.928 shared understanding across the force 11:55.928 --> 11:57.416 it's not gonna be to every cockpit 11:57.416 --> 12:02.167 or every cyber operator or guy that's working space. 12:02.167 --> 12:06.000 Those entities that have an echelon of command 12:07.692 --> 12:09.819 are tied into the planning so that they 12:09.819 --> 12:13.091 broadly understand what that strategic operational 12:13.091 --> 12:14.651 transition looks like and then what 12:14.651 --> 12:16.253 that plan looks like. 12:16.253 --> 12:17.283 We have some work to do there. 12:17.283 --> 12:18.797 I think we've made some progress on the, 12:18.797 --> 12:22.214 like I said, the intel side of the house. 12:23.395 --> 12:25.383 I would say we're still kind of stuck 12:25.383 --> 12:28.362 with the push the ATO out, and it is what it is, 12:28.362 --> 12:31.077 and there's probably ways in the future 12:31.077 --> 12:35.244 that we're able to be turning that process quicker 12:36.273 --> 12:40.103 because of the tools that are available to us now. 12:40.103 --> 12:41.312 There's some work to be done there 12:41.312 --> 12:44.224 but I would offer that given the speed 12:44.224 --> 12:45.967 that we're gonna have to fight at 12:45.967 --> 12:50.538 and the multiple domains that'll be contested, 12:50.538 --> 12:52.851 we've gotta go faster. 12:52.851 --> 12:56.891 It'll be, I think, a combination of the tools, 12:56.891 --> 13:00.461 TTP's, and frankly the people and how we share 13:00.461 --> 13:02.822 that information to allow us go faster. 13:02.822 --> 13:03.739 - Yes, sir. 13:05.141 --> 13:07.206 Sir, we certainly appreciate your inside perspective 13:07.206 --> 13:08.333 and I know your time is valuable, 13:08.333 --> 13:10.144 so I got one last question to close out, 13:10.144 --> 13:11.869 which would be, if you had unlimited resources 13:11.869 --> 13:15.496 or authority, what would you really change right now? 13:15.496 --> 13:19.141 - I chuckle at you even asking me that question. 13:19.141 --> 13:22.891 As I thought about that, I think particularly 13:23.735 --> 13:27.636 for the air component, we operate always 13:27.636 --> 13:29.886 in constraint of resources. 13:33.998 --> 13:37.088 The challenge you get into if it's completely unlimited is, 13:37.088 --> 13:39.112 particularly for my AOR you'd go, well, 13:39.112 --> 13:43.695 why not have a CFAC for Afghanistan and a CFAC for OIR? 13:46.713 --> 13:49.124 Give them their own air component. 13:49.124 --> 13:50.521 Certainly something to consider. 13:50.521 --> 13:53.370 Do we have the resources to do that? 13:53.370 --> 13:56.075 I'd argue probably not. 13:56.075 --> 13:58.353 Now if you were able to net down 13:58.353 --> 14:01.162 the size of the headquarters 14:01.162 --> 14:03.962 and provide those tools that allowed us to 14:03.962 --> 14:05.945 do all those things that were required, 14:05.945 --> 14:07.849 there might be some middle ground in there. 14:07.849 --> 14:08.845 As you're well aware, 14:08.845 --> 14:11.041 you know we've got this AIDF construct, 14:11.041 --> 14:13.921 I would tell you the challenge with that is, 14:13.921 --> 14:16.926 how does that JTF headquarters understand 14:16.926 --> 14:19.370 the difference between what the K-OC does 14:19.370 --> 14:21.017 and what that AIDF does. 14:21.017 --> 14:24.035 That's the tension you would probably 14:24.035 --> 14:29.013 be able to mitigate a bit if you were able to do that. 14:29.013 --> 14:32.124 But I just don't see that as a, 14:32.124 --> 14:37.041 an answer that's gonna present itself our way anytime soon. 14:38.074 --> 14:41.306 What was the other part, you said resources and what? 14:41.306 --> 14:42.765 - Unlimited resources or authority, 14:42.765 --> 14:45.440 probably employ air forces today's theater. 14:45.440 --> 14:49.999 - The authorities piece, again is an interesting one 14:49.999 --> 14:52.162 because as you look even back into OIR, 14:52.162 --> 14:54.829 we went through iterations where 14:55.780 --> 14:58.972 you have authorities and then you have permissions 14:58.972 --> 15:01.889 and there's always tension in that. 15:02.734 --> 15:06.775 Again, as I've sat through this job there's 15:06.775 --> 15:10.055 areas where you can try to shape those authorities 15:10.055 --> 15:13.638 to get you what you need but I'll also kinda come back 15:13.638 --> 15:16.789 to the important word of trust. 15:16.789 --> 15:20.372 Because, at the combat and commander level, 15:22.672 --> 15:25.259 they have to trust the components to do their job. 15:25.259 --> 15:26.571 If they don't trust them, what are they gonna do? 15:26.571 --> 15:29.092 They're gonna pull the authorities back up to their level. 15:29.092 --> 15:31.345 So I would argue that our job first, 15:31.345 --> 15:32.849 is to ensure that they trust us 15:32.849 --> 15:34.321 and then give us the authority to do what 15:34.321 --> 15:36.654 we need to do to execute the 15:38.621 --> 15:41.288 operations that are given to us. 15:43.015 --> 15:47.265 There's a human piece of this that we can't forget. 15:48.143 --> 15:53.012 If I had them all, I think there'd still be challenges 15:53.012 --> 15:56.255 that would be had out there, regardless of how 15:56.255 --> 15:58.220 that all played out because at the end of the day 15:58.220 --> 16:00.913 if you have all that, you better deliver. 16:00.913 --> 16:02.493 - Yes, sir. 16:02.493 --> 16:03.738 Alright, sir, we certainly appreciate 16:03.738 --> 16:04.916 the opportunity to sit down and talk to you today. 16:04.916 --> 16:05.916 Thank you for your time. 16:05.916 --> 16:07.531 - Thanks a lot. 16:07.531 --> 16:10.614 (gentle piano music)