WEBVTT 00:01.716 --> 00:04.799 (suspenseful music) 00:09.093 --> 00:10.938 - Hi I'm Major Jonathan Barber. 00:10.938 --> 00:12.589 Here at Over the Horizon, we focus on 00:12.589 --> 00:14.342 the emergency security environment. 00:14.342 --> 00:15.980 You can go to the website and read articles, 00:15.980 --> 00:17.956 listen to podcasts and watch interviews that 00:17.956 --> 00:21.513 talk about the emerging trends shaping the future. 00:21.513 --> 00:23.509 It talks about the breakneck speed of technology 00:23.509 --> 00:26.247 and how that's fundamentally changing how individuals 00:26.247 --> 00:27.925 interact, how governments interact 00:27.925 --> 00:30.175 and how countries interact. 00:30.298 --> 00:32.655 We kind of take all of this and look at it through 00:32.655 --> 00:35.654 a lens or a paradigm, a framework, to decide 00:35.654 --> 00:38.182 what kind of capabilities do we need to produce? 00:38.182 --> 00:39.838 How should we react to advisories? 00:39.838 --> 00:41.315 How should we co-opt friends? 00:41.315 --> 00:43.291 Some of these paradigms are outdated. 00:43.291 --> 00:44.971 Some of them we know they're outdated 00:44.971 --> 00:45.984 and we need to change them. 00:45.984 --> 00:47.536 Some of them we don't know they're outdated 00:47.536 --> 00:49.130 and that's dangerous. 00:49.130 --> 00:51.827 All of this put together exponentially increases 00:51.827 --> 00:54.272 the risk as we go forward to the decisions that 00:54.272 --> 00:56.251 we make and the directions that we take 00:56.251 --> 00:59.418 as a nation and as a group of nations. 00:59.508 --> 01:01.314 There's one thing, however, in all of this 01:01.314 --> 01:03.874 that doesn't change and that's human nature. 01:03.874 --> 01:06.325 We know that we all have a mind, a will and a motion 01:06.325 --> 01:08.467 and we've seen through history that humans have 01:08.467 --> 01:10.305 a great capacity for evil and they have 01:10.305 --> 01:12.252 a great capacity for good. 01:12.252 --> 01:14.784 To harness that good and to bring it out 01:14.784 --> 01:17.756 for humans to meet the improbable or 01:17.756 --> 01:20.721 the impossible and to over come it for good, 01:20.721 --> 01:23.164 takes leadership, takes teamwork, takes character 01:23.164 --> 01:25.683 and it takes the right value based system that you 01:25.683 --> 01:27.266 ground all that on. 01:27.460 --> 01:31.627 If you listen to General Kwast's video in his interview, 01:32.012 --> 01:34.492 he talks about how there's still heroes among us 01:34.492 --> 01:36.453 and there's still a great need for heroes. 01:36.453 --> 01:38.658 They're often not people who stand out 01:38.658 --> 01:40.871 as much as the great leaders and the great teammates 01:40.871 --> 01:43.151 that help do all this and make it happen. 01:43.151 --> 01:45.179 One of those heroes is with us here today. 01:45.179 --> 01:46.968 His name is Gene Kranz. 01:46.968 --> 01:49.354 He was a fighter pilot back in the F86 days. 01:49.354 --> 01:51.236 A test pilot, and then he worked for NASA 01:51.236 --> 01:52.837 as a mission commander. 01:52.837 --> 01:56.498 Throughout the Apollo program, he was a mission commander. 01:56.498 --> 01:59.365 First for Apollo 1 where three of our astronauts 01:59.365 --> 02:01.203 and three of his friends burned to death 02:01.203 --> 02:04.431 on the launchpad in an operational failure. 02:04.431 --> 02:06.637 He talks to us about the lessons learned from that 02:06.637 --> 02:08.462 and then ultimately he was the mission commander 02:08.462 --> 02:12.629 for Apollo 11 where mankind in probably its greatest feat, 02:13.306 --> 02:16.357 put a man on the moon and returned him safely to the earth. 02:16.357 --> 02:18.469 Furthermore, it was Apollo 13. 02:18.469 --> 02:20.491 He was the mission commander, you've seen in the movie. 02:20.491 --> 02:22.570 He was the guy with the vest. 02:22.570 --> 02:25.995 The leader of that whole team to take three astronauts 02:25.995 --> 02:29.472 in a stricken spacecraft, abandoned in outer space, 02:29.472 --> 02:31.402 with pretty much all odds against them 02:31.402 --> 02:34.231 and safely and successfully returned them to the earth. 02:34.231 --> 02:37.879 Gene talks to us about what it took to accomplish this 02:37.879 --> 02:40.615 and what it takes to take a team, put it together 02:40.615 --> 02:42.955 to face the impossible and to overcome it. 02:42.955 --> 02:44.622 I hope you enjoy it. 02:46.604 --> 02:50.687 - When we meet in an hour of change and challenge 02:50.811 --> 02:53.228 in a decade of hope and fear, 02:53.583 --> 02:56.910 in an age of both knowledge and ignorance. 02:56.910 --> 02:59.522 The greater our knowledge increases, 02:59.522 --> 03:02.355 the greater our ignorance unfolds. 03:02.949 --> 03:05.449 No man can fully grasp how far 03:06.386 --> 03:08.553 and how fast we have come. 03:09.495 --> 03:11.495 But condense if you will 03:11.951 --> 03:15.451 the 50,000 years of man's recorded history 03:17.313 --> 03:20.658 in a time span of about a half a century. 03:20.658 --> 03:24.064 Stated in these terms we know very little 03:24.064 --> 03:26.064 about the first 40 years 03:26.093 --> 03:28.176 except at the end of them 03:28.465 --> 03:31.711 advanced man had learned to use the skins of animals 03:31.711 --> 03:32.878 to cover them. 03:33.343 --> 03:37.093 Then about 10 years ago, under this standard, 03:37.213 --> 03:40.524 man emerged from his caves to construct other kinds 03:40.524 --> 03:41.441 of shelter. 03:42.509 --> 03:45.842 Only five years ago man learned to write 03:46.470 --> 03:48.720 and use a cart with wheels. 03:49.205 --> 03:52.788 Christianity began less than two years ago. 03:53.087 --> 03:55.837 The printing press came this year 03:56.330 --> 03:59.080 and then less than two months ago 03:59.291 --> 04:03.291 during this whole 50 year span of human history, 04:03.409 --> 04:07.409 the steam engine provided a new source of power. 04:07.696 --> 04:10.685 Newton explored the meaning of gravity, 04:10.685 --> 04:14.102 last month electric lights and telephones 04:14.567 --> 04:18.484 and automobiles and airplanes became available. 04:18.485 --> 04:21.818 Only last week did we develop Penicillin 04:22.470 --> 04:25.220 and television and nuclear power. 04:25.536 --> 04:27.786 This is a breathtaking pace 04:28.095 --> 04:30.345 and such a pace cannot help 04:30.483 --> 04:33.650 but create new ills as it dispels old. 04:35.611 --> 04:39.278 So it is not surprising that some would have 04:39.310 --> 04:42.251 us stay where we are a little longer 04:42.251 --> 04:45.668 to rest, to wait, if this capsule history 04:46.084 --> 04:48.789 of our progress teaches us anything 04:48.789 --> 04:51.139 it is that man and his quest for knowledge 04:51.139 --> 04:55.306 and progress is determined and cannot be deterred. 04:58.728 --> 05:02.811 That we shall send to the moon 240,000 miles away 05:04.254 --> 05:07.421 a giant rocket more than 300 feet tall 05:10.006 --> 05:11.756 on an untried mission 05:12.577 --> 05:14.910 to an unknown celestial body 05:15.015 --> 05:17.848 and then return it safely to earth 05:19.716 --> 05:22.049 but why, some say, the moon? 05:22.573 --> 05:24.906 Why choose this as our goal? 05:25.423 --> 05:29.590 And they may well ask why climb the highest mountain? 05:29.925 --> 05:32.758 Why 35 years ago fly the Atlantic? 05:34.001 --> 05:36.334 We choose to go to the moon. 05:36.717 --> 05:38.651 We choose to go to the moon 05:38.651 --> 05:41.401 (dramatic music) 05:44.819 --> 05:47.448 we choose to go to the moon in this decade 05:47.448 --> 05:50.927 and do the other things not because they are easy 05:50.927 --> 05:53.034 but because they are hard. 05:53.034 --> 05:54.439 - [Voiceover] The Eagle has landed. 05:54.439 --> 05:56.439 - [John Kennedy] Because that goal 05:56.439 --> 05:59.650 will serve to organize and measure the best 05:59.650 --> 06:01.696 of our energies and skills. 06:01.696 --> 06:04.452 Because that challenge is one that we are willing 06:04.452 --> 06:08.035 to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone 06:08.359 --> 06:12.526 and therefore as we set sail, we ask God's blessing 06:13.394 --> 06:15.573 on the most hazardous and dangerous 06:15.573 --> 06:19.740 and greatest adventure on which man has ever embarked. 06:20.573 --> 06:23.573 (suspenseful music) 06:26.546 --> 06:29.778 - So Mr. Kranz, where were you when you saw 06:29.778 --> 06:33.026 that speech and what went through your mind? 06:33.026 --> 06:36.443 - The impact was almost immediate because 06:37.719 --> 06:39.552 one month prior to the speech, we had blown up 06:39.552 --> 06:41.552 our second Atlas rocket. 06:41.988 --> 06:44.757 We launched Alan Shepard two weeks earlier 06:44.757 --> 06:47.637 and so we had a total of 20 minutes man spaceful 06:47.637 --> 06:49.837 experience, we had never been to orbit 06:49.837 --> 06:52.035 and we were challenged by President Kennedy 06:52.035 --> 06:53.535 to go to the moon. 06:54.629 --> 06:57.102 For the first few days it was just, this guy 06:57.102 --> 07:00.171 just doesn't understand, but then I think it came, 07:00.171 --> 07:03.100 not only to myself, but to the entire team at 07:03.100 --> 07:06.045 Space Task Group, that my God, this guy trusts us. 07:06.045 --> 07:08.962 Look at what he is asking us to do. 07:09.646 --> 07:11.534 We're going to go to the moon 07:11.534 --> 07:13.833 but we gotta learn and we gotta master 07:13.833 --> 07:15.632 all aspects of space flight. 07:15.632 --> 07:19.776 We gotta do it within the next 8 1/2 years. 07:19.776 --> 07:22.609 So the challenge was very dramatic 07:23.632 --> 07:26.382 but it was the stimulus we needed 07:28.561 --> 07:30.895 because we had been very unsuccessful 07:30.895 --> 07:35.062 in 1960 or roughly 30 to 40% of our missions failed 07:35.622 --> 07:38.539 and they failed very spectacularly. 07:38.591 --> 07:40.979 So we were just in the process of getting on track 07:40.979 --> 07:43.604 with Alan Shepard and we were celebrating Alan 07:43.604 --> 07:47.253 and then we get this mission to go to the moon. 07:47.253 --> 07:49.251 We choose to go to the moon, we choose to go to the moon 07:49.251 --> 07:51.435 in this decade and do the other things 07:51.435 --> 07:54.292 not because they're easy, but because they are hard 07:54.292 --> 07:56.822 and those last words, I think, pretty much stated 07:56.822 --> 07:59.296 the challenge we were faced with. 07:59.296 --> 08:01.973 - Now here at Over the Horizons we really try 08:01.973 --> 08:04.544 to focus on the next decade and the problems 08:04.544 --> 08:06.256 of the emerging security environment 08:06.256 --> 08:09.165 and how do we provide security for the American people? 08:09.165 --> 08:11.648 A lot of the challenges there can sometimes 08:11.648 --> 08:13.175 seem insurmountable. 08:13.175 --> 08:15.415 There's a lot of complexity, it's downright scary 08:15.415 --> 08:17.157 sometimes when you look at these. 08:17.157 --> 08:19.157 Not so unlike the 1960s. 08:19.735 --> 08:22.470 So you were faced with a seemingly impossible task 08:22.470 --> 08:24.774 at the same time we had social unrest. 08:24.774 --> 08:27.408 We had Vietnam starting and that going on. 08:27.408 --> 08:31.032 So you have some individuals flying in Vietnam. 08:31.032 --> 08:32.877 Some individuals over there in the mud, 08:32.877 --> 08:35.710 some as POWs for up to eight years 08:36.863 --> 08:38.378 and then you had some of those same people 08:38.378 --> 08:40.808 branching off into NASA to create a team 08:40.808 --> 08:43.407 to face that insurmountable task. 08:43.407 --> 08:45.143 Could you tell us what did you guys do 08:45.143 --> 08:47.976 to forge a team to try to do this? 08:48.453 --> 08:50.454 To take the kind of risks necessary 08:50.454 --> 08:53.585 and to come together and overcome these challenges. 08:53.585 --> 08:56.016 - The most important aspect we had, 08:56.016 --> 08:58.374 we're in a significantly different environment 08:58.374 --> 08:59.874 than we are today. 09:00.615 --> 09:04.318 The majority of members of the US Congress basically 09:04.318 --> 09:07.146 were warriors that finished with World War II 09:07.146 --> 09:07.979 and Korea. 09:08.563 --> 09:10.677 The media, we didn't have FOX or CNN or 09:10.677 --> 09:12.983 any of those instant news networks 09:12.983 --> 09:15.892 so we had time to really pull our thoughts together 09:15.892 --> 09:19.892 and tell the story and the media, in particular, 09:19.910 --> 09:22.660 was very forceful but very honest 09:23.780 --> 09:27.363 and the entire space program, which was one 09:28.154 --> 09:30.087 of the greatest challenge, was basically totally 09:30.087 --> 09:31.670 open to the public. 09:32.004 --> 09:34.718 And this is one thing that we had to get used to. 09:34.718 --> 09:37.506 In mission control I could look over my shoulder 09:37.506 --> 09:39.239 and I could see the news commentators 09:39.239 --> 09:41.739 from radio, TV and newspapers. 09:42.597 --> 09:44.793 We'd have a press conferences after each one 09:44.793 --> 09:45.909 of the missions. 09:45.909 --> 09:49.826 So we were now communicating what we were doing 09:50.303 --> 09:53.211 to the public, what we were doing and why. 09:53.211 --> 09:55.214 And that was one of the unifying factors 09:55.214 --> 09:57.957 is that we recognized that we were part 09:57.957 --> 10:00.040 of a much larger mission. 10:01.372 --> 10:03.382 The cold war was very real to me, 10:03.382 --> 10:06.494 the cold war was real to many of my compatriots. 10:06.494 --> 10:09.244 Others that came in from college, 10:09.546 --> 10:11.210 they're looking at this as the greatest challenge 10:11.210 --> 10:13.543 since canned beer basically. 10:13.935 --> 10:16.106 The president wanted to go to the moon 10:16.106 --> 10:17.830 and we were going to do it. 10:17.830 --> 10:20.580 So we had a culture of challenge. 10:24.104 --> 10:27.687 We had the culture that led us to establish 10:27.783 --> 10:30.042 the motto that we used in mission control 10:30.042 --> 10:32.948 which is achievement through excellence 10:32.948 --> 10:35.448 and we established the four standards: 10:35.448 --> 10:38.722 discipline, morale, toughness and competence. 10:38.722 --> 10:42.170 Or the qualities that as individuals would allow 10:42.170 --> 10:44.294 us to come together as a team. 10:44.294 --> 10:47.911 Now one of the greatest aspects of the team building 10:47.911 --> 10:50.080 was in our mission preparation work. 10:50.080 --> 10:52.672 We spent roughly about a third of our time 10:52.672 --> 10:55.409 in preparation for each one of the space missions 10:55.409 --> 10:57.357 developing our overall risk strategy. 10:57.357 --> 10:59.605 We call it the mission rules 10:59.605 --> 11:02.313 where we would take and decompose every one of the 11:02.313 --> 11:04.679 space craft's systems, what could happen in that thing 11:04.679 --> 11:06.951 for every phase of the mission. 11:06.951 --> 11:08.416 This would basically emerge from 11:08.416 --> 11:09.533 the lower level. 11:09.533 --> 11:11.600 We'd give them the overall strategy 11:11.600 --> 11:14.370 relative to how far we wanted to press, 11:14.370 --> 11:16.296 how we wanted to use the redundancy 11:16.296 --> 11:18.992 but then they would start giving us the piece parts 11:18.992 --> 11:22.252 and this debate between the flight directors 11:22.252 --> 11:25.379 and the team members really allowed us to 11:25.379 --> 11:28.462 come to a very complete understanding 11:29.256 --> 11:33.089 of the issues that we face, the risks and also 11:33.104 --> 11:36.784 the benefits as we step forward into the unknown. 11:36.784 --> 11:40.951 The mission roles, we then continued the communications 11:42.929 --> 11:46.270 with the astronauts, the crews that we're flying. 11:46.270 --> 11:48.234 So by the time I got ready to fly, 11:48.234 --> 11:50.421 basically I knew how my controllers thought, 11:50.421 --> 11:53.452 they knew how I thought, we could communicate this 11:53.452 --> 11:55.839 effectively to the crew so we didn't have much time 11:55.839 --> 11:56.672 to react. 11:58.065 --> 12:01.548 We knew that this particular direction that we 12:01.548 --> 12:04.642 were going had been very closely vetted 12:04.642 --> 12:06.572 and basically that was the best decision we 12:06.572 --> 12:08.692 could make given the few seconds to the minutes 12:08.692 --> 12:09.973 we had to work on her. 12:09.973 --> 12:11.600 If we had a longer period of time, 12:11.600 --> 12:14.213 we knew again the bottom line for each one 12:14.213 --> 12:16.880 of the controllers and the crew. 12:16.944 --> 12:18.411 So the mission rules, I think, were one of the 12:18.411 --> 12:19.823 unifying processes. 12:19.823 --> 12:23.988 I assumed I was the branch chief and division chief 12:23.988 --> 12:27.773 in flight control and I had the responsibility 12:27.773 --> 12:29.754 for all the controllers that would be faced 12:29.754 --> 12:32.754 with the program so establishing the 12:32.806 --> 12:36.223 standardization for our training process, 12:36.437 --> 12:38.040 I couldn't get it from a contractor 12:38.040 --> 12:39.791 so I decided to do it myself. 12:39.791 --> 12:43.624 I worked in aircraft flight test for two years 12:43.869 --> 12:45.643 and when I want to board an aircraft 12:45.643 --> 12:47.605 and we're flying an aircraft, basically I knew 12:47.605 --> 12:49.696 everything that was in that bomb bay. 12:49.696 --> 12:51.507 We were basically developing the capabilities 12:51.507 --> 12:54.849 to allow the B52 to penetrate Soviet airspace. 12:54.849 --> 12:56.949 What took the same approach in working with 12:56.949 --> 13:01.116 the members of my team, I wanted absolute correct, 13:03.234 --> 13:06.203 concise, crisp knowledge of every one of the 13:06.203 --> 13:07.981 space craft systems and everything that we 13:07.981 --> 13:10.226 intended to do and I wanted that communicated 13:10.226 --> 13:11.893 throughout the team. 13:11.990 --> 13:13.819 And as a result of the working level 13:13.819 --> 13:15.701 and preparation for a mission, we started coming 13:15.701 --> 13:17.284 together as a team. 13:17.946 --> 13:20.136 The training team we had, basically, was again 13:20.136 --> 13:23.636 a calvary of mission controllers whose job 13:24.605 --> 13:27.581 was to defeat the flight control team. 13:27.581 --> 13:31.748 And so it was this basic antagonism that we needed 13:32.118 --> 13:35.285 to drive us, achieve the highest level 13:36.603 --> 13:38.953 of performance that was humanly possible 13:38.953 --> 13:41.404 and we had an instructional team that was driving us 13:41.404 --> 13:42.571 to that point. 13:43.119 --> 13:46.124 It was amazing the scenarios they would develop 13:46.124 --> 13:48.164 because we would come together individually, 13:48.164 --> 13:49.967 flight controller or flight director, 13:49.967 --> 13:52.404 but also had to bring the astronauts in. 13:52.404 --> 13:55.461 So it was a question by the time we got ready to fly, 13:55.461 --> 13:59.628 we were capable of making 100% correct short-term, 14:02.853 --> 14:07.020 crisp decisions that basically acknowledged the risk 14:07.248 --> 14:10.463 we had, we also acknowledge the gain from each one 14:10.463 --> 14:13.290 of those steps we would take so it was a continual 14:13.290 --> 14:16.707 process of translating risks versus gain. 14:16.939 --> 14:21.046 For instance during Apollo 13, the real challenge was 14:21.046 --> 14:24.224 I had the opportunity to do a direct abort, 14:24.224 --> 14:26.778 come back into earth's atmosphere and be back home 14:26.778 --> 14:28.778 within a day and a half. 14:29.004 --> 14:31.600 But to do that, I'd go from a very risky plateau 14:31.600 --> 14:34.904 where I was embedded in a serious problem 14:34.904 --> 14:38.353 and I would have to move into perform a maneuver 14:38.353 --> 14:39.976 that if I didn't do this perfectly, 14:39.976 --> 14:42.375 there was a good chance that I'd impact the moon. 14:42.375 --> 14:43.985 So it was a question of making the decision 14:43.985 --> 14:48.152 to buy time and the trust I had in my lunar module team 14:48.853 --> 14:51.917 that I said I know these guys, I know the space craft, 14:51.917 --> 14:54.219 I'd flown it four times previously, 14:54.219 --> 14:56.878 we will find a way to bring this crew home 14:56.878 --> 15:00.116 and that was basically the thought process, 15:00.116 --> 15:01.679 not only permeated my team, it was every team 15:01.679 --> 15:03.714 that worked in mission control. 15:03.714 --> 15:05.494 One of the great aspects of it 15:05.494 --> 15:09.661 our bosses came to us and said how can we help you? 15:10.844 --> 15:13.110 They let us carry the ball, they knew we were the best 15:13.110 --> 15:16.362 qualified to do that thing and they were on the job. 15:16.362 --> 15:20.362 I mean figuring out some way to allow us to have 15:20.375 --> 15:21.375 the freedom. 15:22.159 --> 15:23.746 They'd cover the media for us, they'd cover 15:23.746 --> 15:25.495 the headquarters, people up in Washington. 15:25.495 --> 15:28.085 They were our blocking backs that allowed us 15:28.085 --> 15:30.168 to carry the mission off. 15:30.228 --> 15:33.989 - Sounds like you have an organization with a lot of trust 15:33.989 --> 15:36.368 which enables great communication amongst all 15:36.368 --> 15:38.955 the diverse perspectives which give you a solution 15:38.955 --> 15:41.933 and also a capacity to handle the unknown 15:41.933 --> 15:45.187 or emergencies or rapid decision making. 15:45.187 --> 15:47.045 What are some of the things, as a leader, 15:47.045 --> 15:48.845 as a mission controller, that you helped enable 15:48.845 --> 15:50.632 that kind of an organization? 15:50.632 --> 15:53.473 - Well I believe teamwork starts at the very top. 15:53.473 --> 15:55.473 You need a known leader. 15:57.325 --> 16:00.492 You have to carry a reputation for it. 16:01.719 --> 16:04.969 Your reputation basically is your entry 16:05.406 --> 16:08.906 into team building and once you carry that 16:09.512 --> 16:13.308 reputation into the team and can establish the trust, 16:13.308 --> 16:16.571 then you can work together to develop a set of values 16:16.571 --> 16:20.738 that then you can apply across the entire membership 16:21.273 --> 16:22.773 base in your team. 16:23.030 --> 16:27.197 So it's got leadership, trust, values and teamwork. 16:27.353 --> 16:29.705 And once you get to that final stage, 16:29.705 --> 16:31.927 you can literally do anything. 16:31.927 --> 16:32.866 And this is true. 16:32.866 --> 16:35.366 You mentioned Vietnam earlier. 16:35.503 --> 16:38.718 I had military personnel in the early years 16:38.718 --> 16:41.593 detailed from the MOL program, the orbiting laboratory 16:41.593 --> 16:44.808 program, all the way through the Gemini program 16:44.808 --> 16:48.134 and as we moved into Apollo, basically I had 16:48.134 --> 16:51.093 another cadre that we are preparing actually for 16:51.093 --> 16:53.939 developing a team for the Air Force 16:53.939 --> 16:57.772 to actually carry mission operations in space. 16:58.073 --> 17:01.118 And many of them were aviators, a good portion of them, 17:01.118 --> 17:03.630 as the war heated up over there. 17:03.630 --> 17:05.975 They basically were recalled and basically moved 17:05.975 --> 17:07.725 to active duty again. 17:07.795 --> 17:10.612 We has a very close relationship to the people 17:10.612 --> 17:12.435 who had been working with us that were now 17:12.435 --> 17:15.768 fighting the battles overseas which is a 17:17.705 --> 17:19.422 really, I think it was a difficult time for many of us 17:19.422 --> 17:22.496 because we knew what they were facing over there. 17:22.496 --> 17:25.312 We had our job and we were both fighting a war. 17:25.312 --> 17:26.880 We were fighting for the war in space 17:26.880 --> 17:29.874 and they were fighting over in Vietnam. 17:29.874 --> 17:32.880 - Now when you were talking about leadership 17:32.880 --> 17:34.987 and it starts there, and then you get down to values, 17:34.987 --> 17:38.411 America's been incredibly blessed in that we're 17:38.411 --> 17:41.399 very materially wealthy, we've been wealthy in experience, 17:41.399 --> 17:45.076 wealthy in knowledge, our society, but we don't talk 17:45.076 --> 17:47.260 as much it seems today about being wealthy 17:47.260 --> 17:48.845 in character, wealthy in values. 17:48.845 --> 17:51.040 Something we all know is important though. 17:51.040 --> 17:52.656 What are some of those values that you, 17:52.656 --> 17:54.552 as a leader or that you as a team, 17:54.552 --> 17:56.387 that you're trying to embed to make sure 17:56.387 --> 17:58.420 those are there to enable everything else. 17:58.420 --> 18:02.170 - I believe the singular event that I believe 18:04.432 --> 18:08.515 moved the teams in mission control from damn good 18:08.601 --> 18:12.768 to excellence came about as a result of the Apollo 1 fire. 18:14.171 --> 18:16.595 I had worked in flight test, several of the flight 18:16.595 --> 18:18.981 directors that I had had been military aviators. 18:18.981 --> 18:21.136 I had been a military aviator. 18:21.136 --> 18:23.223 But many of the young people that we had 18:23.223 --> 18:25.157 had never gone through that kind of a trauma, 18:25.157 --> 18:28.445 to lose a crew and listen to our crew die 18:28.445 --> 18:30.862 and hear their final seconds. 18:31.037 --> 18:35.204 And I called my team, I had roughly about 300 people 18:36.877 --> 18:39.438 at that time, a division together, 18:39.438 --> 18:42.462 and basically had talked about the nature 18:42.462 --> 18:44.234 of flight test, the nature of risk 18:44.234 --> 18:46.984 and what it would take to succeed 18:47.410 --> 18:50.410 and identified the day of this fire, 18:52.924 --> 18:53.928 none of us... 18:53.928 --> 18:56.414 We could have called off that test, 18:56.414 --> 18:58.947 the people at the Cape could have called it off, 18:58.947 --> 19:00.587 the crew could have called it off. 19:00.587 --> 19:03.605 No one assumed the responsibility to take the action 19:03.605 --> 19:07.207 to say this is not the day we should press on 19:07.207 --> 19:08.395 with this test. 19:08.395 --> 19:09.728 We're not ready. 19:10.169 --> 19:13.109 And wrote two words, put two words in the vocabulary, 19:13.109 --> 19:14.022 tough and competent. 19:14.022 --> 19:16.847 Tough meaning we always assume responsibility 19:16.847 --> 19:18.868 for whatever actions we take. 19:18.868 --> 19:21.266 Whether we take them or whether we avoid taking them 19:21.266 --> 19:24.092 and in the case of the Apollo 1 fire, 19:24.092 --> 19:25.876 we could have shut down that countdown, 19:25.876 --> 19:26.849 and we didn't. 19:26.849 --> 19:27.682 Competent. 19:27.857 --> 19:31.046 We assumed that operations are 100% oxygen environment 19:31.046 --> 19:31.879 is safe. 19:31.879 --> 19:32.780 That is not true. 19:32.780 --> 19:33.613 Okay? 19:34.062 --> 19:37.199 We had stopped learning, we had stopped understanding 19:37.199 --> 19:38.941 the nature of this environment. 19:38.941 --> 19:42.706 From now on, the teams in mission control be perfect 19:42.706 --> 19:45.147 and I told my people to write those two words, 19:45.147 --> 19:47.285 tough and competent, on their blackboard 19:47.285 --> 19:50.427 and they would not be erased until we had completed 19:50.427 --> 19:52.010 the Apollo program. 19:52.428 --> 19:54.941 I think there are certain events that provide 19:54.941 --> 19:57.265 the opportunity in my office. 19:57.265 --> 19:59.481 You talked about risk earlier. 19:59.481 --> 20:02.486 I had basically the pictures of the missions 20:02.486 --> 20:04.903 where we weren't good enough. 20:05.533 --> 20:07.914 I had the Apollo 9 where basically we 20:07.914 --> 20:11.173 darn near lost Gene Cernan during an EVA. 20:11.173 --> 20:13.404 I had the pictures, the early Atlas explosions 20:13.404 --> 20:14.404 that we had. 20:14.947 --> 20:18.142 I had problems associating with the Apollo 13 spacecraft 20:18.142 --> 20:20.169 so basically I looked at these and there was 20:20.169 --> 20:22.690 a constant reminder that our business 20:22.690 --> 20:26.107 is managing risk and doing it to the best 20:26.504 --> 20:28.504 possible fashion we can. 20:30.374 --> 20:32.375 We wrote a set of standards that we call 20:32.375 --> 20:34.341 the Foundations of Mission Control. 20:34.341 --> 20:36.010 It talks about discipline, morale, toughness, 20:36.010 --> 20:38.333 competence, commitment, teamwork. 20:38.333 --> 20:40.412 But it had one statement in there that was very 20:40.412 --> 20:42.429 applicable to the young people we had. 20:42.429 --> 20:45.660 New people coming into the organization 20:45.660 --> 20:47.895 and it said to always be aware that suddenly 20:47.895 --> 20:50.681 and unexpectedly you may find yourselves in a role 20:50.681 --> 20:54.229 where your performance has ultimate consequences. 20:54.229 --> 20:56.414 And this was, I think, very important for the new 20:56.414 --> 20:59.018 people coming in because I thought well 20:59.018 --> 21:02.082 somebody above me is going to make that decision 21:02.082 --> 21:03.421 but that isn't the way it is. 21:03.421 --> 21:07.004 It's I wanted you, the new employee we got, 21:07.253 --> 21:10.227 to really accept this responsibility from the day 21:10.227 --> 21:14.394 you start training until the day you're fully operational. 21:15.227 --> 21:17.981 So the Foundations of Mission Control is a series 21:17.981 --> 21:21.821 of statements that we carried all the way through 21:21.821 --> 21:25.028 the program and it lasted for almost 50 years. 21:25.028 --> 21:26.965 And finally after the Columbia accident, 21:26.965 --> 21:29.616 we added one more element to that foundation, 21:29.616 --> 21:31.616 that's called vigilance. 21:31.733 --> 21:33.753 Because basically we should have been on top of 21:33.753 --> 21:36.836 the problems that we had on Columbia, 21:36.980 --> 21:40.354 the accident where we had that debris hit. 21:40.354 --> 21:42.055 Much earlier, and got on top of it and maybe 21:42.055 --> 21:44.368 taken some different direction. 21:44.368 --> 21:46.567 - One thing we talk about in the military 21:46.567 --> 21:48.520 quite a bit, our senior leaders talk about, 21:48.520 --> 21:50.485 is the ability to take risk. 21:50.485 --> 21:54.555 So it's easy to become a risk-averse organization. 21:54.555 --> 21:56.831 It's easy for NASA to become a very risk-averse 21:56.831 --> 21:57.914 organization. 21:58.180 --> 22:00.583 You guys were allowed to take a lot of risk. 22:00.583 --> 22:01.469 You were allowed to fail. 22:01.469 --> 22:03.272 We talk about being allowed to fail. 22:03.272 --> 22:07.439 How do you turn that failure into success later on 22:08.033 --> 22:11.192 and then what does it mean to be allowed to fail? 22:11.192 --> 22:12.560 How do you think the senior leaders 22:12.560 --> 22:15.727 connect with the operators to do that? 22:16.596 --> 22:19.430 - First of all, you have to accept the fact 22:19.430 --> 22:22.242 that risk is the price of progress. 22:22.242 --> 22:24.074 I don't care whether you're trying to make money 22:24.074 --> 22:25.564 in the stock money or you're trying to put 22:25.564 --> 22:26.588 a man in space. 22:26.588 --> 22:29.841 It has an element of risk and if you want to move forward 22:29.841 --> 22:33.425 you have to accept that and the key thing is 22:33.425 --> 22:37.008 is to accept the responsibility personally. 22:39.973 --> 22:42.558 That I am going to sign up for this and 22:42.558 --> 22:46.141 I am going to communicate what I am willing 22:46.231 --> 22:48.686 to do to my people and get them to come in 22:48.686 --> 22:49.936 and share this. 22:50.168 --> 22:53.298 The management of risk, I look at in today's world, 22:53.298 --> 22:56.807 is a team process because as fast as we're moving 22:56.807 --> 22:59.214 with the technology we've got, with all the 22:59.214 --> 23:02.310 very rapid decisions, very few people are capable 23:02.310 --> 23:06.477 of making the 100% correct decision all the time, 23:06.517 --> 23:08.902 so it's really a question of embedding 23:08.902 --> 23:12.153 that responsibility within the members of your team 23:12.153 --> 23:14.737 and mission control basically, I had a team in there 23:14.737 --> 23:17.721 and my principle job, my greatest lesson that 23:17.721 --> 23:20.150 I had learned through the training process 23:20.150 --> 23:22.567 is to become a good listener. 23:22.948 --> 23:25.732 I would get ahead of my team, I would make decisions 23:25.732 --> 23:29.899 that I should have had them make and that is demeaning, 23:30.372 --> 23:33.311 it defeats the purpose of building a team. 23:33.311 --> 23:35.668 So in training, the instructors we had 23:35.668 --> 23:38.835 singled me out and taught me some very 23:40.365 --> 23:41.615 rugged lessons. 23:43.835 --> 23:46.668 I'm a Catholic in mission control, 23:48.373 --> 23:50.953 our debriefings, I always start off at the very top level 23:50.953 --> 23:52.572 where you have to explain what you did, 23:52.572 --> 23:54.683 why you did it and identify where you were 23:54.683 --> 23:56.683 deficient in doing that. 23:57.568 --> 23:59.376 That is a good element of the team building 23:59.376 --> 24:01.677 because if the team sees you owning up 24:01.677 --> 24:05.161 to your own deficiencies, they will open up 24:05.161 --> 24:07.661 and start discussing them also 24:07.883 --> 24:10.862 and as a result other people say, hey, I had the 24:10.862 --> 24:11.810 same problem. 24:11.810 --> 24:14.617 I can come in, let's start working together. 24:14.617 --> 24:18.599 When I can see he's overloaded, I'm going to jump in 24:18.599 --> 24:20.270 and give him a bit of a hand. 24:20.270 --> 24:23.568 So I think that the process of training and 24:23.568 --> 24:26.887 debriefing missions, assuming the personal responsibilities 24:26.887 --> 24:31.054 go with the risk taking, I think are very important 24:31.091 --> 24:35.258 in being able to succeed in a high risk environment. 24:36.828 --> 24:39.648 We were fortunate because had a very clear 24:39.648 --> 24:41.287 mandate in mission control. 24:41.287 --> 24:44.596 The flight director's job, no ambiguity to take 24:44.596 --> 24:47.028 any actions necessary for who's safety in 24:47.028 --> 24:48.361 mission success. 24:48.617 --> 24:50.978 We knew as flight directors, that there was 24:50.978 --> 24:52.311 no one above us. 24:52.338 --> 24:53.171 Okay? 24:53.210 --> 24:55.618 That was our job and we had been given the job 24:55.618 --> 24:58.618 and it would be supported by our top 24:58.643 --> 25:01.425 level management and I believe this was true 25:01.425 --> 25:02.606 as it went down in the ranks. 25:02.606 --> 25:04.980 Each one of my systems controllers on the console 25:04.980 --> 25:08.309 had the responsibility for giving me 100% 25:08.309 --> 25:11.582 correct, definitive answer to whatever problems 25:11.582 --> 25:15.091 we were faced in there, addressing the known risks 25:15.091 --> 25:18.174 of that path that he would recommend. 25:19.347 --> 25:21.663 The training process was very rugged, 25:21.663 --> 25:25.099 very realistic and by the time we got ready to fly, 25:25.099 --> 25:26.877 we knew each other personally. 25:26.877 --> 25:28.408 We were a relatively small team. 25:28.408 --> 25:30.236 We were like one of the ones where you look 25:30.236 --> 25:32.382 for the special operators. 25:32.382 --> 25:35.243 Basically we had that kind of relationship in there. 25:35.243 --> 25:37.657 I had a mission where one of my controllers 25:37.657 --> 25:39.721 was involved in an automobile accident. 25:39.721 --> 25:42.588 I had a flight surgeon who basically 25:42.588 --> 25:44.634 was Canadian and basically he had taken care 25:44.634 --> 25:47.300 of Canadian hockey players after the game 25:47.300 --> 25:50.138 so I sent him out and he jumped in there. 25:50.138 --> 25:53.471 But the team relationship was really the 25:54.604 --> 25:57.099 ultimate key to our success combined with 25:57.099 --> 25:59.682 the ability that we were given. 26:00.789 --> 26:02.692 The challenge, the responsibilities we were 26:02.692 --> 26:03.910 given by our management. 26:03.910 --> 26:08.077 Seldom did we ever get overruled by our leadership. 26:08.957 --> 26:10.730 One of the other things that was interesting 26:10.730 --> 26:12.770 in mission control was the flight directors 26:12.770 --> 26:16.103 always came from the ranks of the teams. 26:16.317 --> 26:18.692 For over 50 years, every flight controller 26:18.692 --> 26:22.109 was selected from membership in the team. 26:23.025 --> 26:24.533 You do this because you want an individual 26:24.533 --> 26:26.752 with a good decision track record. 26:26.752 --> 26:28.713 You want an individual capable of coping 26:28.713 --> 26:29.760 with the stress. 26:29.760 --> 26:30.978 You want an individual who can build a team. 26:30.978 --> 26:32.319 You want an individual who's a good listener. 26:32.319 --> 26:35.908 You want an articulator because when times get tough, 26:35.908 --> 26:38.911 you know, when we went down to the moon, 26:38.911 --> 26:41.028 I had the responsibility for that landing 26:41.028 --> 26:42.825 and my final words to the team as we 26:42.825 --> 26:46.992 had acquisition spacecraft, then we came into this room 26:47.800 --> 26:50.636 as a team and we will leave as a team. 26:50.636 --> 26:54.003 I will stand behind every decision you will make. 26:54.003 --> 26:56.546 And that was a very difficult period because 26:56.546 --> 26:58.707 one of my controllers was faced with a series 26:58.707 --> 27:00.504 of computer program alarms that were totally 27:00.504 --> 27:04.108 unexpected and he had to make the calls to say 27:04.108 --> 27:06.025 where I go to continue. 27:06.039 --> 27:09.382 And he made them right on track and it was 27:09.382 --> 27:13.549 recognizing the significance, the importance of the work 27:15.804 --> 27:17.406 that he was doing, but in particular his role 27:17.406 --> 27:21.001 in this decision process and accepting the risk 27:21.001 --> 27:22.834 to make that decision. 27:23.250 --> 27:26.947 It was, I think, an incredible time in the life 27:26.947 --> 27:30.603 of many of the controllers to experience this. 27:30.603 --> 27:32.972 The space program, none of the missions were 27:32.972 --> 27:35.724 ever easy and probably one of the most 27:35.724 --> 27:38.932 important missions we ever faced was Apollo 13, 27:38.932 --> 27:40.590 we were getting ready to go down to the moon 27:40.590 --> 27:42.349 and we're in our final pass around the front 27:42.349 --> 27:44.637 side of the moon and one of my controllers sees 27:44.637 --> 27:47.446 he has a board indication on his console. 27:47.446 --> 27:49.371 That shouldn't be there if the engine had been armed 27:49.371 --> 27:51.564 that would have been a bad day. 27:51.564 --> 27:55.224 Checked with the back room, it's a valid calorimetry bit, 27:55.224 --> 27:57.738 goes to the flight director and say flight, 27:57.738 --> 27:59.720 will you have the astronaut hit the abort switch 27:59.720 --> 28:01.387 with the flashlight? 28:01.815 --> 28:04.732 And the board indication went away. 28:04.975 --> 28:07.720 And we now had two hours, one more opportunity 28:07.720 --> 28:10.715 to go down to the moon and he led the development 28:10.715 --> 28:14.272 of a software patch to bypass the abort switch 28:14.272 --> 28:17.689 during engine start and then re-enable it 28:18.478 --> 28:20.296 once the engine was started and the thing was 28:20.296 --> 28:22.637 our management, our leadership, let us take 28:22.637 --> 28:24.304 that kind of a risk. 28:25.247 --> 28:28.414 The business of risk has to be shared. 28:29.914 --> 28:31.296 There's no one individual that has to be 28:31.296 --> 28:34.129 accepted as a community, as a team 28:34.961 --> 28:38.205 and leadership, top level leaders eventually 28:38.205 --> 28:40.636 I left the flight directors console, 28:40.636 --> 28:43.039 I became the flight operation director. 28:43.039 --> 28:44.797 Basically I accepted the risk that they were 28:44.797 --> 28:47.285 going to accept the risk so I would support them 28:47.285 --> 28:49.452 because they were my team. 28:50.541 --> 28:53.708 - So you've given these great ideas of 28:53.990 --> 28:55.241 bringing a team together. 28:55.241 --> 28:57.757 What are some of the biggest enemies of that? 28:57.757 --> 28:59.740 What are the things that tears the team apart? 28:59.740 --> 29:02.972 - I think the greatest enemy is what they call ego. 29:02.972 --> 29:05.218 Many of us came in from aircraft flight test 29:05.218 --> 29:08.208 and basically we had to learn to check our ego 29:08.208 --> 29:11.066 at the door every day when we came to work. 29:11.066 --> 29:13.399 That was one of the aspects. 29:13.711 --> 29:15.943 The other thing was recognition that basically 29:15.943 --> 29:19.443 you are only a small part of this venture, 29:21.275 --> 29:23.376 like going to the moon or whatever job that 29:23.376 --> 29:25.126 you're given in life. 29:25.973 --> 29:28.537 I think it's really accepting the fact that this, 29:28.537 --> 29:31.870 in today's world, is a team related job. 29:32.974 --> 29:34.923 It's a team decision because things are moving fast. 29:34.923 --> 29:39.090 I think the other one is not doing enough homework. 29:39.338 --> 29:42.921 I used to spend a good portion of every day 29:44.913 --> 29:48.996 coming home from work and really preparing myself 29:49.250 --> 29:50.893 for the next day's job. 29:50.893 --> 29:54.210 It was basically a self-recognition of my own 29:54.210 --> 29:55.293 deficiencies. 29:55.396 --> 29:58.673 Like I say, mine was one of being ahead of my team, 29:58.673 --> 30:01.923 not training them to make the decisions 30:02.441 --> 30:06.274 and then getting to the point where I was able 30:07.454 --> 30:10.954 to visualize actually what the crew's role 30:12.500 --> 30:15.668 in this thing was, how they fit into this thing 30:15.668 --> 30:19.585 and basically make a decision that looked at it 30:20.776 --> 30:21.765 as a total team. 30:21.765 --> 30:24.474 If I move in this direction, is the crew capable 30:24.474 --> 30:26.627 of implementing this thing? 30:26.627 --> 30:27.858 Are they going to have any questions? 30:27.858 --> 30:31.118 How do I make sure that in the few seconds 30:31.118 --> 30:33.359 that we got to talk, that they are going 30:33.359 --> 30:36.026 to execute what our best call is 30:36.911 --> 30:39.138 and this was true during powered flight. 30:39.138 --> 30:41.170 We had roughly around 20 seconds 30:41.170 --> 30:42.829 and basically as a trained team 30:42.829 --> 30:46.383 we could make 100% correct decision in 20 seconds. 30:46.383 --> 30:49.147 That's a lifetime in mission control. 30:49.147 --> 30:52.897 It's a lifetime in many professional aspects. 30:53.948 --> 30:56.998 Those people operate as special operators 30:56.998 --> 30:59.165 or air combat controllers. 30:59.550 --> 31:02.550 20 seconds for a well prepared team, 31:02.589 --> 31:05.089 you can get an awful lot done. 31:05.271 --> 31:08.128 - What could you tell us about, as we do go forward, 31:08.128 --> 31:10.229 and there's a lot of changes that are going to 31:10.229 --> 31:11.968 happen to the world over the next 10 years. 31:11.968 --> 31:13.229 There's a lot of changes that are going 31:13.229 --> 31:15.445 to happen in space over the next 10 to 20 years. 31:15.445 --> 31:17.389 From a commercial point of view and from 31:17.389 --> 31:19.441 a military point of view, where do you see 31:19.441 --> 31:21.485 the way forward is for us? 31:21.485 --> 31:23.965 - First of all, I'm very bullish in space. 31:23.965 --> 31:27.465 I believe that to a great extent the books 31:27.710 --> 31:30.908 have been written on how to accomplish various things 31:30.908 --> 31:33.186 in space, the technology is there, 31:33.186 --> 31:35.047 we got generations of young people capable 31:35.047 --> 31:38.196 of stepping up and accepting and being successful 31:38.196 --> 31:40.635 and living in a high risk environment. 31:40.635 --> 31:42.382 The major challenge that we need is 31:42.382 --> 31:44.099 to get the kind of leadership component that 31:44.099 --> 31:46.414 is going to allow us to do this. 31:46.414 --> 31:48.519 I believe with with the changed administration 31:48.519 --> 31:51.212 and I know some of the people up in Washington 31:51.212 --> 31:53.357 that they're now looking back at what I consider 31:53.357 --> 31:56.450 the next step from a standpoint of exploration, 31:56.450 --> 31:58.315 let's go back to the moon. 31:58.315 --> 31:59.997 And I believe a lot of people have been 31:59.997 --> 32:02.703 talking Mars, Mars, Mars but basically that's far out 32:02.703 --> 32:05.691 and it's very easy to say yes we support Mars 32:05.691 --> 32:09.054 and it becomes nothing but a PowerPoint presentation. 32:09.054 --> 32:10.145 You don't have to commit money to it, 32:10.145 --> 32:13.039 you can just study, study, study, study, study. 32:13.039 --> 32:14.539 Where the moon, you can set an objective 32:14.539 --> 32:17.578 to be there in five years, six years. 32:17.578 --> 32:19.123 And I think you could do it. 32:19.123 --> 32:22.723 I think the great difficulty that both the commercial 32:22.723 --> 32:26.056 and the NASA military space operators is 32:26.533 --> 32:27.455 to build the team. 32:27.455 --> 32:29.476 It's easier to build the hardware 32:29.476 --> 32:32.863 than it is to build the team that is capable 32:32.863 --> 32:35.918 of properly exercising that hardware. 32:35.918 --> 32:37.799 But I think team building is the greatest challenge 32:37.799 --> 32:40.660 that we face looking towards the future. 32:40.660 --> 32:42.767 Once you get that team ready, what you need 32:42.767 --> 32:45.147 is a person who is capable of articulating 32:45.147 --> 32:48.240 the program and selling it to the public. 32:48.240 --> 32:50.932 I believe, as we go further in exploration, 32:50.932 --> 32:53.069 like the International Space Station right now, 32:53.069 --> 32:55.460 is going to be an international project. 32:55.460 --> 32:57.289 I believe that it's, to a great extent, going to 32:57.289 --> 32:59.520 be still focused by the United States because we're 32:59.520 --> 33:01.994 the ones that have the technology, the economic, 33:01.994 --> 33:05.304 and the leadership base to allow that to happen. 33:05.304 --> 33:08.465 The commercial entities, I'm really amazed 33:08.465 --> 33:11.185 at how successful that they have been. 33:11.185 --> 33:13.596 When I started off in the space program, 33:13.596 --> 33:15.770 the EVA was incredibly difficult. 33:15.770 --> 33:18.764 The second EVA with Gene Cernan, we almost lost him. 33:18.764 --> 33:21.430 But now you can see the crewmen outside the spacecraft 33:21.430 --> 33:23.498 with the robotics working cooperative. 33:23.498 --> 33:26.608 Assembling a space system that had never been 33:26.608 --> 33:30.005 physically mated on earth gives you opportunities 33:30.005 --> 33:31.146 when you look towards the future. 33:31.146 --> 33:32.812 How do I want to go to the moon? 33:32.812 --> 33:36.124 Well maybe I can assemble the systems to go to the moon 33:36.124 --> 33:37.791 or to Mars in space. 33:38.183 --> 33:40.186 We've got automated docking. 33:40.186 --> 33:42.603 The technology is incredible. 33:42.669 --> 33:45.594 I was in mission control just watching the 33:45.594 --> 33:48.677 International Space Station operation 33:49.537 --> 33:51.511 and I'm dazzled at their ability 33:51.511 --> 33:54.844 to do things that we could only dream of 33:54.899 --> 33:56.232 decades earlier. 33:57.646 --> 34:01.229 This is the future and it is important that 34:02.562 --> 34:05.877 we recognize that we have to keep moving 34:05.877 --> 34:09.516 forward, we have to take the risks to be bold, 34:09.516 --> 34:12.152 take big steps and I believe exploration is one 34:12.152 --> 34:16.319 of those steps that is necessary because as a nation, 34:16.363 --> 34:18.936 risk is the price of progress but also difficult 34:18.936 --> 34:21.946 missions force the emergence of new, cutting edge 34:21.946 --> 34:24.843 technology and I believe that as a nation, 34:24.843 --> 34:26.693 we're going to be able to provide for the 34:26.693 --> 34:29.443 economic foundation of our nation 34:31.115 --> 34:35.032 through high technology that is not easily replicated. 34:35.032 --> 34:37.220 Basically I believe that space has many reasons, 34:37.220 --> 34:39.178 we got to inspire the young people to sign up 34:39.178 --> 34:42.303 for science, technology, engineering and math. 34:42.303 --> 34:44.489 So there's all kinds of reasons to go into space 34:44.489 --> 34:48.656 but I believe that exploration is part of human nature. 34:49.495 --> 34:51.408 We want to challenge boundaries. 34:51.408 --> 34:52.624 We want to challenge ourselves. 34:52.624 --> 34:55.295 We want to challenge our organization 34:55.295 --> 34:57.117 and I believe we are capable of doing that 34:57.117 --> 35:00.538 and I'm looking forward to the coming years. 35:00.538 --> 35:03.966 When I finished, I was flight director for the final launch 35:03.966 --> 35:06.506 off the surface of the moon and I believed 35:06.506 --> 35:09.429 in my lifetime I would see Americans back on 35:09.429 --> 35:10.484 the moon again. 35:10.484 --> 35:13.132 I won't see it, I'm too old right now 35:13.132 --> 35:16.465 but I can only pray now that my children 35:16.945 --> 35:18.612 and their children's children will again 35:18.612 --> 35:22.779 see America plant our flag on the surface of the moon. 35:23.457 --> 35:24.781 - And to drive the point home, how many computers 35:24.781 --> 35:28.304 did you have when you were doing Apollo 11? 35:28.304 --> 35:31.137 - You know that's interestingly... 35:31.780 --> 35:34.613 When we started off in the Gemini, 35:35.502 --> 35:38.548 we had the first solid state computer that 35:38.548 --> 35:40.570 was ever developed by IBM and they didn't trust us 35:40.570 --> 35:42.725 to operate and have them in mission control. 35:42.725 --> 35:45.192 They put them 700 miles north of the Cape 35:45.192 --> 35:48.156 at Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland. 35:48.156 --> 35:51.229 Our back-up communications was morse code. 35:51.229 --> 35:54.234 So basically we had to be as adept at morse code 35:54.234 --> 35:57.182 as we were in the space craft systems. 35:57.182 --> 35:59.449 The computer that we went down to the surface of the moon 35:59.449 --> 36:02.439 with was a 64k machine, 16k erasable. 36:02.439 --> 36:05.655 One cubic foot in volume and weighed 70 pounds. 36:05.655 --> 36:08.234 Try to carry that around in your wrist there. 36:08.234 --> 36:12.317 So the technology is there, the people are there, 36:13.533 --> 36:15.950 everything you need is ready. 36:16.359 --> 36:19.730 What we need is somebody to say let's go. 36:19.730 --> 36:21.233 - And the one thing that hasn't changed 36:21.233 --> 36:23.756 is human nature and the capability of humans 36:23.756 --> 36:27.076 to come together to display values, leadership, 36:27.076 --> 36:29.583 come together as a team and accomplish the impossible. 36:29.583 --> 36:32.306 So I think there's so many lessons we can take 36:32.306 --> 36:34.222 from the amazing accomplishments that you 36:34.222 --> 36:37.127 and that group of people at NASA accomplished 36:37.127 --> 36:39.053 and that your generation kind of showed us 36:39.053 --> 36:40.407 so we really appreciate that. 36:40.407 --> 36:42.129 Thanks so much for coming, for talking to us. 36:42.129 --> 36:44.694 We really enjoyed it and it's an honor to have you, sir. 36:44.694 --> 36:45.899 - Great, thank you very much sir. 36:45.899 --> 36:47.494 - Yes, sir Have a good one. 36:47.494 --> 36:50.827 - Come join us at overthehorizonmdos.com 36:50.944 --> 36:53.253 for more conversations on the emerging security 36:53.253 --> 36:55.176 environment and how we can handle it. 36:55.176 --> 36:57.009 Thanks for joining us. 36:57.584 --> 37:00.001 (rock music)