WEBVTT 00:04.795 --> 00:06.551 - I'd like to welcome everyone to this week's 00:06.551 --> 00:09.975 closing press conference for the 9/11 KSM et all 00:09.975 --> 00:11.833 military commissions hearing. 00:11.833 --> 00:13.907 For those of you that are here for the first time, 00:13.907 --> 00:16.758 we're going to essentially do it in three separate sessions. 00:16.758 --> 00:18.897 First it will be the prosecution going. 00:18.897 --> 00:20.363 They'll give a brief statement and then 00:20.363 --> 00:22.178 we'll open it up to questions. 00:22.178 --> 00:24.078 After they're completed, then we'll move on 00:24.078 --> 00:26.620 to the defense teams and then once they're done 00:26.620 --> 00:28.398 we'll move on to the final group, 00:28.398 --> 00:30.508 which is going to be the victim family members. 00:30.508 --> 00:32.993 And with that, I'll turn it over to you sir. 00:32.993 --> 00:35.410 - Thank you, Major Sakrisson. 00:39.403 --> 00:42.038 Good afternoon, I'm Brigadier General Mark Martins. 00:42.038 --> 00:44.786 I'm the Chief Prosecutor of Military Commissions. 00:44.786 --> 00:46.874 Before beginning, I would like to speak briefly 00:46.874 --> 00:49.940 to the family members of the 9/11 fallen. 00:49.940 --> 00:51.857 Gil, Vera, Meena, Neel, 00:54.336 --> 00:56.419 Ellen, Brian, Rob, Ellen, 00:58.164 --> 01:00.581 Charlie, we will never forget 01:01.298 --> 01:03.048 your lost loved ones. 01:03.856 --> 01:06.439 Richard, Christine and Michael, 01:07.410 --> 01:09.077 Prem, JR, all of the 01:12.870 --> 01:16.804 first responders, Charlie, we'll never forget them. 01:16.804 --> 01:19.971 We will be here however long it takes. 01:20.982 --> 01:24.666 And we know that being here on a week like this 01:24.666 --> 01:27.106 can trigger the full range of human emotion. 01:27.106 --> 01:30.962 We also know we can't possibly fathom your loss. 01:30.962 --> 01:35.129 But we'll be here however long it takes to do justice. 01:35.386 --> 01:38.219 The accused are presumed innocent. 01:38.249 --> 01:41.201 The prosecution must prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. 01:41.201 --> 01:44.284 We had this week a series of sessions 01:44.967 --> 01:46.967 without members present. 01:47.633 --> 01:50.550 Some of those were closed sessions. 01:50.591 --> 01:52.155 I'm getting the data for you, 01:52.155 --> 01:55.712 we'll distribute that for you in the statement 01:55.712 --> 01:59.879 so you can see proportion of sessions that were closed. 02:01.766 --> 02:04.481 About a dozen, by my count, motions 02:04.481 --> 02:07.064 we had substantial argument on. 02:07.196 --> 02:10.518 And that have been submitted to the judge for decision. 02:10.518 --> 02:13.268 He's taken those as is his habit. 02:13.585 --> 02:15.373 It's under advisement. 02:15.373 --> 02:17.623 And he will deal with them. 02:17.738 --> 02:18.645 I'm sure we'll get rulings. 02:18.645 --> 02:20.977 He did issue a number of rulings this week 02:20.977 --> 02:22.641 having to do with the conduct 02:22.641 --> 02:26.308 of the closed session today, this afternoon. 02:26.957 --> 02:28.804 It was a couple hours and I'll get you, 02:28.804 --> 02:32.288 again, I'll try to get you the precise time of that. 02:32.288 --> 02:35.288 But he did issue orders on Thursday. 02:39.481 --> 02:41.451 Wednesday and Thursday to make sure that we were 02:41.451 --> 02:44.625 doing this with the appropriate findings 02:44.625 --> 02:47.542 as to the minimal closure necessary 02:48.488 --> 02:51.287 to achieve the security of the information 02:51.287 --> 02:55.454 while also ensuring we keep it as public as possible. 02:56.550 --> 03:00.383 So with that, let me open it up for questions. 03:09.834 --> 03:13.071 - [Carol] General, Carol Rosenberg with the Miami Herald. 03:13.071 --> 03:16.097 Your prosecutor said yesterday that there's no 03:16.097 --> 03:20.264 government consensus on building another SCIF courtroom. 03:21.131 --> 03:22.739 Is that question settled? 03:22.739 --> 03:26.822 Or will that be revisited in the new fiscal year? 03:27.252 --> 03:28.681 - So you should have now, by the way, 03:28.681 --> 03:30.376 we checked on it, it should be out. 03:30.376 --> 03:32.162 You have the pleading? 03:32.162 --> 03:36.329 Good, okay, so that is a coordinated position, Carol. 03:37.369 --> 03:40.286 And that is where things stand now. 03:40.920 --> 03:43.212 And we had some discussion of that this week. 03:43.212 --> 03:44.661 Of course, it's before the judge, 03:44.661 --> 03:47.879 so I'm going to let that motion speak for itself. 03:47.879 --> 03:50.712 But I can amplify the basic point, 03:51.552 --> 03:54.822 which is we're going to do these trials. 03:54.822 --> 03:57.342 The necessary resources are going to be expended 03:57.342 --> 03:59.347 to ensure we have these trials. 03:59.347 --> 04:01.627 There's quite a bit of infrastructure in place 04:01.627 --> 04:03.887 all around you and a lot of people working 04:03.887 --> 04:07.887 very, very hard, very hard, to make this happen. 04:07.888 --> 04:09.471 And it will happen. 04:09.579 --> 04:13.246 We're in a phase of pretrial and you can see 04:14.175 --> 04:17.570 this judge, I saw it last week with the Hadi judge 04:17.570 --> 04:20.686 and earlier, just a few weeks ago with the judge 04:20.686 --> 04:23.576 in the Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri case. 04:23.576 --> 04:24.953 They're very much thinking about how 04:24.953 --> 04:27.536 to coordinate schedules and get it done. 04:27.536 --> 04:28.712 And it will get done. 04:28.712 --> 04:29.591 It will get done. 04:29.591 --> 04:32.366 It's a lot of discussion this week of witnesses 04:32.366 --> 04:36.525 and movements and those kinds of things will be supported. 04:36.525 --> 04:38.911 They will be supported by the government 04:38.911 --> 04:40.559 as we can get them scheduled. 04:40.559 --> 04:44.476 We just have to do it in a coordinated fashion. 04:48.631 --> 04:50.575 - [John] John Ryan from Lawdragon. 04:50.575 --> 04:52.306 - John. - Can you talk 04:52.306 --> 04:55.556 a little bit about what we might expect 04:55.885 --> 04:58.712 with the personal jurisdiction hearing 04:58.712 --> 04:59.741 in upcoming sessions? 04:59.741 --> 05:01.426 If one team is ready to move forward, 05:01.426 --> 05:03.841 could we see, in October, the government 05:03.841 --> 05:04.965 bringing its witnesses? 05:04.965 --> 05:06.266 - I don't see that. 05:06.266 --> 05:08.593 Right now, I think what I see happening 05:08.593 --> 05:11.843 in October is a lot of prep for a major 05:12.608 --> 05:14.941 set of evidentiary hearings. 05:17.131 --> 05:20.893 The judge is going to be giving us a trial conduct order. 05:20.893 --> 05:23.078 And it will talk about that. 05:23.078 --> 05:24.934 But there's going to be litigation 05:24.934 --> 05:26.984 over witnesses that have been called. 05:26.984 --> 05:28.734 What's their purpose? 05:28.994 --> 05:30.744 And which ones, when? 05:31.948 --> 05:34.698 But we have two weeks in October, 05:35.872 --> 05:37.789 I think it's the first, 05:38.406 --> 05:40.739 no, it's the last two weeks. 05:41.064 --> 05:44.207 Starts about the, get here about the 14th. 05:44.207 --> 05:47.441 We're definitely going to spend that first week 05:47.441 --> 05:51.608 addressing witness issues and there's just a lot of them. 05:52.975 --> 05:54.416 So we're going to be doing a lot of that. 05:54.416 --> 05:56.904 But I don't see, there may be an odd motion 05:56.904 --> 05:59.669 or two where we bring up a witness in 05:59.669 --> 06:01.844 talking about something not associated with merits, 06:01.844 --> 06:06.011 not associated with the personal jurisdiction question. 06:06.236 --> 06:08.087 But I don't think you're going to be seeing 06:08.087 --> 06:11.754 a major sequence of merits witnesses on that 06:12.501 --> 06:16.668 or witnesses on that motion, on the merits of that motion. 06:19.756 --> 06:20.743 - [John] One more thing on that, 06:20.743 --> 06:24.410 in court, I think Clay Trivett had made some 06:25.070 --> 06:27.667 statement that the government's going to lay out 06:27.667 --> 06:31.425 a factual case about the existence of hostilities 06:31.425 --> 06:34.272 and he characterized some of what the defense 06:34.272 --> 06:36.771 was maybe trying to do as a legal argument. 06:36.771 --> 06:39.431 With the government filing still sealed, 06:39.431 --> 06:40.502 I think, can you go into that? 06:40.502 --> 06:43.002 About why the government might not want the defense 06:43.002 --> 06:46.291 to have their law of war experts testify at that? 06:46.291 --> 06:47.805 - Yeah, I don't want to get into that. 06:47.805 --> 06:49.085 Because that's part of the discussion 06:49.085 --> 06:51.226 of whether or not certain kinds of witnesses 06:51.226 --> 06:53.627 should come, in this case, an expert witness. 06:53.627 --> 06:55.627 But I can tell you that, 06:56.719 --> 07:00.886 I can again, step back, I can talk to you about procedure. 07:03.489 --> 07:07.208 Actually, it's not a personal jurisdiction question. 07:07.208 --> 07:10.375 And Mr. Trivett described this nuance. 07:11.722 --> 07:14.163 We are talking about subject matter jurisdiction. 07:14.163 --> 07:16.695 This is the jurisdiction of the commission 07:16.695 --> 07:18.799 to hear this kind of case. 07:18.799 --> 07:21.229 It tends to be called personal jurisdiction 07:21.229 --> 07:24.010 from time to time because the subject matter 07:24.010 --> 07:28.177 jurisdiction test, in a military court of the United States, 07:30.011 --> 07:31.635 all the way through our history, 07:31.635 --> 07:34.544 there was a brief period of time in the '60s and '70s 07:34.544 --> 07:36.392 where the Supreme Court had a doctrine 07:36.392 --> 07:38.487 that check, questioned this a bit. 07:38.487 --> 07:39.912 It's called the service-connection test. 07:39.912 --> 07:42.162 But for all of our history, 07:42.331 --> 07:45.898 the main test of whether a military court can hear a case 07:45.898 --> 07:49.315 is the military status of the individual. 07:50.425 --> 07:53.209 And that's why it tends to get called personal jurisdiction. 07:53.209 --> 07:55.000 But you're actually looking at the status 07:55.000 --> 07:58.179 of the individual at the time of the crime. 07:58.179 --> 08:00.862 Personal jurisdiction kind of looks at 08:00.862 --> 08:02.779 what is the person now? 08:04.044 --> 08:05.432 Can we bring him before the court? 08:05.432 --> 08:06.831 Subject matter jurisdiction is 08:06.831 --> 08:09.831 can this court do this kind of case? 08:10.295 --> 08:13.378 And that test has been a status case. 08:14.123 --> 08:17.293 So is this person, under the Military Commissions Act, 08:17.293 --> 08:20.626 an alien unprivileged enemy belligerent? 08:21.860 --> 08:26.027 And belligerency incorporates the definition of hostilities. 08:27.223 --> 08:30.140 So that's why this becomes an issue 08:30.227 --> 08:32.810 in this jurisdictional hearing. 08:33.071 --> 08:34.467 And because it is jurisdictional, 08:34.467 --> 08:36.769 you hear Mr. Trivett say this as well, 08:36.769 --> 08:39.018 we've got to take that very seriously. 08:39.018 --> 08:41.352 That's not your normal motion. 08:41.352 --> 08:43.850 And we have the burden, if it's raised. 08:43.850 --> 08:46.725 So if an individual is brought into 08:46.725 --> 08:49.480 the military commission courtroom, 08:49.480 --> 08:51.155 that individual has a right 08:51.155 --> 08:53.905 to a upfront evidentiary hearing. 08:54.418 --> 08:56.936 It doesn't have to go to trial on the merits. 08:56.936 --> 08:59.265 It can get an evidentiary hearing. 08:59.265 --> 09:01.837 Preponderance of the evidence standard. 09:01.837 --> 09:03.031 It's not a trial of guilt or innocence, 09:03.031 --> 09:07.005 it's is this person an alien unprivileged enemy belligerent? 09:07.005 --> 09:08.332 So we have to prove all those things. 09:08.332 --> 09:11.061 We got to prove the person's not a US citizen. 09:11.061 --> 09:13.447 We've got to prove that the individual 09:13.447 --> 09:16.114 is in an armed conflict with us. 09:18.093 --> 09:21.926 And not complying with the Geneva Conventions. 09:22.511 --> 09:26.067 Requirements for being a privileged belligerent. 09:26.067 --> 09:29.655 Wearing a uniform, subject to the laws of war, 09:29.655 --> 09:30.913 obeying the orders of a commander 09:30.913 --> 09:33.026 who's obeying the laws of war. 09:33.026 --> 09:36.304 Distinguishing yourself from non-combatants. 09:36.304 --> 09:38.912 So that's what that is all about. 09:38.912 --> 09:42.096 What you saw this week was discussion, too, 09:42.096 --> 09:45.968 about other motions that are closely associated with that. 09:45.968 --> 09:48.385 So this issue of hostilities. 09:48.411 --> 09:50.744 Not only is it a part of the 09:52.331 --> 09:56.414 subject matter jurisdictional question of status, 09:57.381 --> 09:58.912 unprivileged belligerency, 09:58.912 --> 10:01.829 it's also its own issue when we get 10:02.849 --> 10:06.766 to the merits, if we do, presumption innocence. 10:07.108 --> 10:09.262 But if we get to the merits, 10:09.262 --> 10:12.512 then you have a element in each offense 10:13.927 --> 10:15.819 that is whether the offense took place 10:15.819 --> 10:18.202 in the context of hostilities. 10:18.202 --> 10:21.952 So you have a factual question for the panel. 10:22.007 --> 10:25.601 So hostilities figures in those different ways. 10:25.601 --> 10:27.456 This one, what you're hearing about, 10:27.456 --> 10:31.123 is related to that aspect of the proceeding. 10:32.025 --> 10:34.025 Again, we don't have to put on all of our evidence, 10:34.025 --> 10:36.842 we have to put on enough to show that this individual 10:36.842 --> 10:38.879 was an unprivileged belligerent. 10:38.879 --> 10:40.200 But we're going to be careful 10:40.200 --> 10:41.642 because if we don't get it right, 10:41.642 --> 10:43.004 we don't have jurisdiction. 10:43.004 --> 10:45.112 This commission doesn't have jurisdiction. 10:45.112 --> 10:47.212 So the prosecutors tend to err on the side 10:47.212 --> 10:49.629 of ensuring we put in enough. 10:49.720 --> 10:53.137 And then the other issue that's out there 10:54.174 --> 10:56.941 that you heard that goes to scheduling, 10:56.941 --> 10:59.858 is the kind of evidence we're using 11:00.903 --> 11:02.862 to establish unprivileged belligerency. 11:02.862 --> 11:05.003 It's still subject to the rules of evidence 11:05.003 --> 11:08.503 in the commission and motions to suppress. 11:10.080 --> 11:11.933 Is this admissible, is it competent? 11:11.933 --> 11:15.507 Is it subject to any exclusionary rule, et cetera? 11:15.507 --> 11:18.340 And so there's a bit of a question 11:18.890 --> 11:21.222 of what should the judge do first. 11:21.222 --> 11:23.049 And he's a judge, he can do some things 11:23.049 --> 11:24.908 in an order that you wouldn't normally 11:24.908 --> 11:26.502 do in front of a jury. 11:26.502 --> 11:29.210 But he's going to think about that carefully. 11:29.210 --> 11:31.960 And I think we'll get this trial conduct order 11:31.960 --> 11:33.856 that'll tell us how he wants to do it. 11:33.856 --> 11:35.460 But that's what we're heading in to. 11:35.460 --> 11:38.031 And so these witnesses can be going 11:38.031 --> 11:40.543 to a couple of the different issues. 11:40.543 --> 11:42.028 And we're going to do it in a way 11:42.028 --> 11:44.695 that's as efficient as possible. 11:44.779 --> 11:47.347 We like not to call somebody more than once 11:47.347 --> 11:50.180 if we can try to get the testimony 11:50.753 --> 11:53.099 out of the person at one time. 11:53.099 --> 11:54.797 So that's a very helpful question 11:54.797 --> 11:58.880 for me to explain some of that that was going on. 12:02.826 --> 12:04.145 - [Carol] I have two housekeeping questions 12:04.145 --> 12:07.062 while other people think of theirs. 12:08.035 --> 12:10.067 We've learned that the USS Cole hearing, 12:10.067 --> 12:13.045 case hearing has been postponed until October, November. 12:13.045 --> 12:14.280 Do you know if at that point, 12:14.280 --> 12:17.197 we will hear from the IA witnesses? 12:19.513 --> 12:23.596 And then, secondarily, the week started off, Sir, 12:23.606 --> 12:25.958 with an open question about a filing 12:25.958 --> 12:27.958 and unfamiliar markings. 12:29.078 --> 12:31.278 And your side, the prosecution, 12:31.278 --> 12:33.925 was asked, I believe, to sort out 12:33.925 --> 12:36.491 the circumstances of im-per-part-ment 12:36.491 --> 12:38.423 and how to get it to the judge. 12:38.423 --> 12:41.027 Is there any resolution on that, Sir? 12:41.027 --> 12:42.608 - Your first question, Carol, 12:42.608 --> 12:45.672 was related to the Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri 12:45.672 --> 12:47.706 case in September, yeah, I saw that was 12:47.706 --> 12:50.123 an order yesterday, or today. 12:50.655 --> 12:52.215 Running together a bit. 12:52.215 --> 12:56.382 That canceled September, but added a week to November. 12:56.920 --> 13:01.087 So the November's definitely on, the two weeks there. 13:01.664 --> 13:03.298 We have things on the docket, 13:03.298 --> 13:07.465 including a cross-examination of a witness in deposition. 13:08.704 --> 13:11.650 So I think even though it says sessions 13:11.650 --> 13:13.897 on the order, there's a contemplation 13:13.897 --> 13:17.230 that we would be actually in deposition. 13:17.782 --> 13:19.019 Which isn't really a session, 13:19.019 --> 13:21.584 as I've explained to some of you before. 13:21.584 --> 13:22.705 And it is not open. 13:22.705 --> 13:25.216 In the Nashiri case, it's not open to the public. 13:25.216 --> 13:29.369 If we're going to be doing the deposition period there. 13:29.369 --> 13:31.499 And we'll just have to see. 13:31.499 --> 13:33.763 The parties are providing what precisely 13:33.763 --> 13:35.253 should get done, we're talking about 13:35.253 --> 13:37.225 the sequence of motions and things. 13:37.225 --> 13:39.153 So yeah, so the three weeks in September 13:39.153 --> 13:42.653 that were Nashiri are not on the calendar. 13:43.998 --> 13:47.057 Your second question related to markings and things. 13:47.057 --> 13:50.849 And I haven't actually eye-balled the specific pages. 13:50.849 --> 13:53.266 I've seen that filing before. 13:53.559 --> 13:56.791 And I think I'm familiar with what the issue was 13:56.791 --> 13:59.581 and we were getting the appropriate classification 13:59.581 --> 14:01.928 authorities together to talk about markings 14:01.928 --> 14:04.808 and whether or not something we provided 14:04.808 --> 14:08.975 needed to be more clearly marked because of a program 14:09.484 --> 14:12.401 that had evolved into another name, 14:12.815 --> 14:15.538 is what often happens in these kinds of things. 14:15.538 --> 14:17.977 And that's what Mr. Trivett mentioned. 14:17.977 --> 14:20.295 But I did look into it enough to know 14:20.295 --> 14:24.462 that that is not a big show-stopper kind of issue. 14:25.683 --> 14:27.409 This is something that's a little bit 14:27.409 --> 14:30.133 of let's get the classification authorities to talk. 14:30.133 --> 14:32.243 We have information security policies 14:32.243 --> 14:33.917 and regulations for a reason. 14:33.917 --> 14:35.917 We want our documents to be well-marked. 14:35.917 --> 14:38.431 So I'm not pooh-poohing it or minimizing it, 14:38.431 --> 14:41.486 but I didn't see it as being a serious thing. 14:41.486 --> 14:43.490 And it's good for us to know those things in advance, 14:43.490 --> 14:47.323 if we can, because we can often sort those out 14:47.369 --> 14:50.125 without taking up time in the courtroom. 14:50.125 --> 14:52.513 (Carol speaking off microphone) 14:52.513 --> 14:54.982 I had gotten word, and I'm going to make sure 14:54.982 --> 14:57.540 it's the right one, but we were making sure 14:57.540 --> 15:00.311 we had the two classification authorities at issue 15:00.311 --> 15:02.953 actually talking to the security managers on it. 15:02.953 --> 15:06.286 So I'll find out if that specific filing 15:08.398 --> 15:10.731 actually got fully resolved. 15:11.099 --> 15:13.356 And it has to do also with the trial judiciary 15:13.356 --> 15:16.335 accepting it, because they want it to be in 15:16.335 --> 15:19.252 the right, not only banner marking, 15:20.454 --> 15:22.937 but portion marking on the paragraphs. 15:22.937 --> 15:24.807 Which allows me to mention, 15:24.807 --> 15:26.780 and this goes to a question you had 15:26.780 --> 15:29.447 before I took the podium, Carol, 15:31.163 --> 15:34.913 which is the data that I mentioned to you on, 15:36.760 --> 15:39.177 was it Sunday, when we spoke, 15:40.208 --> 15:44.138 about the rendition, detention, interrogation discovery. 15:44.138 --> 15:47.060 We've put a roll-up of that in our statement. 15:47.060 --> 15:48.259 Do you have the statements? 15:48.259 --> 15:50.197 We're going to pass those out now. 15:50.197 --> 15:53.138 So as of 17, July, the judge had worked 15:53.138 --> 15:56.450 through all of our materials that we had submitted 15:56.450 --> 15:59.033 by 30, September, of last year. 15:59.480 --> 16:02.916 And had worked through it, some of it he had 16:02.916 --> 16:06.916 sent back to us, said, add this in, add that in. 16:07.815 --> 16:10.644 And we worked through all of those 16:10.644 --> 16:13.061 by 17, July, and we produced, 16:14.861 --> 16:17.694 he wanted to a number, we produced 16:17.963 --> 16:21.463 over 13,300-something, I think I summarize 16:21.504 --> 16:23.948 it in the statement as more than 13,000 pages 16:23.948 --> 16:28.115 of information related to these accused and the RDI program. 16:28.873 --> 16:31.118 In the 10 categories of information 16:31.118 --> 16:35.027 that the judge laid out in appellate exhibit 397. 16:35.027 --> 16:38.944 There were some 28 different protective orders. 16:41.434 --> 16:44.934 Some 31 or two installments of information 16:45.535 --> 16:48.650 seeking substitutions and other relief. 16:48.650 --> 16:51.733 And then with regard to other motions 16:51.907 --> 16:54.332 that come out of this, where defense counsel 16:54.332 --> 16:57.228 want to use it and start working with it. 16:57.228 --> 16:59.293 And we've already seen some evidence of that, 16:59.293 --> 17:03.012 that they're using the discovery we've provided. 17:03.012 --> 17:06.242 That is what triggers these questions of markings 17:06.242 --> 17:09.735 and how do we us it, but a lot of pain has gone into, 17:09.735 --> 17:13.735 painstaking work has gone into trying to produce 17:14.071 --> 17:18.071 that in a form that can be used and is valuable. 17:19.127 --> 17:22.127 - [Terry] Terry McDermott, HuffPost. 17:24.644 --> 17:26.309 Somebody remarked in court this week, 17:26.309 --> 17:29.194 I can't remember, but it would be like the markings thing. 17:29.194 --> 17:31.334 And then they mentioned several other things. 17:31.334 --> 17:34.364 Everything seems to take way more than time 17:34.364 --> 17:36.281 than it normally would. 17:37.751 --> 17:40.527 Does that seem true to you or is that just the? 17:40.527 --> 17:42.110 - I think there's a 17:45.548 --> 17:49.381 little bit of a tax in terms of classification 17:49.470 --> 17:52.887 and security on these things, yeah, I do. 17:53.100 --> 17:55.933 And that's one measure of the dual 17:57.756 --> 17:59.858 importance of both getting the information 17:59.858 --> 18:02.762 to the right people and to protecting the national security. 18:02.762 --> 18:04.545 It appears everywhere. 18:04.545 --> 18:07.112 And it's not just our special problem. 18:07.112 --> 18:09.269 We're all paying that tax in the airports 18:09.269 --> 18:11.019 and everywhere we go. 18:11.084 --> 18:15.251 We're seeing security measures that we didn't see long ago. 18:15.804 --> 18:18.218 And it's something we all have to pay. 18:18.218 --> 18:22.385 And in this case, it's a member of the esteemed media, 18:23.260 --> 18:26.760 having to come down here a few more times. 18:26.902 --> 18:30.420 For us, we pay that tax in a lot of different ways. 18:30.420 --> 18:34.587 But it's there, I tend to not see it as insuperable at all. 18:36.148 --> 18:38.674 I think we're going to work our way through it. 18:38.674 --> 18:42.841 And a lot of times it is a function of communications. 18:43.105 --> 18:45.855 And coordination on these things. 18:49.555 --> 18:51.264 One thing you'll see come up, Terry, 18:51.264 --> 18:54.999 too, in these, is you've got an adversarial process. 18:54.999 --> 18:56.489 Which, to some extent, is built on 18:56.489 --> 18:58.989 each side preventing its case. 18:59.932 --> 19:02.389 And not all of that is going to be shared in advance. 19:02.389 --> 19:05.795 We are built on a system where we don't ambush 19:05.795 --> 19:07.843 the other side and that's why we give 19:07.843 --> 19:10.243 so much discovery and so forth. 19:10.243 --> 19:12.782 But that said, there's an opportunity 19:12.782 --> 19:15.615 for counsel to rethink how they're 19:16.782 --> 19:18.381 going to present something, do this, 19:18.381 --> 19:20.177 maybe I don't want to use that, maybe I do. 19:20.177 --> 19:22.844 And so that can cause some delay 19:24.532 --> 19:26.652 back in the other direction about letting us see 19:26.652 --> 19:30.819 what you want to display and you can get into that, too. 19:32.180 --> 19:35.028 And that's just a function of the adversarial process 19:35.028 --> 19:39.195 having to coexist with this need for information security. 19:40.976 --> 19:42.142 - [Terry] But there's stuff, too, 19:42.142 --> 19:46.251 that it doesn't involve that at all, like the MRI. 19:46.251 --> 19:48.001 - What about the MRI? 19:48.008 --> 19:48.841 - [Terry] There was supposed to be 19:48.841 --> 19:51.266 an MRI machine brought down here a year ago? 19:51.266 --> 19:52.748 - It's going to happen. 19:52.748 --> 19:55.004 It's being available. - Explain for me, 19:55.004 --> 19:58.964 if you would, why that would take a year or more? 19:58.964 --> 20:00.991 - Well, you have to get the right equipment. 20:00.991 --> 20:02.561 And you have to get something that, 20:02.561 --> 20:04.566 when it comes down here, can actually do the job. 20:04.566 --> 20:06.714 It's actually a quite complicated, 20:06.714 --> 20:08.586 expensive big piece of equipment. 20:08.586 --> 20:09.524 You've got to get it down here, 20:09.524 --> 20:10.884 you've got to get it calibrated. 20:10.884 --> 20:12.617 You've got to make sure that 20:12.617 --> 20:15.220 what it does answers the question. 20:15.220 --> 20:17.637 And can provide the expertise 20:17.809 --> 20:21.059 to the decision maker that it needs to. 20:23.370 --> 20:25.820 And Guantanamo does not have a population 20:25.820 --> 20:28.987 that most metrics and medical decision 20:30.453 --> 20:33.939 making criteria would say needs to have one. 20:33.939 --> 20:35.804 But it's coming and it's going to be here. 20:35.804 --> 20:37.388 And it's going to be here in time for the trials 20:37.388 --> 20:40.942 and in time, it will be here in time for capital defense 20:40.942 --> 20:43.637 counsel to the extent they need it, to use it. 20:43.637 --> 20:47.412 So I'm not exactly saying, so, what's the problem? 20:47.412 --> 20:51.579 But I am saying these things are all being worked. 20:52.437 --> 20:55.937 And we're going to push forward with them. 20:59.557 --> 21:02.161 - [Terry] I have a followup to John's question earlier, too. 21:02.161 --> 21:04.261 Maybe this isn't even a proper question. 21:04.261 --> 21:07.309 But is there some sort of an article, 21:07.309 --> 21:10.464 a cheat sheet, something you could refer us to, 21:10.464 --> 21:13.145 for a further detailed explanation 21:13.145 --> 21:15.442 of the subject jurisdiction? 21:15.442 --> 21:18.341 - Sure, sure, we'll get you some literature on that. 21:18.341 --> 21:21.841 In fact, the best single thing to look at, 21:22.677 --> 21:26.344 that's current, is decision, it's a decision 21:28.165 --> 21:29.714 of the United States Court of Military 21:29.714 --> 21:32.297 Commission Review of last year. 21:32.869 --> 21:34.452 I think it's 14001. 21:37.268 --> 21:39.935 14001, but we'll get you a copy. 21:40.345 --> 21:43.343 And in that decision last year, of June of last year, 21:43.343 --> 21:46.010 the USCMCR, in the Nashiri case, 21:48.941 --> 21:52.024 specifically laid out the status test 21:53.788 --> 21:55.525 for subject matter jurisdiction. 21:55.525 --> 21:57.858 And it was in the context of 22:00.438 --> 22:03.605 a dismissal of charges relating to the 22:05.213 --> 22:08.046 vessel Limburg, French oil tanker. 22:08.472 --> 22:11.889 And in that context, the CMCR was hearing 22:13.226 --> 22:15.916 our interlocutory appeal of that. 22:15.916 --> 22:18.818 In which we were stating that the judge's 22:18.818 --> 22:21.500 requirement that we prove the element 22:21.500 --> 22:25.333 of the offense of hostilities, prior to trial, 22:27.460 --> 22:31.627 when jurisdiction had not been challenged, was improper. 22:33.514 --> 22:35.486 And so that was the context, but he then, 22:35.486 --> 22:36.562 in the course of doing that, 22:36.562 --> 22:39.630 the judge's laid out the test that I gave you. 22:39.630 --> 22:41.503 Which shouldn't have been surprising, 22:41.503 --> 22:43.416 because that has been how military courts 22:43.416 --> 22:46.221 going all the way back to Milligan 22:46.221 --> 22:49.801 and Civil War cases have dealt with this issue 22:49.801 --> 22:53.968 of how can you bring that individual into a military court? 22:55.690 --> 22:59.190 In courts martial, the question is status. 22:59.299 --> 23:00.736 And you're asking, is this person a Soldier, 23:00.736 --> 23:02.845 Sailor, Airman, Marine, Coast Guardsman 23:02.845 --> 23:04.935 or Reservist who's on active duty? 23:04.935 --> 23:07.435 Some category of person who is 23:10.377 --> 23:14.544 a combatant or a military person with military status. 23:15.861 --> 23:17.795 In the case of an unprivileged belligerent, 23:17.795 --> 23:20.614 you're asking, are they part of an armed conflict? 23:20.614 --> 23:24.447 And are they a solider in that armed conflict? 23:24.453 --> 23:25.694 Though an unprivileged soldier 23:25.694 --> 23:29.027 because they're not obeying laws of war. 23:29.972 --> 23:32.323 - Can I ask a followup? - Yes. 23:32.323 --> 23:33.726 - [Fionnuala] I'm Fionnuala Ni Aolain, 23:33.726 --> 23:36.226 Irish radio and Just Security. 23:36.295 --> 23:39.878 Do you have any concerns that the precedent 23:40.147 --> 23:43.980 set in that regard, in this military tribunal, 23:44.565 --> 23:46.751 diverges significantly from the practice 23:46.751 --> 23:49.334 of other states in this regard? 23:50.749 --> 23:52.832 - Not on the status test. 23:53.110 --> 23:55.693 I think that's not that unusual 23:57.830 --> 24:01.247 a criterion for the courts of the nation, 24:02.165 --> 24:05.165 a state party to law of war treaties 24:05.538 --> 24:07.788 or other Westphalian states 24:08.998 --> 24:11.248 to use a military tribunal. 24:12.908 --> 24:16.487 I know a number of states have moved away from that. 24:16.487 --> 24:19.470 But all of the main law of war conventions 24:19.470 --> 24:21.675 still acknowledge that one of the ways 24:21.675 --> 24:25.842 we're going to get enforcement of the laws of war. 24:26.017 --> 24:29.013 The way we're going to after horrific acts 24:29.013 --> 24:32.342 of carnage and violence in an armed conflict. 24:32.342 --> 24:36.509 And our nation recognizes us to be in an armed conflict. 24:36.937 --> 24:40.528 And certain attacks on civilians and so forth 24:40.528 --> 24:44.190 to have also been acts of war as well as civil crimes. 24:44.190 --> 24:48.190 So in those contexts, nation states are expected 24:48.368 --> 24:51.000 under the law of war to try to enforce that 24:51.000 --> 24:54.333 through whatever mechanism is authorized 24:54.639 --> 24:57.472 in their order, their legal order. 24:59.274 --> 25:02.016 In our case, a constitutional order. 25:02.016 --> 25:04.433 So military courts are there. 25:05.784 --> 25:08.008 If you look in the four Geneva Conventions, 25:08.008 --> 25:11.508 you'll see references to municipal courts. 25:11.510 --> 25:13.322 Courts of a country, as opposed 25:13.322 --> 25:15.739 to an international tribunal. 25:16.155 --> 25:19.405 And military commissions are one lawful 25:20.425 --> 25:21.661 forum for us to do it. 25:21.661 --> 25:23.597 So I think that's perfectly consistent 25:23.597 --> 25:26.597 with an order of peace-loving states 25:27.581 --> 25:31.388 getting together to try to, in their own ways, 25:31.388 --> 25:33.638 enforce the laws and punish 25:36.500 --> 25:38.288 acts of unspeakable carnage, violence, 25:38.288 --> 25:41.339 destruction, in the context of hostilities. 25:41.339 --> 25:44.256 So I'm not troubled by that at all. 25:44.792 --> 25:48.222 Things that do come up will be differences in views 25:48.222 --> 25:50.595 of things, and have come up in this context, 25:50.595 --> 25:53.762 differences in views over how we treat 25:54.159 --> 25:57.527 group crimes, conspiracies, and what are the standards? 25:57.527 --> 25:59.759 And some of those raise some questions 25:59.759 --> 26:03.426 about how we're interpreting the law of war. 26:03.620 --> 26:05.238 But in this particular area, 26:05.238 --> 26:07.349 which was your question, Ma'am, 26:07.349 --> 26:09.670 I don't think we're doing anything 26:09.670 --> 26:11.784 that's particularly controversial. 26:11.784 --> 26:14.034 Certainly not domestically. 26:14.765 --> 26:17.860 And our own Supreme Court has talked about this. 26:17.860 --> 26:19.943 There's a case of Solario 26:22.565 --> 26:24.440 versus the United States. 26:24.440 --> 26:26.940 Which is the main case in the, 26:27.576 --> 26:30.743 it establishes status, military status 26:30.746 --> 26:33.996 as being the test for a military court. 26:37.450 --> 26:39.035 Ma'am? - Hi, I'm Margot Williams 26:39.035 --> 26:41.702 with the Intercept. - Yes, Ma'am. 26:41.873 --> 26:43.639 - [Margot] I know this isn't your motion 26:43.639 --> 26:47.556 that I'm going to ask about, but I was confused 26:47.801 --> 26:50.663 and did not understand about this motion 26:50.663 --> 26:54.163 to suppress the Islamic response document. 26:55.790 --> 26:59.123 One part of the confusion in my mind was 27:01.007 --> 27:03.340 the motion seemed to be made 27:05.736 --> 27:08.395 to suppress it as evidence, but also part of what 27:08.395 --> 27:10.356 they were describing was the distribution 27:10.356 --> 27:12.599 of it to the family members. 27:12.599 --> 27:14.820 And I didn't get that kind of logic. 27:14.820 --> 27:16.737 And the other thing is, 27:16.874 --> 27:20.541 how would you deal if the motion was granted 27:21.010 --> 27:23.597 with making something disappear that is out 27:23.597 --> 27:25.930 in the public view and is a? 27:26.921 --> 27:28.532 - Because that's, we're talking now, 27:28.532 --> 27:30.375 you're getting into evidence and things 27:30.375 --> 27:32.054 that are still before the court. 27:32.054 --> 27:34.054 The judge has not ruled. 27:34.076 --> 27:36.492 We can get you the pages to the transcript 27:36.492 --> 27:40.135 and you can read Mr. Ryan's position on this. 27:40.135 --> 27:41.966 Let me just let that speak for itself. 27:41.966 --> 27:43.881 But I understand the interest. 27:43.881 --> 27:46.381 And I understand the question. 27:48.305 --> 27:49.917 That wasn't very helpful to you, was it, Margot? 27:49.917 --> 27:51.500 Sorry, that's okay. 27:53.202 --> 27:54.035 Terry, you got another one? 27:54.035 --> 27:55.250 - [Terry] Yeah, not that you didn't answer the question 27:55.250 --> 27:58.969 fully before, but when's the MRI going to be here? 27:58.969 --> 28:00.886 - We'll get you what we can get you on that. 28:00.886 --> 28:02.803 But it's inbound, okay. 28:03.633 --> 28:05.920 And I will get you something more, 28:05.920 --> 28:08.418 I'll get you what I can get you. 28:08.418 --> 28:09.898 (Terry speaking off microphone) 28:09.898 --> 28:12.622 Yeah (laughs) yeah. 28:12.622 --> 28:14.455 Doesn't sound like it. 28:14.553 --> 28:16.803 I see a big brain in there. 28:18.028 --> 28:20.406 - [John] If you can just describe 28:20.406 --> 28:22.790 how it came about that the AC Admiral 28:22.790 --> 28:25.737 is going to approve the defense teams 28:25.737 --> 28:27.827 on this case to some part of sweep 28:27.827 --> 28:31.004 or inspection of, that was sort of on the spot? 28:31.004 --> 28:32.158 - No, it wasn't on the spot. 28:32.158 --> 28:33.363 No, it's not on the spot. 28:33.363 --> 28:35.780 John, good question, but the, 28:41.799 --> 28:44.869 this was in the appellate exhibit 133 litigation, 28:44.869 --> 28:47.619 which had to do with a microphone 28:49.336 --> 28:53.245 that was found in a attorney-client meeting room 28:53.245 --> 28:55.578 that was a legacy situation. 28:56.493 --> 28:59.795 These were rooms used for law enforcement interviews, 28:59.795 --> 29:01.962 other types of interviews. 29:03.389 --> 29:06.306 And then we litigated that in 2013. 29:07.169 --> 29:10.002 And at that point, one of the ways 29:10.967 --> 29:12.608 of dealing with that, for the judge 29:12.608 --> 29:14.914 and the whole system was come inspect, 29:14.914 --> 29:17.120 see that nothing's hooked up. 29:17.120 --> 29:20.244 There has been no monitoring, audio monitoring, 29:20.244 --> 29:22.827 of attorneys and their clients. 29:23.777 --> 29:27.105 But we understand you want to look at the rooms. 29:27.105 --> 29:29.605 The joint task force commander 29:31.558 --> 29:33.212 allowed for inspections. 29:33.212 --> 29:35.753 And this was a renewal of that offer, 29:35.753 --> 29:39.336 in light of a, what they were referring to, 29:40.216 --> 29:42.549 in part, was a self-reported 29:45.028 --> 29:47.945 event by the JTF that non-arraigned 29:50.950 --> 29:53.792 detainees, it had nothing to do with any of the accused 29:53.792 --> 29:56.042 in any military commission. 29:56.314 --> 29:58.564 There had been an instance, 30:01.487 --> 30:04.570 an unauthorized but inadvertent event 30:05.256 --> 30:07.756 of overhearing attorney-client 30:11.475 --> 30:12.892 meetings in part. 30:13.140 --> 30:16.719 Self-reported by the JTF, we certainly were not, 30:16.719 --> 30:20.211 the prosecution, certainly not involved in this in any way. 30:20.211 --> 30:22.466 The JTF found this out, reported it 30:22.466 --> 30:24.799 and is acting to correct it. 30:25.575 --> 30:28.742 Our understanding is in light of that, 30:28.783 --> 30:32.557 they're seeking additional information and reassurances. 30:32.557 --> 30:36.390 In that context, the JTF commander has offered 30:36.527 --> 30:38.751 to the defense teams in these cases 30:38.751 --> 30:40.310 to look at the meeting rooms, 30:40.310 --> 30:43.170 reassure themselves that they're not 30:43.170 --> 30:47.087 linked up to active audio monitoring equipment. 30:48.446 --> 30:50.279 So that's the context. 30:50.654 --> 30:54.071 And that's all I can say in this setting. 30:56.333 --> 30:58.693 - [Fionnuala] Can I ask just one more question? 30:58.693 --> 31:01.112 The discussion of attorney-client relationships 31:01.112 --> 31:04.529 has pervaded this week in different ways. 31:04.559 --> 31:06.031 I just wonder how you characterize 31:06.031 --> 31:08.086 the significance of that relationship. 31:08.086 --> 31:09.964 For the government, what's their, 31:09.964 --> 31:11.337 how would you characterize the value 31:11.337 --> 31:12.803 of that relationship to your process? 31:12.803 --> 31:13.802 - I think it's critical. 31:13.802 --> 31:15.472 It's central to the process. 31:15.472 --> 31:17.122 The judge has called it sacrosanct 31:17.122 --> 31:19.789 and that's orders of this court. 31:20.023 --> 31:23.545 Essential, you'll talk to, I'm sure you will, 31:23.545 --> 31:25.696 to the defense counsel and hear what they believe 31:25.696 --> 31:27.916 about it and how they describe it. 31:27.916 --> 31:29.699 And they are more intimately familiar 31:29.699 --> 31:32.182 with how it goes in this case. 31:32.182 --> 31:34.849 For us, we listen to complaints. 31:36.210 --> 31:39.127 We are processing the full picture. 31:40.686 --> 31:43.103 And how it can get supported. 31:44.885 --> 31:48.765 The joint task force, which we represent in the courtroom, 31:48.765 --> 31:50.526 along with the rest of the government, 31:50.526 --> 31:53.244 takes it seriously and has orders about 31:53.244 --> 31:56.744 the protection of it, that I think the DVD 31:57.200 --> 31:59.875 that you provided you as a resource this week 31:59.875 --> 32:02.625 has on it, if you look in the references section. 32:02.625 --> 32:04.429 An interchange between the president 32:04.429 --> 32:06.781 of the American Bar Association 32:06.781 --> 32:10.047 and General Fraser, who was at the time, 32:10.047 --> 32:11.665 the United States Southern Command 32:11.665 --> 32:13.665 commander in 2011, 2012. 32:15.939 --> 32:17.763 And that was that whole issue. 32:17.763 --> 32:20.513 And it dealt with the legal mail, 32:21.878 --> 32:25.128 ability to communicate in written form. 32:25.625 --> 32:28.542 So it's something that has a number 32:28.553 --> 32:32.009 of different protective orders that address it. 32:32.009 --> 32:35.009 It's key to the adversarial process. 32:36.719 --> 32:39.504 It's a privilege that has a very special 32:39.504 --> 32:41.671 place in our legal system. 32:41.773 --> 32:44.539 That said, it's an adversarial process 32:44.539 --> 32:47.039 and we get a cut on the facts. 32:48.963 --> 32:52.880 And what is really happening and whether or not 32:52.899 --> 32:55.399 a attorney-client relationship 32:58.259 --> 33:00.926 is broken or harmed to the point 33:02.907 --> 33:05.074 of hurting the proceeding. 33:05.813 --> 33:09.730 One indicator of a relationship that is tested, 33:10.613 --> 33:13.780 I would submit to you, is one in which 33:13.933 --> 33:17.350 someone pleads guilty, fully represented. 33:18.470 --> 33:20.970 Attorneys, you're an attorney, 33:21.150 --> 33:23.752 prosecution or defense will acknowledge 33:23.752 --> 33:25.413 to you that's a situation where there has 33:25.413 --> 33:28.330 to be real trust and communication. 33:28.564 --> 33:31.643 And we've had fully provident guilty pleas. 33:31.643 --> 33:34.408 And I'd invite you to go read the record of trial. 33:34.408 --> 33:36.583 And those are attorneys who are able 33:36.583 --> 33:37.962 to meet with their client, they're able 33:37.962 --> 33:41.795 to communicate in a very rich and textured way 33:41.915 --> 33:45.081 in order to provide full representation. 33:45.081 --> 33:49.107 So we just ask that you consider all of the facts. 33:49.107 --> 33:51.164 This is an adversarial process and people 33:51.164 --> 33:54.562 are going to be arguing and making points. 33:54.562 --> 33:56.871 And the attorney-client relationship 33:56.871 --> 33:58.804 is something that often comes up, 33:58.804 --> 34:01.947 so we want you to consider all the facts. 34:01.947 --> 34:04.954 You can defend a client at Guantanamo. 34:04.954 --> 34:06.454 Happens every day. 34:17.848 --> 34:19.388 Thank you, thank you all. 34:19.388 --> 34:21.951 Let me just say, we are so appreciative 34:21.951 --> 34:24.718 to the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, 34:24.718 --> 34:27.718 Coast Guardsmen, civilian personnel, 34:28.368 --> 34:31.254 contractor personnel of Joint Task Force Guantanamo, 34:31.254 --> 34:34.542 Joint Base Andrews, all of those who support 34:34.542 --> 34:36.959 these proceedings, thank you. 34:41.990 --> 34:43.468 - My name is James Connell, 34:43.468 --> 34:45.459 along with Lieutenant Colonel Sterling Thomas 34:45.459 --> 34:47.006 of the United States Air Force. 34:47.006 --> 34:48.425 Major Jason Wareham of the United States 34:48.425 --> 34:49.865 Marine Corps and Alka Pradhan. 34:49.865 --> 34:51.876 I represent Ammar al-Baluchi. 34:51.876 --> 34:54.239 I'd like to begin just for a moment 34:54.239 --> 34:56.906 by recognizing the enormous pain 34:58.491 --> 35:02.270 and suffering of the victims of 9/11. 35:02.270 --> 35:05.658 People who were there, people who lost their loved ones. 35:05.658 --> 35:09.381 This week, some of them were kind enough to meet with us. 35:09.381 --> 35:13.464 We always learn enormously from those engagements 35:14.301 --> 35:16.193 and they mean a lot to us. 35:16.193 --> 35:18.834 Because there's essentially nothing that we can do 35:18.834 --> 35:21.292 that will lessen their suffering any way, but we can 35:21.292 --> 35:25.459 do our best to keep from adding to that suffering. 35:27.030 --> 35:30.290 General Martins, in the presentation he just gave, 35:30.290 --> 35:33.693 spent a lot of time talking about the adversarial system. 35:33.693 --> 35:35.333 One of the most important events this week, 35:35.333 --> 35:38.504 in my view, is that the military commission 35:38.504 --> 35:41.087 took up a 425, the motion which 35:43.245 --> 35:47.412 addresses a total failure of the adversarial system. 35:48.947 --> 35:50.799 In an adversarial system, 35:50.799 --> 35:53.764 even with occasional ex parte pleadings, 35:53.764 --> 35:55.905 everything important eventually 35:55.905 --> 35:58.405 is provided to the other side. 35:59.396 --> 36:02.570 And not just eventually, but in a timely manner 36:02.570 --> 36:05.487 that can be dealt with in some way. 36:06.040 --> 36:08.540 The statements of the military 36:11.361 --> 36:14.028 judge yesterday and the evidence 36:14.476 --> 36:16.173 of the emails that were exchanged 36:16.173 --> 36:19.909 between the prosecution and the trial judiciary demonstrate 36:19.909 --> 36:23.992 that the adversarial system went seriously wrong. 36:25.707 --> 36:29.790 In the manner of the destruction of a black site, 36:31.009 --> 36:33.759 which had been ordered preserved. 36:34.397 --> 36:36.543 I won't repeat everything that was said in court this week, 36:36.543 --> 36:40.710 but it is clear that there was a legitimate expectation 36:41.606 --> 36:44.627 on the part of the defense that the black site 36:44.627 --> 36:46.344 would be preserved because the judge 36:46.344 --> 36:48.470 had ordered it to be preserved. 36:48.470 --> 36:51.220 And that the government exploited 36:51.793 --> 36:54.710 its ex parte communications to have 36:55.396 --> 36:57.492 that black site destroyed before 36:57.492 --> 37:00.603 the defense could know what was going on. 37:00.603 --> 37:03.853 So I'll be happy to take any questions. 37:05.537 --> 37:07.954 John? - One question on that. 37:09.911 --> 37:13.330 I know that there's this issue of the judge 37:13.330 --> 37:16.247 did not see the original black site 37:16.940 --> 37:19.305 and so under CIPA principles, 37:19.305 --> 37:21.396 you found a problem with that. 37:21.396 --> 37:23.720 But at the end today, you mentioned that even 37:23.720 --> 37:26.970 aside from that, this series of motions 37:27.039 --> 37:30.091 wasn't under the 505 series, that it wasn't, 37:30.091 --> 37:31.940 can you explain that detail a little bit more? 37:31.940 --> 37:34.746 - Sure, so on many, many occasions, 37:34.746 --> 37:36.849 the government seeks substitutions 37:36.849 --> 37:40.766 under Military Commission Rule of Evidence 505, 37:40.875 --> 37:43.958 in which the judge compares originals 37:44.632 --> 37:48.117 to substitutions, which are proposed by the government. 37:48.117 --> 37:50.501 General Martins just addressed the question, 37:50.501 --> 37:54.134 he said there were 28 protective orders in the 308 series. 37:54.134 --> 37:55.438 And those protective orders 37:55.438 --> 37:58.271 are the result of the 505 process. 37:58.783 --> 38:02.095 Let's say there's a classified piece of information, 38:02.095 --> 38:04.969 say a cable from the CIA, the government will 38:04.969 --> 38:08.785 submit the cable to the judge and a substitution 38:08.785 --> 38:11.558 for the cable to the judge and the judge looks at it 38:11.558 --> 38:14.773 and says, is the substitution, give the defense 38:14.773 --> 38:16.670 substantially the same ability to make a defense 38:16.670 --> 38:18.753 as the original evidence? 38:18.881 --> 38:22.881 That's the CIPA process, that's the 505 process. 38:23.386 --> 38:26.160 What became clear this week is that 38:26.160 --> 38:28.493 when the government invoked, 38:29.440 --> 38:31.283 or when the government made a request 38:31.283 --> 38:34.741 to allow the destruction of the black site, 38:34.741 --> 38:36.876 it did not invoke that process. 38:36.876 --> 38:40.376 It did not say to the military commission, 38:40.613 --> 38:42.787 look, here's an original something 38:42.787 --> 38:46.193 and here's a substitute we want to have for that something. 38:46.193 --> 38:50.000 All of the pleadings on that topic bear out that idea. 38:50.000 --> 38:51.696 So the government wasn't asking 38:51.696 --> 38:54.023 for a substitution under 505. 38:54.023 --> 38:58.131 When we responded to it, we weren't responding to 505. 38:58.131 --> 39:01.798 When the judge ruled in that 52 double-echo, 39:02.386 --> 39:04.739 the actual order that should have been 39:04.739 --> 39:06.861 provided to the defense that wasn't, 39:06.861 --> 39:09.694 he didn't rule on the 505 process. 39:10.627 --> 39:12.905 One of the reasons why that's significant, 39:12.905 --> 39:14.721 you're like, well, so what does it matter 39:14.721 --> 39:16.721 whether it's 505 or not? 39:17.242 --> 39:20.106 Is that when Congress wrote the Military Commissions Act 39:20.106 --> 39:23.881 of 2009, it incorporated a feature that is not 39:23.881 --> 39:27.787 in federal courts in CIPA or is not in courts martial 39:27.787 --> 39:30.228 in Military Rule of Evidence 505. 39:30.228 --> 39:33.395 And that's the bar on reconsideration. 39:33.416 --> 39:36.416 The Military Commissions Act of 2009 39:36.866 --> 39:40.283 has a provision that says that if a judge 39:40.716 --> 39:44.716 has made a finding under MCRE 505 or equivalent, 39:49.528 --> 39:51.486 when I say equivalent, I mean under 949, 39:51.486 --> 39:53.403 pop before the statute. 39:53.562 --> 39:57.479 The decision is not subject to reconsideration. 39:59.490 --> 40:02.035 If we were in a federal court, for example, 40:02.035 --> 40:05.785 and the court says, look, I looked at paper A 40:06.970 --> 40:09.795 and paper A prime and I think that paper A prime 40:09.795 --> 40:13.622 gives you all the same information as paper A. 40:13.622 --> 40:16.418 Then I, as a defense attorney, could go back to court 40:16.418 --> 40:19.723 and say, look, when A prime was drafted, 40:19.723 --> 40:23.890 it left out this significant piece of information. 40:24.282 --> 40:26.782 What the military judge ruled, 40:27.044 --> 40:30.941 when he denied the witnesses that we requested to call, 40:30.941 --> 40:34.245 and the witnesses that Mr. Mohammed requested to call, 40:34.245 --> 40:37.247 was that he was denying all of those witnesses 40:37.247 --> 40:41.414 because no reconsideration was allowed of a 505 issue. 40:43.510 --> 40:46.801 The legal significance of that point that I was making is 40:46.801 --> 40:49.448 that we don't fall under that, this issue doesn't fall under 40:49.448 --> 40:53.615 that bar on reconsideration because it wasn't a 505 issue. 40:53.765 --> 40:55.552 I know that was a little more technical than I usually 40:55.552 --> 40:57.483 like to get, but does that make sense, John? 40:57.483 --> 40:59.983 You have a technical audience. 41:00.516 --> 41:01.349 - [John] Yeah, it makes sense. 41:01.349 --> 41:05.099 But the taking of the longer video production 41:06.105 --> 41:09.305 into a more condensed or edited one that you have 41:09.305 --> 41:11.388 was 505, - Right, correct. 41:11.398 --> 41:12.898 Yes, that's right. 41:19.020 --> 41:20.890 - [Carol] Carol Rosenberg with the Miami Herald. 41:20.890 --> 41:23.214 I wanted to ask the same question I asked the General. 41:23.214 --> 41:26.026 The week started off with your motion 41:26.026 --> 41:29.193 and 10 underlying sequential documents 41:30.407 --> 41:33.869 not being accepted because of irregular markings. 41:33.869 --> 41:35.514 Have they accepted them yet? 41:35.514 --> 41:37.931 - No. - What's the resolution? 41:38.176 --> 41:40.932 - There is no resolution that I know about. 41:40.932 --> 41:42.766 General Martins may have access to information 41:42.766 --> 41:46.702 that I don't have, but the documents are not accepted 41:46.702 --> 41:50.619 and there's been no resolution to my knowledge. 41:52.241 --> 41:56.408 When I get back, I will talk to the court information 41:56.705 --> 41:58.973 security officer and see if there's any additional 41:58.973 --> 42:01.691 information, but I haven't heard anything 42:01.691 --> 42:03.670 in any kind of official capacity. 42:03.670 --> 42:04.615 - [Carol] But that's not your role. 42:04.615 --> 42:05.814 That's theirs, right? 42:05.814 --> 42:08.897 - Well, the actual filing is my role. 42:10.517 --> 42:13.265 The way that this issue came up was, 42:13.265 --> 42:14.567 it's actually very difficult 42:14.567 --> 42:16.359 to follow these top secret pleadings. 42:16.359 --> 42:18.841 It takes two people and a courier bag 42:18.841 --> 42:23.008 and certain courier card and all these other things. 42:24.481 --> 42:27.580 It has to be at a certain time of day. 42:27.580 --> 42:31.747 It's logistically, very hard to follow these things. 42:32.067 --> 42:34.920 The paralegals go over to actually do the filing 42:34.920 --> 42:36.406 and they have to hand carry it to 42:36.406 --> 42:39.028 the court reporter or the trial judiciary 42:39.028 --> 42:41.151 and they have to hand carry it to the prosecution. 42:41.151 --> 42:44.814 So the first stop is always the trial judiciary, 42:44.814 --> 42:46.658 in case they have a problem. 42:46.658 --> 42:50.825 We've not marked something properly or something else. 42:51.232 --> 42:54.899 When they took it for filing, a conversation 42:55.678 --> 42:58.595 began between me and the CISO about 43:00.848 --> 43:02.776 are these going to be accepted for filing? 43:02.776 --> 43:04.894 What would we have to do get them filed? 43:04.894 --> 43:07.394 Is there a solution available? 43:07.709 --> 43:09.417 The fact that there was long conversation 43:09.417 --> 43:11.745 is actually the reason why there was a gap 43:11.745 --> 43:15.328 between 6, June, 2017 when we tried to file 43:16.051 --> 43:18.873 and 27, June of 2017 when we submitted them 43:18.873 --> 43:21.040 for classification review. 43:21.315 --> 43:23.490 - [Carol] How can it be that there's a document 43:23.490 --> 43:27.572 that you didn't see and the prosecution didn't see 43:27.572 --> 43:29.655 and the judge didn't see? 43:33.046 --> 43:36.363 - I'll use the analogy the last time that it came up, 43:36.363 --> 43:39.030 when it came up around the ACCM. 43:40.745 --> 43:44.412 In addition to ordinary secret or top secret 43:47.569 --> 43:51.045 security clearances, there are compartments. 43:51.045 --> 43:54.582 There's both a need to know aspect of that compartment, 43:54.582 --> 43:58.655 which is somebody has to decide that I as defense counsel 43:58.655 --> 44:02.299 or someone else has a need to know that information. 44:02.299 --> 44:04.530 But then there's also an administrative part of it. 44:04.530 --> 44:06.559 Like you technically have to get a briefing 44:06.559 --> 44:08.710 and sometimes sign another paper. 44:08.710 --> 44:11.224 So one of the ways that it could happen 44:11.224 --> 44:15.224 is if the judge just hadn't has his read on yet. 44:15.313 --> 44:17.622 To my knowledge, that's not what happened here, 44:17.622 --> 44:19.532 but that's a way that it could happen. 44:19.532 --> 44:20.365 - Carol] That's my question. 44:20.365 --> 44:23.517 How could it be that when you are read onto a program, 44:23.517 --> 44:27.684 the judge in your case isn't automatically read on? 44:27.950 --> 44:29.391 - It sounds like a good idea, 44:29.391 --> 44:32.308 but I guess nobody worked that out. 44:34.825 --> 44:36.854 Terry? - Yeah, Terry McDermott, 44:36.854 --> 44:39.646 with Huffington Post, did you finish 44:39.646 --> 44:42.372 the discussion, the arguments, over 425 44:42.372 --> 44:44.186 in closed session? - Yes, yes, we did. 44:44.186 --> 44:45.951 - [Terry] So he took it all under advisement? 44:45.951 --> 44:47.618 - Yes. - Did he rule? 44:48.355 --> 44:50.958 - No (laughs), I laugh only because 44:50.958 --> 44:53.458 he never rules from the bench. 44:54.104 --> 44:55.771 No, he did not rule. 44:59.100 --> 44:59.933 Yes? 45:01.423 --> 45:03.908 - [Amanda] Amanda McAllister, La Crosse Tribune. 45:03.908 --> 45:05.725 What is your opinion on the feasibility 45:05.725 --> 45:09.892 of the government's proposed trial scheduling order? 45:09.913 --> 45:11.954 - The military judge made clear 45:11.954 --> 45:15.334 that he is not adopting the government's trial scheduling 45:15.334 --> 45:17.510 order as it's currently proposed. 45:17.510 --> 45:20.427 Their trial scheduling order relies 45:20.668 --> 45:22.740 on a series of milestones. 45:22.740 --> 45:25.440 The first of which is that all legal motions 45:25.440 --> 45:28.440 would be due on 22, September, 2017. 45:28.744 --> 45:31.843 The judge made clear that he was not adopting 45:31.843 --> 45:35.260 that milestone, which means that the rest 45:36.608 --> 45:39.978 of the milestones also will not be adopted. 45:39.978 --> 45:41.506 That doesn't mean that at some point, 45:41.506 --> 45:42.987 there's not going to be a trial 45:42.987 --> 45:45.503 conduct order setting milestones. 45:45.503 --> 45:49.039 And what I understood the judge to say was that in October, 45:49.039 --> 45:51.637 we would be having a more detailed conversation, 45:51.637 --> 45:54.927 which I took to mean, for my own preparation, 45:54.927 --> 45:58.844 that I should be prepared to discuss milestones 45:58.906 --> 46:03.073 that I think would be realistic heading toward a trial date. 46:05.165 --> 46:06.415 Yes, Fionnuala. 46:08.909 --> 46:11.058 - [Fionnuala] Fionnuala Ni Aolain from Just Security 46:11.058 --> 46:12.725 and I'm Irish Radio. 46:12.987 --> 46:15.320 I guess I had two questions. 46:16.161 --> 46:20.155 One was just if you would comment in the discussion 46:20.155 --> 46:24.322 around subject matter jurisdiction and the commencement 46:24.948 --> 46:28.115 of hostilities, the relevance of that. 46:28.172 --> 46:30.688 There's a marked difference between the experts 46:30.688 --> 46:32.568 that have been called by the government, 46:32.568 --> 46:34.602 or may be called by the government, 46:34.602 --> 46:35.764 and the list of experts that 46:35.764 --> 46:37.381 have been called by the defense. 46:37.381 --> 46:40.245 Could you comment on the difference? 46:40.245 --> 46:41.912 - Yes, two comments. 46:42.117 --> 46:44.867 The first is that the government, 46:47.036 --> 46:50.119 in litigation, had a very aggressive, 46:51.276 --> 46:54.083 I won't say fringe, but I will say aggressive position 46:54.083 --> 46:58.000 on subject matter versus personal jurisdiction. 46:58.099 --> 47:01.021 The Nashiri case from the Court of Military Commission 47:01.021 --> 47:05.188 Review last year said that the subject matter jurisdiction, 47:06.125 --> 47:08.415 that is whether the crime occurred associated 47:08.415 --> 47:10.656 with and in the context of hostilities, 47:10.656 --> 47:14.656 was a question for a panel to decide at a trial. 47:16.029 --> 47:19.012 And looking at the text of the Military Commissions Act, 47:19.012 --> 47:21.699 that's a very reasonable conclusion. 47:21.699 --> 47:24.616 The personal jurisdiction, however, 47:24.731 --> 47:28.731 I heard General Martins say that 948 Alpha seven 47:29.815 --> 47:32.621 is not personal jurisdiction, but Congress thought it was 47:32.621 --> 47:36.788 personal jurisdiction and established three categories 47:36.985 --> 47:39.779 by which a person could come under the jurisdiction 47:39.779 --> 47:42.029 of the military commission. 47:42.190 --> 47:45.645 Traditionally known as personal jurisdiction. 47:45.645 --> 47:48.225 Those are either engaged in hostilities 47:48.225 --> 47:50.924 against the United States, materially supported hostilities 47:50.924 --> 47:52.923 against the United States, or was a member 47:52.923 --> 47:56.173 of Al Qaeda at the time of the offense. 47:57.778 --> 48:00.426 Terry, you asked is there a primmer 48:00.426 --> 48:01.741 on this somewhere out there? 48:01.741 --> 48:03.414 And in fact, there is. 48:03.414 --> 48:06.864 502 India was the judges ruling on this topic 48:06.864 --> 48:08.183 and I think he got it right. 48:08.183 --> 48:12.122 He laid out the distinction between personal jurisdiction, 48:12.122 --> 48:15.253 which is decided by a judge under a preponderance 48:15.253 --> 48:18.439 of the evidence standard and subject matter jurisdiction, 48:18.439 --> 48:20.155 which, under the Military Commissions Act, 48:20.155 --> 48:24.322 is decided by a panel, by beyond a reasonable doubt. 48:24.933 --> 48:26.914 So it's really two separate inquiries 48:26.914 --> 48:29.331 into a very similar question. 48:29.606 --> 48:31.488 And it's not super long, 48:31.488 --> 48:34.301 it's clear, it's easy to understand, 48:34.301 --> 48:36.301 and I'll tweet it later. 48:37.784 --> 48:41.951 Because it's already been released on the website. 48:42.709 --> 48:45.742 I think the judge has it right on personal jurisdiction. 48:45.742 --> 48:48.825 I think that what he intends to begin 48:50.083 --> 48:52.666 hearing argument on in October, 48:52.831 --> 48:54.693 assuming everything gets worked out with the pleadings, 48:54.693 --> 48:57.360 and then evidence on in December 48:59.473 --> 49:03.034 is correctly considered personal jurisdiction now. 49:03.034 --> 49:04.334 You had a second part of your question, 49:04.334 --> 49:06.146 which was about armed conflict. 49:06.146 --> 49:09.789 The, at least two, and it's our position, three, 49:09.789 --> 49:13.706 although I acknowledge that it's not as textual 49:13.869 --> 49:17.619 as the other two, at least two of those bases 49:17.625 --> 49:20.849 for personal jurisdiction require hostilities. 49:20.849 --> 49:23.935 That is a conflict subject to the law of war. 49:23.935 --> 49:26.504 And so there very much has to be a question 49:26.504 --> 49:28.504 of do hostilities exist? 49:30.165 --> 49:33.090 And at what time did they begin to exist? 49:33.090 --> 49:35.340 Because that's how a person 49:37.467 --> 49:39.935 comes under the jurisdiction of a military commission. 49:39.935 --> 49:41.983 So our position is very clearly 49:41.983 --> 49:44.066 that on 7, October, 2001, 49:45.179 --> 49:46.987 when Operation Enduring Freedom began 49:46.987 --> 49:49.487 is when the hostilities began. 49:52.936 --> 49:56.199 In these witnesses that we keep talking about, 49:56.199 --> 49:59.836 what we hope to do is to call many of the government 49:59.836 --> 50:02.764 leaders in the military and then civilian leaders, 50:02.764 --> 50:05.514 who were actually involved in the 50:07.239 --> 50:09.536 planning for hostilities, who were actually involved 50:09.536 --> 50:11.647 in covert action, who were actually involved 50:11.647 --> 50:15.814 in the decisions that both the Clinton administration 50:16.085 --> 50:17.851 and the Bush administration were making 50:17.851 --> 50:21.999 around the United States vision with Al Qaeda to talk about, 50:21.999 --> 50:24.369 yet, well, here's what we were actually doing, 50:24.369 --> 50:26.281 and then the judge will make a legal decision 50:26.281 --> 50:30.281 as to whether that counts as hostilities as not. 50:33.202 --> 50:35.369 - [Terry] Quick follow up. 50:39.007 --> 50:40.507 If I could follow. 50:41.323 --> 50:45.490 Does the fact that some of the evidence cited as hostilities 50:45.758 --> 50:48.675 having begun prior to the invasion, 50:50.040 --> 50:51.957 going back to '96, '98. 50:51.982 --> 50:53.862 - Sure, you can take it back to '88, if you want. 50:53.862 --> 50:55.535 - [Terry] Yeah, but say '98. 50:55.535 --> 50:56.941 The embassy bombings. 50:56.941 --> 51:00.556 Does the fact that those, the alleged perpetrators of those 51:00.556 --> 51:03.286 were tied in non-military commission, 51:03.286 --> 51:05.953 tried in federal district court. 51:05.963 --> 51:07.380 Does that matter? 51:07.636 --> 51:08.884 - It does, actually. 51:08.884 --> 51:10.785 So our position is there are 51:10.785 --> 51:13.618 five dimensions of national power. 51:14.635 --> 51:18.802 Diplomatic, economic, criminal, military and intelligence. 51:21.283 --> 51:24.866 Up until between, after August 20th of 1998 51:26.574 --> 51:30.741 and before 7, October of 2001, the United States deployed 51:32.451 --> 51:36.618 all of those dimensions of national power, except military. 51:36.744 --> 51:39.396 It used its intelligence forces against Al Qaeda. 51:39.396 --> 51:42.625 It had economic sanctions against Al Qaeda. 51:42.625 --> 51:44.795 It had diplomatic efforts in Afghanistan 51:44.795 --> 51:46.362 and Pakistan against Al Qaeda. 51:46.362 --> 51:49.352 And it had criminal proceedings against 51:49.352 --> 51:51.675 members of Al Qaeda, such as those involved 51:51.675 --> 51:53.674 in the 1998 embassy bombings. 51:53.674 --> 51:56.007 So absolutely it does matter 51:56.016 --> 51:59.730 that the United States made a political decision 51:59.730 --> 52:02.980 to exercise its criminal, intelligence, 52:04.504 --> 52:08.671 economic and diplomatic power, but not its military power. 52:08.820 --> 52:10.650 That is a key component of determining 52:10.650 --> 52:13.567 whether hostilities existed or not. 52:14.205 --> 52:15.542 - [Fionnuala] Can I just follow up on that 52:15.542 --> 52:18.625 specific area, and it's not relevant, 52:18.779 --> 52:19.946 I asked the General this question. 52:19.946 --> 52:22.942 It's not necessarily relevant to this specificity 52:22.942 --> 52:26.087 of the trial but are there broader legal consequences? 52:26.087 --> 52:28.468 And will you be arguing the downstream effects 52:28.468 --> 52:32.195 of reinterpretation or a different interpretation 52:32.195 --> 52:35.533 of the start of hostilities that might be generally 52:35.533 --> 52:38.255 agreed perhaps by US allies and others? 52:38.255 --> 52:40.236 - Right, that is clearly an issue 52:40.236 --> 52:44.403 that has come up in the wake of post 9/11 changes. 52:45.436 --> 52:48.187 The 2002 Bush Memorandum on the application 52:48.187 --> 52:51.166 of the Geneva Conventions is the most obvious, 52:51.166 --> 52:55.333 got mostly reeled back by the Supreme Court in Hamdan, 52:56.188 --> 52:58.735 but not 100%, so clearly there have been 52:58.735 --> 53:00.853 a lot of divergence between the United States 53:00.853 --> 53:05.020 and its allies on key elements on the laws of war. 53:05.172 --> 53:09.172 Including application of the Geneva Conventions. 53:11.957 --> 53:14.554 I will acknowledge there seem to be schools of thought 53:14.554 --> 53:18.342 on the question of when did hostilities begin? 53:18.342 --> 53:20.365 You and I talked the other day about our position 53:20.365 --> 53:22.310 is in some ways more conservative 53:22.310 --> 53:24.977 than parts of the ICRC position. 53:26.571 --> 53:30.259 So yes, it is important for two different reasons. 53:30.259 --> 53:33.258 First, in an area that's way above my pay grade, 53:33.258 --> 53:35.815 it is important to our relationship with our allies, 53:35.815 --> 53:38.863 working together on intelligence and military operations. 53:38.863 --> 53:41.113 But it also matters because 53:42.489 --> 53:45.118 all of this is retroactive application. 53:45.118 --> 53:47.803 The military commissions are in many ways 53:47.803 --> 53:51.281 taking post-September 11th military thinking 53:51.281 --> 53:55.114 and trying to apply that to pre-September 11th 53:55.236 --> 53:57.652 alleged criminal conduct by the defendants. 53:57.652 --> 53:59.952 So it has ex post facto problems. 53:59.952 --> 54:03.035 It has principle of legality problems 54:03.126 --> 54:06.209 that apply to jurisdiction as well as 54:06.338 --> 54:08.838 to other elements of the case. 54:11.734 --> 54:12.901 Anything else? 54:13.678 --> 54:17.095 No, okay, great, thank you all very much. 54:20.836 --> 54:24.031 - Hi, I'm David Nevin, I'm one of the lawyers 54:24.031 --> 54:25.820 representing Mr. Mohammed. 54:25.820 --> 54:28.320 And before you ask a question, 54:29.145 --> 54:32.409 I will just say that I share what Mr. Connell said 54:32.409 --> 54:34.697 a little while ago about our appreciation 54:34.697 --> 54:37.881 for the opportunity to meet with victim family members 54:37.881 --> 54:41.214 this week, as always, very interesting, 54:42.452 --> 54:45.202 informative, helpful to us and we 54:46.960 --> 54:50.108 very much appreciate that opportunity. 54:50.108 --> 54:50.941 So, Carol? 54:51.547 --> 54:55.380 - [Carol] I had two quick, perhaps, questions. 54:55.464 --> 54:58.895 One is, we were kicking around in the room, 54:58.895 --> 55:02.145 when you asked to abate versus dismiss, 55:03.157 --> 55:05.074 what's the distinction? 55:05.306 --> 55:08.572 - Yeah, I'm not sure there is a practical distinction 55:08.572 --> 55:11.489 for where are in these proceedings. 55:13.300 --> 55:16.800 The rule does provide that in the case of, 55:18.827 --> 55:22.994 under certain circumstances that are in play in 425, 55:23.667 --> 55:27.834 the motion to recuse, that the remedy is abatement. 55:30.134 --> 55:32.717 That's the way the argument is, 55:35.053 --> 55:37.432 that's the way the argument advances. 55:37.432 --> 55:38.887 - [Carol] So should you prevail, 55:38.887 --> 55:40.224 and both the judge step down 55:40.224 --> 55:42.209 and the prosecution get fired, 55:42.209 --> 55:45.611 it would be an opportunity to bring in a new cast. 55:45.611 --> 55:49.741 - Yeah, I take it that would be one potential remedy. 55:49.741 --> 55:52.439 And I suspect that would be subject to litigation as well, 55:52.439 --> 55:54.606 but, yeah, that's correct. 55:56.437 --> 55:58.024 - [Carol] And my other question is, 55:58.024 --> 56:01.024 based on today's arguments in court, 56:01.425 --> 56:03.242 and I hope you can answer this. 56:03.242 --> 56:07.381 President Barrack Obama ordered these black sites closed. 56:07.381 --> 56:09.358 How did this one survive? 56:09.358 --> 56:12.775 - I don't know the answer to that, sorry. 56:17.598 --> 56:20.053 - [John] The government just provided us with the summary 56:20.053 --> 56:23.886 of the RDI information that is either with you 56:24.523 --> 56:28.023 or on its way to the teams and you and Jay 56:28.687 --> 56:31.102 had argued in court today about how 56:31.102 --> 56:34.019 the significance of the 505 process 56:34.189 --> 56:38.272 and that there was no motion for reconsideration. 56:38.438 --> 56:42.605 But the RDI material was provided through the 505 process. 56:44.472 --> 56:48.008 Is it still your contention that you can seek 56:48.008 --> 56:50.925 additional information beyond that, 56:51.065 --> 56:54.255 even though this motion for reconsideration 56:54.255 --> 56:56.088 issue is part of that? 56:56.830 --> 56:59.379 - I take it that becomes an open question, 56:59.379 --> 57:03.462 because you might remember that in the 164 series 57:04.982 --> 57:07.499 of motions, we litigated the question 57:07.499 --> 57:09.749 of whether that limitation, 57:12.157 --> 57:14.525 forbidding motions to reconsider, 57:14.525 --> 57:16.442 whether that was constitutional. 57:16.442 --> 57:18.655 And we argued that it wasn't. 57:18.655 --> 57:20.738 And one of the ways that, 57:21.175 --> 57:24.342 the motion ended up not being granted, 57:24.713 --> 57:27.127 but part of the reason that it was not granted 57:27.127 --> 57:30.800 was that the prosecution agreed and stipulated 57:30.800 --> 57:33.635 that we would be permitted to file motions 57:33.635 --> 57:37.802 to compel discovery, which would have much the same effect. 57:38.782 --> 57:42.568 So that as opposed to saying we ask you to reconsider 57:42.568 --> 57:46.563 your finding about the adequacy of a substitution, 57:46.563 --> 57:50.233 we're now going to file a motion to compel additional 57:50.233 --> 57:52.726 discovery on this same subject. 57:52.726 --> 57:55.317 And that would allow us to make the case 57:55.317 --> 57:58.365 that something significant had been missed 57:58.365 --> 57:59.931 the first time around. 57:59.931 --> 58:03.014 With that gloss, the limitation would 58:04.775 --> 58:07.287 be treated as being constitutional. 58:07.287 --> 58:10.120 The problem with this is that both 58:10.512 --> 58:14.521 Mr. Connell and I, over the course of this litigation, 58:14.521 --> 58:16.369 have asked to have people speak. 58:16.369 --> 58:20.202 Have asked to have expert witnesses appointed, 58:20.294 --> 58:22.198 who would speak to the question 58:22.198 --> 58:24.674 of the adequacy of the substitution here. 58:24.674 --> 58:28.841 And we were denied that opportunity on the grounds that 58:29.143 --> 58:33.310 one is not permitted to make a motion for reconsideration. 58:33.694 --> 58:35.251 Therefore, there was nothing for those 58:35.251 --> 58:39.051 expert witnesses to do and so, request denied. 58:39.051 --> 58:43.218 Which raises the question, what about the ruling in 164? 58:44.485 --> 58:46.177 And it suggests that it's no longer 58:46.177 --> 58:48.477 good law in the judge's mind. 58:48.477 --> 58:51.684 And that will lead to additional litigation 58:51.684 --> 58:55.851 or it may lead to orders being entered in the 425 series. 59:00.976 --> 59:01.959 Others? - Hi. 59:01.959 --> 59:03.324 - Oh, hi, yeah. - Margot Williams. 59:03.324 --> 59:04.749 - Hey, Margot. - With the Intercept. 59:04.749 --> 59:07.356 I just have a quick facto question, 59:07.356 --> 59:09.596 we were talking about in our room. 59:09.596 --> 59:13.513 And that is, you have this video representation 59:14.652 --> 59:17.902 substitution and when did you get that? 59:19.089 --> 59:22.506 We couldn't figure out in the chronology, 59:22.568 --> 59:24.142 when you received it. 59:24.142 --> 59:27.748 - Right, if I speak of video one and video two, 59:27.748 --> 59:29.352 will that make sense to you? 59:29.352 --> 59:32.692 And we have video two, but we don't have video one. 59:32.692 --> 59:36.480 And we don't, of course, have the black site, either. 59:36.480 --> 59:38.563 And we received video two 59:40.343 --> 59:43.351 about six months after Mr. Connell did 59:43.351 --> 59:45.000 because there was, you may remember, 59:45.000 --> 59:47.872 there was an issue with we had some problems 59:47.872 --> 59:51.207 with signing the memorandum of understanding, 59:51.207 --> 59:55.069 having to do with dissemination of classified information. 59:55.069 --> 59:57.369 And Mr. Connell made a decision to sign it 59:57.369 --> 01:00:00.332 at an earlier time, we signed it at a later time. 01:00:00.332 --> 01:00:02.641 And after we did that, then the government 01:00:02.641 --> 01:00:05.224 provided the information to us. 01:00:09.697 --> 01:00:12.530 It would have been in December of, 01:00:14.140 --> 01:00:16.286 it would have been in November, 01:00:16.286 --> 01:00:18.953 or December, excuse me, of 2015. 01:00:21.429 --> 01:00:23.450 And it's also entirely possible 01:00:23.450 --> 01:00:25.582 that what I just said is incorrect. 01:00:25.582 --> 01:00:28.023 (reporters laughing) 01:00:28.023 --> 01:00:31.190 Unlike normally, the way I say things. 01:00:31.736 --> 01:00:34.078 But I'd be happy to double check that for you, 01:00:34.078 --> 01:00:35.665 if that would be useful to you. 01:00:35.665 --> 01:00:37.504 - [Carol] So I just wanted to follow up. 01:00:37.504 --> 01:00:39.835 So the issues becomes when you triangulate 01:00:39.835 --> 01:00:41.994 and realize that that's the same thing 01:00:41.994 --> 01:00:45.583 that they haven't notified of you of the destruction. 01:00:45.583 --> 01:00:48.333 - Wait, would you say that again? 01:00:49.473 --> 01:00:52.042 - [Carol] So the issue becomes that you haven't been 01:00:52.042 --> 01:00:54.537 able to triangulate and realize that this piece 01:00:54.537 --> 01:00:57.537 of evidence you've been given before 01:00:57.744 --> 01:01:01.911 correlates to the notification of the agreement to destroy. 01:01:06.883 --> 01:01:10.339 - There definitely is a triangulation problem here. 01:01:10.339 --> 01:01:13.006 And there's no doubt about that. 01:01:13.149 --> 01:01:14.573 I'm not sure I completely understand 01:01:14.573 --> 01:01:17.490 the question you're asking, though. 01:01:17.580 --> 01:01:20.080 Because there are a number of, 01:01:21.752 --> 01:01:23.993 the way discovery is produced here 01:01:23.993 --> 01:01:26.290 is atypical in my experience in that 01:01:26.290 --> 01:01:28.728 it is not always directly clear 01:01:28.728 --> 01:01:30.806 exactly what the government is responding to 01:01:30.806 --> 01:01:33.491 when they provide materials in discovery. 01:01:33.491 --> 01:01:37.158 And triangulating back to what one asked for 01:01:38.794 --> 01:01:42.711 and what the material provided is responding to 01:01:44.547 --> 01:01:48.242 can often be difficult, if that's your question. 01:01:48.242 --> 01:01:52.409 - [Carol] But do you know when your delivered this video to 01:01:52.726 --> 01:01:55.476 that the protected order has been 01:01:58.431 --> 01:01:59.348 AE80, AE80? 01:02:04.029 --> 01:02:05.070 That the protective order on 01:02:05.070 --> 01:02:07.891 the black sites has been canceled? 01:02:07.891 --> 01:02:09.667 That my triangulation point. 01:02:09.667 --> 01:02:10.788 - Oh, I see what you're saying. 01:02:10.788 --> 01:02:12.705 No, no, no, not at all. 01:02:14.820 --> 01:02:17.374 Those two events are unconnected, 01:02:17.374 --> 01:02:21.541 and there definitely an absence of triangulation there. 01:02:26.710 --> 01:02:28.112 We don't learn the details 01:02:28.112 --> 01:02:31.612 of the destruction until February of 2016. 01:02:34.055 --> 01:02:36.805 And we learn in December of 2015, 01:02:40.219 --> 01:02:43.719 we get an equivocal remark suggesting that 01:02:46.909 --> 01:02:50.742 further inquiry about going to see black sites 01:02:51.024 --> 01:02:54.774 has been overtaken by events, but that's all. 01:02:56.388 --> 01:02:57.671 - [Terry] Can you characterize the difference between 01:02:57.671 --> 01:02:59.671 video one and video two? 01:03:00.634 --> 01:03:03.967 - No, I can't, I haven't seen video one. 01:03:04.337 --> 01:03:08.420 - [Terry] But in terms of, you had an expectation 01:03:08.767 --> 01:03:11.434 of how fulsome it would be, yes? 01:03:14.064 --> 01:03:17.314 - I have the material in footnote seven 01:03:18.527 --> 01:03:20.444 of a pleading that was, 01:03:24.627 --> 01:03:27.163 I have some information about it. 01:03:27.163 --> 01:03:28.398 Let's put it that way. 01:03:28.398 --> 01:03:31.148 I have some information about it. 01:03:31.285 --> 01:03:35.368 But nothing like, we haven't been able to see it, 01:03:35.382 --> 01:03:39.549 so therefore, are not in position to communicate about it, 01:03:39.614 --> 01:03:41.852 or to try to understand it. 01:03:41.852 --> 01:03:43.130 - [Terry] This is a small point, 01:03:43.130 --> 01:03:44.189 but did you actually say to Carol 01:03:44.189 --> 01:03:45.679 that when you get discovery, 01:03:45.679 --> 01:03:49.096 you don't know what's it's a response to? 01:03:49.258 --> 01:03:50.704 - Yeah. - It's not marked? 01:03:50.704 --> 01:03:53.381 - It's very common that discovery 01:03:53.381 --> 01:03:57.131 is simply provided without a clear indication 01:03:57.835 --> 01:04:01.286 of how it connects to the specific requests 01:04:01.286 --> 01:04:02.953 that have been made. 01:04:03.211 --> 01:04:07.139 - [John] So in this situation, when you got video two, 01:04:07.139 --> 01:04:09.757 did you think it was a black site 01:04:09.757 --> 01:04:13.048 and that the litigation pending in the other series 01:04:13.048 --> 01:04:16.131 was a second black site, essentially? 01:04:17.567 --> 01:04:21.734 - I can't speak to what my reaction was at the time. 01:04:25.876 --> 01:04:27.642 (report speaking off microphone) 01:04:27.642 --> 01:04:31.809 (laughs) Well, partially, probably. 01:04:32.346 --> 01:04:33.679 Other questions? 01:04:34.409 --> 01:04:35.742 Okay, thank you. 01:04:40.878 --> 01:04:42.187 - Good afternoon, everyone. 01:04:42.187 --> 01:04:44.015 I'm Dominy McDonald and I work for the Victim/Witness 01:04:44.015 --> 01:04:47.122 Assistance Program Office of Military Commissions. 01:04:47.122 --> 01:04:49.789 First I would like to thank all the service members, 01:04:49.789 --> 01:04:53.328 the civilians and all those who make this program possible. 01:04:53.328 --> 01:04:55.548 To get our folks on the island to be able 01:04:55.548 --> 01:04:56.749 to watch these proceedings. 01:04:56.749 --> 01:04:58.426 So our hats off to them, they do a wonderful job 01:04:58.426 --> 01:05:00.962 and we couldn't do it without them. 01:05:00.962 --> 01:05:03.953 First, I'm going to introduce all our family members 01:05:03.953 --> 01:05:06.980 and our survivor and then they'll make their statements. 01:05:06.980 --> 01:05:09.024 And then we'll go into questioning. 01:05:09.024 --> 01:05:11.774 First I have Vera and Gil Aranow. 01:05:13.896 --> 01:05:18.063 They lost their brother Richard in the North Tower. 01:05:19.035 --> 01:05:20.535 I have Ellen Judd. 01:05:20.951 --> 01:05:23.068 Ellen's with her brother, Brian, 01:05:23.068 --> 01:05:26.025 and lost her spouse, Christine Egan. 01:05:26.025 --> 01:05:29.525 And Christine was lost in the South Tower. 01:05:31.340 --> 01:05:33.757 I have Meena and Neel Jerath. 01:05:35.856 --> 01:05:39.606 They lost husband and father Prem Nath Jerath 01:05:41.055 --> 01:05:42.638 in the North Tower. 01:05:44.257 --> 01:05:47.674 And then last I have Charles Kaczorowski. 01:05:49.877 --> 01:05:52.283 Charlie here is a Vietnam vet 01:05:52.283 --> 01:05:54.782 and survivor from the 9/11 attack. 01:05:54.782 --> 01:05:58.949 Ladies and gentlemen, the survivor and families of 9/11. 01:06:02.662 --> 01:06:04.745 - Thanks, Mac, pardon me, 01:06:05.015 --> 01:06:08.682 I've got a couple of notes on my phone here. 01:06:14.315 --> 01:06:18.148 Good afternoon, I just have a short statement. 01:06:18.529 --> 01:06:22.362 These thoughts are my own, not anybody else's. 01:06:25.056 --> 01:06:27.056 My heart's still broken. 01:06:28.022 --> 01:06:29.605 My soul is wounded. 01:06:29.733 --> 01:06:33.733 The murder of my brother and almost 3,000 others 01:06:34.124 --> 01:06:37.791 is 16 years old and it feels like yesterday. 01:06:40.305 --> 01:06:42.888 I'm still angry, I'm still sad. 01:06:44.359 --> 01:06:47.634 In my fantasy world, we could everybody back. 01:06:47.634 --> 01:06:49.717 But that's not realistic. 01:06:52.431 --> 01:06:55.152 My hope is that these commission hearings 01:06:55.152 --> 01:06:59.319 can bring us some measure, eventually get to trial, 01:06:59.769 --> 01:07:03.352 bring us some measure of justice and peace. 01:07:03.641 --> 01:07:07.224 To my family, to all the victims' families. 01:07:07.627 --> 01:07:09.006 It's too late for my parents, 01:07:09.006 --> 01:07:11.254 who have died in the last 16 years, 01:07:11.254 --> 01:07:15.421 but maybe in the next world they can have some peace, too. 01:07:17.019 --> 01:07:18.757 I never expected to be here. 01:07:18.757 --> 01:07:20.533 I raised my hand a couple of years ago 01:07:20.533 --> 01:07:23.713 when I got the email saying the victims' family members 01:07:23.713 --> 01:07:27.546 can enter a lottery and go down to Guantanamo. 01:07:29.793 --> 01:07:31.210 It's been surreal 01:07:32.126 --> 01:07:33.543 and overwhelming. 01:07:42.137 --> 01:07:44.673 Everyone has been careful to thank all of the service 01:07:44.673 --> 01:07:48.840 people, all of the service members and civilians who take 01:07:49.589 --> 01:07:53.756 care of us, in particular the victims' family members unit. 01:07:55.975 --> 01:07:58.392 They've been wonderful to us. 01:08:03.024 --> 01:08:04.941 I'm genuinely grateful. 01:08:10.753 --> 01:08:13.116 The emotion, I'd say, traveling around with this group 01:08:13.116 --> 01:08:17.283 that's here and some of the others who aren't here, 01:08:19.699 --> 01:08:22.782 it's been 24/7 for a week. 01:08:24.842 --> 01:08:28.675 And it's been a dip in the pool of heartbreak. 01:08:28.938 --> 01:08:33.021 And you can't imagine it until you experience it. 01:08:33.621 --> 01:08:36.452 And I don't mean that, sorry, I really should say, 01:08:36.452 --> 01:08:38.475 I don't mean that's a sad thing. 01:08:38.475 --> 01:08:41.058 This is a group of people that, 01:08:45.575 --> 01:08:46.973 it's really the opposite. 01:08:46.973 --> 01:08:50.056 It's a wonderful thing, in some ways. 01:08:50.141 --> 01:08:53.389 I feel like I've bonded with distant relatives. 01:08:53.389 --> 01:08:56.195 That's maybe the best analogy I can come up with. 01:08:56.195 --> 01:09:00.158 We have a common bond that unites us but we never wanted it. 01:09:00.158 --> 01:09:03.491 But we've been given a gift in that way. 01:09:05.038 --> 01:09:07.033 Because we have each other. 01:09:07.033 --> 01:09:08.366 It's not lonely. 01:09:10.491 --> 01:09:11.380 I want to say a couple of things 01:09:11.380 --> 01:09:15.250 about General Martins and the prosecution team. 01:09:15.250 --> 01:09:17.474 I understand we're here as their guests 01:09:17.474 --> 01:09:20.474 and they have been consummate hosts. 01:09:21.877 --> 01:09:25.794 Really just unbelievable, giving of their time. 01:09:29.537 --> 01:09:32.370 I do have to say that Karen Loftus 01:09:34.350 --> 01:09:37.767 and her staff have gotten me up too early 01:09:38.287 --> 01:09:40.704 to go do PT, have overfed me, 01:09:42.416 --> 01:09:45.476 all right, maybe I had some choice in that matter. 01:09:45.476 --> 01:09:49.356 But beyond that, I know I thanked them once already, 01:09:49.356 --> 01:09:51.856 but I can't thank them enough. 01:09:52.187 --> 01:09:54.193 And I can't thank them enough because, 01:09:54.193 --> 01:09:55.557 and I know you know this, 01:09:55.557 --> 01:09:57.353 most of you probably know this already, 01:09:57.353 --> 01:10:00.103 but they believe in this mission. 01:10:02.664 --> 01:10:04.348 They are retirement eligible. 01:10:04.348 --> 01:10:07.310 Some of them have, in fact, retired and come back. 01:10:07.310 --> 01:10:09.560 They don't have to be here. 01:10:10.529 --> 01:10:13.093 But that genuine caring and respect 01:10:13.093 --> 01:10:16.300 and belief in the mission comes through 01:10:16.300 --> 01:10:17.836 in everything they do with us. 01:10:17.836 --> 01:10:21.169 And I feel it every minute of every day. 01:10:21.909 --> 01:10:23.242 So thanks again. 01:10:25.443 --> 01:10:29.047 And as I was saying, to the General and members of his team, 01:10:29.047 --> 01:10:31.136 they took a large amount of time, 01:10:31.136 --> 01:10:34.136 no question was too silly, too hard, 01:10:35.632 --> 01:10:37.882 and they answered them all. 01:10:39.314 --> 01:10:42.064 With reasoned, clear, thoughtful, 01:10:43.347 --> 01:10:46.347 thought-provoking, frankly, answers. 01:10:47.549 --> 01:10:51.466 And I feel like we could not have a better team 01:10:51.996 --> 01:10:55.746 fighting for justice for our lost loved ones. 01:10:56.274 --> 01:10:59.441 They're capably wrestling with complex 01:10:59.462 --> 01:11:02.212 and cutting-edge historic issues. 01:11:03.228 --> 01:11:07.395 World class, and we're blessed to have them on our side. 01:11:09.475 --> 01:11:11.015 We're also provided the opportunity, 01:11:11.015 --> 01:11:15.182 as I'm sure you know, to meet with the defense team. 01:11:16.145 --> 01:11:20.312 That may have been the hardest part of the week for me. 01:11:20.835 --> 01:11:23.891 I'm a lawyer myself, I have 30 years, plus, 01:11:23.891 --> 01:11:27.555 experience in the music business and television business. 01:11:27.555 --> 01:11:30.179 And I have to say, probably politically, I identify 01:11:30.179 --> 01:11:34.346 most closely with the lawyers on the defense team. 01:11:35.557 --> 01:11:37.644 And frankly, my brother, who was also a lawyer, 01:11:37.644 --> 01:11:40.644 I think he would have felt the same. 01:11:42.721 --> 01:11:44.708 And I wish I could be single-minded about this 01:11:44.708 --> 01:11:48.125 and say, prosecution, good, defense, bad. 01:11:48.790 --> 01:11:50.540 It's not that simple. 01:11:52.265 --> 01:11:56.348 I have to be true to myself, my brother's memory. 01:11:56.573 --> 01:12:00.740 But I have to say that every member of the defense team, 01:12:00.781 --> 01:12:03.408 with whom I've met and spoke, and I did speak 01:12:03.408 --> 01:12:07.075 to all of the learn counsel except Mr. Ruiz, 01:12:09.192 --> 01:12:11.692 they've been truly impressive. 01:12:12.758 --> 01:12:16.059 I don't want to sympathize with their cause, 01:12:16.059 --> 01:12:20.090 but I could not help but like them as individuals. 01:12:20.090 --> 01:12:21.673 And as an attorney, 01:12:25.359 --> 01:12:28.568 I'm well aware that there's 200 years of history, 01:12:28.568 --> 01:12:32.735 more than 200 years of history, of the adversarial process. 01:12:33.436 --> 01:12:37.443 And it only works if both sides are capably represented. 01:12:37.443 --> 01:12:40.526 And much to my chagrin, the detainees 01:12:42.436 --> 01:12:44.769 have some excellent lawyers. 01:12:47.018 --> 01:12:50.158 And I didn't really get to meet with or, 01:12:50.158 --> 01:12:52.634 of course, talk to the judiciary or the judge, 01:12:52.634 --> 01:12:55.967 but seeing him in action from the bench, 01:12:59.267 --> 01:13:02.704 dealing with what impresses me even as a lawyer. 01:13:02.704 --> 01:13:04.430 And I can only imagine what a non-lawyer 01:13:04.430 --> 01:13:08.013 sees or feels about this as this organized, 01:13:08.643 --> 01:13:10.976 perhaps choreographed chaos. 01:13:13.361 --> 01:13:17.361 He still seems, he's incredibly impressive, too. 01:13:18.290 --> 01:13:21.478 And I know he, also, well past retirement eligible 01:13:21.478 --> 01:13:23.645 and he has chosen to stay. 01:13:23.823 --> 01:13:26.573 And again, for that, I thank him. 01:13:27.131 --> 01:13:30.464 A trial date would be nice, just saying. 01:13:33.034 --> 01:13:37.201 You all here, in this room, I want to thank you, too. 01:13:37.770 --> 01:13:39.210 Keeping us all in touch with 01:13:39.210 --> 01:13:41.877 what's going on here, from afar. 01:13:43.329 --> 01:13:46.071 Because frankly, I live in New York 01:13:46.071 --> 01:13:48.390 and getting to Fort Hamilton to watch the trial, 01:13:48.390 --> 01:13:51.747 well, I just don't have the time to do it. 01:13:51.747 --> 01:13:54.282 Now I'm sure I will make the time 01:13:54.282 --> 01:13:56.213 to go once or twice, but still, 01:13:56.213 --> 01:13:59.880 it's only a small piece of what's happening. 01:14:01.976 --> 01:14:04.504 In any event, an open trial, that's important. 01:14:04.504 --> 01:14:08.671 The press, I'm grateful to you, what you're doing. 01:14:09.621 --> 01:14:13.109 Especially in, again, these circumstances. 01:14:13.109 --> 01:14:15.626 You know better than I what Guantanamo is like, 01:14:15.626 --> 01:14:18.731 but to me, you're a crucial and integral 01:14:18.731 --> 01:14:22.898 part of the process, so thank you for what you do. 01:14:23.119 --> 01:14:25.219 Especially, I guess, the last point on that 01:14:25.219 --> 01:14:27.489 is that now it's 16 years later, 01:14:27.489 --> 01:14:31.143 there aren't so many people paying as close attention. 01:14:31.143 --> 01:14:33.445 So it's all that much more important. 01:14:33.445 --> 01:14:37.528 And I'm all that much more grateful that you are. 01:14:37.627 --> 01:14:41.794 I don't have to say it, but we should never forget. 01:14:42.396 --> 01:14:44.947 Anyway, where does that leave me? 01:14:44.947 --> 01:14:46.839 And I can tell you about that a little bit 01:14:46.839 --> 01:14:48.756 and then I'll conclude. 01:14:49.758 --> 01:14:52.760 All of those emotions, which I carry around 01:14:52.760 --> 01:14:56.177 with me all the time, I've experienced in 01:15:01.202 --> 01:15:04.535 just unbelievable proportions this week. 01:15:06.634 --> 01:15:10.801 Not withstanding all of the pain and anger and heartbreak, 01:15:11.435 --> 01:15:14.215 I've also felt gratitude and respect 01:15:14.215 --> 01:15:16.226 and admiration for the people who have 01:15:16.226 --> 01:15:18.441 dedicated their time and energy, 01:15:18.441 --> 01:15:21.047 indeed their lives, to making this difficult, 01:15:21.047 --> 01:15:24.297 sometimes unsatisfactory, process real. 01:15:24.541 --> 01:15:25.572 And make it work. 01:15:25.572 --> 01:15:28.489 It's flawed, but it's what we have. 01:15:30.110 --> 01:15:31.900 And with the world watching and our fellow 01:15:31.900 --> 01:15:34.715 family members watching and survivors watching, 01:15:34.715 --> 01:15:36.832 it's my sincere wish that it proceed to 01:15:36.832 --> 01:15:39.632 a conclusion as soon as humanly possible. 01:15:39.632 --> 01:15:41.032 It's an emotional rollercoaster 01:15:41.032 --> 01:15:43.699 that I'd really like to get off. 01:15:47.837 --> 01:15:49.614 If nothing else, if I carry nothing else 01:15:49.614 --> 01:15:52.697 away from this week, it's the people. 01:15:52.777 --> 01:15:56.944 That's been the most impressive thing to me this week. 01:15:56.979 --> 01:15:58.559 I didn't know what it would bring, 01:15:58.559 --> 01:16:02.476 but I've met people who are world class lawyers 01:16:03.457 --> 01:16:06.707 and caregivers and it's been inspiring. 01:16:08.777 --> 01:16:11.120 I aspire to be as good at what I do 01:16:11.120 --> 01:16:13.370 as what all of you do here. 01:16:20.044 --> 01:16:23.801 It's also given me some real insights into who I am, 01:16:23.801 --> 01:16:27.551 who I am, at various points during this week, 01:16:28.798 --> 01:16:32.496 we talked about, serious engaged conversations 01:16:32.496 --> 01:16:34.895 about the law of war, something that 01:16:34.895 --> 01:16:38.395 not anything I ever studied in law school. 01:16:38.871 --> 01:16:42.538 Justifications for torture, what is torture? 01:16:44.006 --> 01:16:46.673 Legitimacy of the death penalty. 01:16:47.202 --> 01:16:49.825 Pro-life movement, I'll connect that one 01:16:49.825 --> 01:16:52.742 for you some other time in private. 01:16:53.763 --> 01:16:56.231 Any number of other challenging subjects. 01:16:56.231 --> 01:16:59.311 And none of us can operate at that level 01:16:59.311 --> 01:17:02.040 all of the time, it's not humanly possible. 01:17:02.040 --> 01:17:03.600 But the folks around here have really shown me 01:17:03.600 --> 01:17:06.361 that they can operate at an incredible high level 01:17:06.361 --> 01:17:09.028 and have unimaginable integrity. 01:17:11.571 --> 01:17:15.738 And I wouldn't have missed this week for anything. 01:17:16.995 --> 01:17:19.828 I pray for justice for my brother. 01:17:19.832 --> 01:17:23.915 All the other victims, please join me, thank you. 01:17:40.142 --> 01:17:42.713 - I would like to begin by expressing my appreciation 01:17:42.713 --> 01:17:45.085 to the Office of Military Commissions and to 01:17:45.085 --> 01:17:49.252 the United States government for giving me the opportunity 01:17:49.526 --> 01:17:53.062 to come here and to see this process in person. 01:17:53.062 --> 01:17:56.021 It's mattered a great deal to be able to come here. 01:17:56.021 --> 01:17:57.676 There a sense in which there's a great deal 01:17:57.676 --> 01:18:00.676 of material that's available online. 01:18:01.217 --> 01:18:04.717 Transcripts, documents, various other ways 01:18:05.416 --> 01:18:07.491 of following some of the events. 01:18:07.491 --> 01:18:11.658 The CCTV sites, but none if it compares with the kind 01:18:12.014 --> 01:18:15.568 of interaction that it's possible to have here with people. 01:18:15.568 --> 01:18:19.271 The support of people in the Office of Military Commissions. 01:18:19.271 --> 01:18:21.501 And everyone that we've encountered here, 01:18:21.501 --> 01:18:23.985 who's helped with our understanding and been 01:18:23.985 --> 01:18:27.985 extremely supportive in every way I can imagine. 01:18:29.493 --> 01:18:31.000 I've been touched a great deal 01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:34.417 by the sensitivity and the concern people 01:18:35.383 --> 01:18:38.216 have given for the people we lost. 01:18:39.166 --> 01:18:42.583 And I might just say a word or two there. 01:18:44.215 --> 01:18:46.561 Christine and Michael, Chris's brother 01:18:46.561 --> 01:18:50.394 was lost together with her in the South Tower, 01:18:50.427 --> 01:18:54.594 gave an inexpressible amount to their family and friends 01:18:54.636 --> 01:18:58.186 and I would just add, what is perhaps easy to appreciate 01:18:58.186 --> 01:19:02.269 at distance, Chris spent a lifetime of dedication 01:19:02.745 --> 01:19:04.822 to delivering healthcare to Inuit 01:19:04.822 --> 01:19:08.410 and First Nations communities in the Canadian North. 01:19:08.410 --> 01:19:12.410 She'll be greatly missed, she is greatly missed. 01:19:13.449 --> 01:19:16.273 Michael was the fire marshal on his floor 01:19:16.273 --> 01:19:20.023 and stayed behind to organize the evacuation. 01:19:20.350 --> 01:19:23.017 And I'm grateful for the concern 01:19:24.211 --> 01:19:27.915 and the warmth of everyone that's been expressed. 01:19:27.915 --> 01:19:29.556 It's been important to me to be able to see 01:19:29.556 --> 01:19:32.550 this process in person and I'm grateful, 01:19:32.550 --> 01:19:35.383 especially to the legal personnel. 01:19:36.825 --> 01:19:39.922 There's an extraordinary expertise here. 01:19:39.922 --> 01:19:44.089 And from the very beginning, before we even left Andrews, 01:19:44.549 --> 01:19:47.395 Ed Ryan and some of the members of his team 01:19:47.395 --> 01:19:51.227 were talking with us and have continued throughout this week 01:19:51.227 --> 01:19:55.144 to help us to understand the particular rulings 01:19:56.160 --> 01:19:59.160 in question, the particular motions. 01:19:59.161 --> 01:20:01.991 And also to talk with us about issues 01:20:01.991 --> 01:20:04.324 that lie behind these cases. 01:20:05.907 --> 01:20:08.194 They, and also the defense team, 01:20:08.194 --> 01:20:11.444 have been extremely generous and expert 01:20:12.209 --> 01:20:16.129 into sharing various aspects of their understandings, 01:20:16.129 --> 01:20:18.352 both in and beyond the courtroom. 01:20:18.352 --> 01:20:21.054 This has helped a great deal in terms of understanding 01:20:21.054 --> 01:20:25.221 both the immediate issues and the long-run issues. 01:20:28.495 --> 01:20:31.834 Among all of the question that were discussed 01:20:31.834 --> 01:20:34.084 in a legal sense this week, 01:20:35.122 --> 01:20:39.289 some of them concerned the death penalty in particular. 01:20:39.898 --> 01:20:42.951 And that is perhaps at the heart of the litigation here, 01:20:42.951 --> 01:20:47.118 because in some senses, there is perhaps less doubt 01:20:47.412 --> 01:20:51.068 about some of the other issues of accountability. 01:20:51.068 --> 01:20:54.029 But what to do about it is still before us. 01:20:54.029 --> 01:20:56.755 It's a matter of life and death for the people 01:20:56.755 --> 01:20:59.186 going to be immediately affected. 01:20:59.186 --> 01:21:02.561 And also more broadly, in terms of setting precedents. 01:21:02.561 --> 01:21:05.103 So let's listen very closely to the legal arguments 01:21:05.103 --> 01:21:09.270 in this area, most of which were related to litigation. 01:21:09.408 --> 01:21:12.058 And I look forward to seeing how this is going to unfold 01:21:12.058 --> 01:21:14.725 as it's still a work in process. 01:21:14.802 --> 01:21:17.643 I think litigation and the question of RDIs 01:21:17.643 --> 01:21:20.001 are extremely important and merit 01:21:20.001 --> 01:21:23.751 the serious attention that they're receiving. 01:21:24.560 --> 01:21:26.477 I would say that I felt 01:21:30.638 --> 01:21:33.451 inexpressibly, deeply, how terrible it is 01:21:33.451 --> 01:21:36.618 to take a human for the last 16 years. 01:21:38.241 --> 01:21:40.352 Before then, I was opposed to the death penalty, 01:21:40.352 --> 01:21:43.435 but I've understood what its totality 01:21:44.048 --> 01:21:47.298 and its unfixability much more strongly 01:21:47.298 --> 01:21:51.048 since I've been closer to the taking of life. 01:21:51.662 --> 01:21:54.685 I'm unwilling to be part of an act of killing 01:21:54.685 --> 01:21:57.018 or to endorse it in any way. 01:21:57.302 --> 01:21:59.520 I don't see this as being in any way, 01:21:59.520 --> 01:22:02.664 an issue of self-defense, when it's a question of taking 01:22:02.664 --> 01:22:06.762 the life of somebody who's already in secure custody. 01:22:06.762 --> 01:22:10.572 And is prevented from doing harm to other people. 01:22:10.572 --> 01:22:13.985 The taking of these lives would not give Chris 01:22:13.985 --> 01:22:16.321 another moment of life and it would not 01:22:16.321 --> 01:22:17.904 give me any relief. 01:22:18.635 --> 01:22:20.489 So I think that what were doing here 01:22:20.489 --> 01:22:23.003 is facing questions about the values 01:22:23.003 --> 01:22:27.170 that we want to bring to defining moments in our lives. 01:22:29.029 --> 01:22:32.517 I personally am simply not willing to be involved 01:22:32.517 --> 01:22:35.652 in taking human life and I hope that this is 01:22:35.652 --> 01:22:38.235 one of the things that we'll able to explore 01:22:38.235 --> 01:22:41.438 in greater depth as all of this unfolds. 01:22:41.438 --> 01:22:45.605 And may this be a time for turning grief into compassion. 01:22:46.589 --> 01:22:50.756 There's one other issue that I would refer to very briefly, 01:22:52.074 --> 01:22:55.121 because we didn't explore it quite so much this week. 01:22:55.121 --> 01:22:58.621 But there's questions involving law of war 01:22:59.634 --> 01:23:03.634 have arisen in the context of these proceedings. 01:23:03.889 --> 01:23:06.938 I came this process with a concern about this, 01:23:06.938 --> 01:23:09.289 how far this was going to be pursued 01:23:09.289 --> 01:23:11.402 in these proceedings is unclear to me. 01:23:11.402 --> 01:23:13.874 But one of the things that particularly concerns me 01:23:13.874 --> 01:23:17.772 about the legal processes is the extent to which 01:23:17.772 --> 01:23:21.105 we can see the unfolding and enhancement 01:23:22.878 --> 01:23:26.128 of international and national processes 01:23:26.361 --> 01:23:28.994 through which civilians can be better protected. 01:23:28.994 --> 01:23:30.989 In which all of us can more secure 01:23:30.989 --> 01:23:34.117 and better protected in a very dangerous world. 01:23:34.117 --> 01:23:36.799 And I hope that at some point through these processes 01:23:36.799 --> 01:23:39.969 we will in fact be able to do a better job 01:23:39.969 --> 01:23:42.527 of creating the law of war that is going to make 01:23:42.527 --> 01:23:45.347 the world a less violent, less destructive 01:23:45.347 --> 01:23:48.180 and less hateful place, thank you. 01:23:57.682 --> 01:23:59.099 - Good afternoon. 01:24:00.135 --> 01:24:03.468 My father, Prem Nath Jareth is good man. 01:24:03.760 --> 01:24:07.510 And I say is, because he continues to live on 01:24:09.596 --> 01:24:12.179 in my heart and in my mother's. 01:24:16.922 --> 01:24:20.922 Many would and in fact do say that he is a hero. 01:24:21.789 --> 01:24:23.456 But context matters. 01:24:24.789 --> 01:24:28.309 During the '93 bombing of the World Trade Center, 01:24:28.309 --> 01:24:30.993 my father came across an older woman, 01:24:30.993 --> 01:24:34.326 on the 30th floor who could not continue 01:24:34.699 --> 01:24:37.032 with the evacuation process. 01:24:37.927 --> 01:24:42.010 He insisted that they would make it out together. 01:24:43.108 --> 01:24:46.358 With his help, she was able to continue 01:24:46.538 --> 01:24:49.538 and they both made it out that time. 01:24:50.063 --> 01:24:53.896 And he said he would not leave anybody behind. 01:24:55.185 --> 01:24:59.352 During the 2001 attacks, when the plane hit the North Tower, 01:25:00.893 --> 01:25:04.550 my father was in the bathroom, along with another gentleman, 01:25:04.550 --> 01:25:08.550 Mr. Adanga, part of the bathroom wall collapsed. 01:25:13.079 --> 01:25:15.329 And Mr. Adanga was injured. 01:25:17.495 --> 01:25:19.912 My father stayed to help him. 01:25:20.695 --> 01:25:24.528 However, neither of them made it out that day. 01:25:27.603 --> 01:25:29.253 My father was more than just 01:25:29.253 --> 01:25:31.920 a hero in the traditional sense. 01:25:36.666 --> 01:25:39.083 He was also my personal hero. 01:25:40.719 --> 01:25:44.135 He helped me with my homework when I was in high school. 01:25:44.135 --> 01:25:47.635 He taught me to love economics and finance 01:25:47.691 --> 01:25:49.858 and to expand my horizons. 01:25:50.835 --> 01:25:54.335 He helped mold me into the man I am today. 01:25:55.830 --> 01:25:58.882 My father also contributed to the community. 01:25:58.882 --> 01:26:01.597 As part of his work, he designed helipads 01:26:01.597 --> 01:26:05.680 throughout New York city, including at hospitals. 01:26:06.684 --> 01:26:09.017 And one of his last projects 01:26:09.126 --> 01:26:11.626 was at Newark Liberty Airport. 01:26:12.534 --> 01:26:14.201 The monorail system. 01:26:18.641 --> 01:26:20.579 It is important to keep in mind 01:26:20.579 --> 01:26:24.746 throughout this process that my family seeks justice. 01:26:26.224 --> 01:26:29.141 Brigadier General Martins, Mr. Ryan 01:26:29.935 --> 01:26:32.243 and the rest of the prosecution team 01:26:32.243 --> 01:26:36.076 are working tirelessly to make this a reality. 01:26:36.442 --> 01:26:40.609 In addition, we must also thank the Victims-Witness 01:26:40.956 --> 01:26:44.706 Assistance Program and its dedicated members. 01:26:46.291 --> 01:26:50.458 Including Ms. Loftus, Mr. McDonald, Captain Coleman. 01:26:52.439 --> 01:26:55.356 Sergeant Lazaro and Ms. St. Martin. 01:27:01.335 --> 01:27:03.918 I also thank the esteemed media 01:27:05.725 --> 01:27:09.058 for your continued coverage and interest 01:27:09.749 --> 01:27:12.082 during this important event. 01:27:13.441 --> 01:27:16.009 While these proceedings are necessary 01:27:16.009 --> 01:27:19.866 to maintain the integrity of the judicial process, 01:27:19.866 --> 01:27:24.033 I hope this kind of proceeding is never needed again. 01:27:25.834 --> 01:27:28.917 We are all someone's husband or wife, 01:27:29.397 --> 01:27:32.564 brother or sister, or son or daughter. 01:27:34.367 --> 01:27:38.117 No one should experience such a loss as this. 01:27:38.697 --> 01:27:39.530 Thank you. 01:27:49.700 --> 01:27:51.117 - Good afternoon. 01:27:53.314 --> 01:27:55.621 My name is Charlie Kaczorowski. 01:27:55.621 --> 01:27:58.870 I feel extremely fortunate to be here in Gitmo 01:27:58.870 --> 01:28:01.536 to witness the hearings for the 9/11 attacks 01:28:01.536 --> 01:28:04.734 put up by the detainees that are being held here. 01:28:04.734 --> 01:28:08.253 I also feel extremely lucky to have met Karen Loftus 01:28:08.253 --> 01:28:12.420 in Lower Manhattan a few years ago on 9/11 anniversary. 01:28:12.440 --> 01:28:14.969 With another family member that had been attending there, 01:28:14.969 --> 01:28:16.610 Gordon and Kathy Haberman, who lost 01:28:16.610 --> 01:28:19.610 their daughter Andrea in the towers. 01:28:20.096 --> 01:28:22.929 That evening when Karen showed up, 01:28:22.941 --> 01:28:25.904 I had the pleasure of meeting Kat Dillaber, 01:28:25.904 --> 01:28:27.573 another survivor in the Pentagon 01:28:27.573 --> 01:28:31.740 who lost his sister, Patricia Ann Mickley, in the Pentagon. 01:28:31.821 --> 01:28:33.869 I think when a survivor meets another survivor, 01:28:33.869 --> 01:28:36.583 we automatically click, we have this automatic 01:28:36.583 --> 01:28:39.416 bond between us that we feel here. 01:28:40.742 --> 01:28:43.914 And it stayed there, since that first night. 01:28:43.914 --> 01:28:45.914 Kathy and knowing Karen. 01:28:48.340 --> 01:28:51.340 As Mac mentioned, I'm a Vietnam vet. 01:28:53.072 --> 01:28:55.448 47 years ago, when I left Vietnam, 01:28:55.448 --> 01:28:58.480 I survived a tour of duty of the Navy SeaBees. 01:28:58.480 --> 01:29:00.469 When I left there, I didn't want to see 01:29:00.469 --> 01:29:02.313 any more death and destruction in my life 01:29:02.313 --> 01:29:04.730 ever again of that magnitude. 01:29:06.710 --> 01:29:09.865 I started working in and around the World Trade Center. 01:29:09.865 --> 01:29:12.175 I worked there for 35 years. 01:29:12.175 --> 01:29:16.342 In every single building and buildings around the complex. 01:29:17.104 --> 01:29:20.018 Just so happens I was there February 26, 1993 01:29:20.018 --> 01:29:24.117 at 12:17, when the van was blown in the basement garage. 01:29:24.117 --> 01:29:26.496 I was the other side of the garage wall. 01:29:26.496 --> 01:29:28.663 I survived that explosion. 01:29:31.436 --> 01:29:35.058 I never thought being there on September 11th, 01:29:35.058 --> 01:29:37.290 that morning to attend a meeting, 01:29:37.290 --> 01:29:39.770 eight, there in the concourse of the South Tower, 01:29:39.770 --> 01:29:43.065 to do work in 100 Cherry Street for the law department, 01:29:43.065 --> 01:29:46.707 I would end up being across the street from the North Tower 01:29:46.707 --> 01:29:49.909 and seeing what I was seeing 'til 9:59, 01:29:49.909 --> 01:29:52.492 when the South Tower came down. 01:29:53.010 --> 01:29:56.080 When it came down, I went back in combat mode. 01:29:56.080 --> 01:29:57.747 Running for my life. 01:29:59.191 --> 01:30:03.024 I came back to Ground Zero two weeks later on. 01:30:03.656 --> 01:30:05.171 Apparently, I think that commission of the City 01:30:05.171 --> 01:30:07.729 of New York Department of Design and Construction 01:30:07.729 --> 01:30:11.171 felt knowing that I worked there for 35 years, 01:30:11.171 --> 01:30:13.897 I've seen death and destruction in Vietnam, 01:30:13.897 --> 01:30:16.295 I was there for the '93 bombing. 01:30:16.295 --> 01:30:19.734 And 9/11 and he knew I wanted to be there, 01:30:19.734 --> 01:30:22.484 for Ground Zero recovery cleanup. 01:30:22.525 --> 01:30:24.565 And I stayed there, I did my job the best 01:30:24.565 --> 01:30:26.982 I could as a site supervisor. 01:30:29.049 --> 01:30:32.382 Being there for 2,247 hours, I got sick. 01:30:33.609 --> 01:30:35.859 I didn't know it 'til 2004. 01:30:37.876 --> 01:30:42.043 World Trade Center cough, wheezing, shortness of breath. 01:30:43.524 --> 01:30:46.157 Acid reflux, GERD, upper and lower 01:30:46.157 --> 01:30:49.490 gastrointestinal problems, COPD, asthma, 01:30:51.388 --> 01:30:54.055 left diaphragm became paralyzed. 01:30:55.761 --> 01:30:58.877 Three near heart attacks, two kidney failure heart attack, 01:30:58.877 --> 01:31:01.259 bladder cancer, which now get treated 01:31:01.259 --> 01:31:05.259 for the rest of my life with vaccine injections. 01:31:07.045 --> 01:31:10.347 I've been told by a news reporter up in New York, 01:31:10.347 --> 01:31:13.264 he called me the ultimate survivor. 01:31:14.833 --> 01:31:19.000 I relive 9/11 every time you hear of a coworker 01:31:20.241 --> 01:31:23.464 who worked along side of me at Ground Zero. 01:31:23.464 --> 01:31:27.565 We're about 1,400, probably 1,460 guys, who worked 01:31:27.565 --> 01:31:31.732 along side who have died from health-related issues. 01:31:32.061 --> 01:31:34.566 I've gone to Washington for four years 01:31:34.566 --> 01:31:37.809 with the FealGood Foundation, walking the halls of Congress, 01:31:37.809 --> 01:31:40.255 because the Zadroga bill passed. 01:31:40.255 --> 01:31:43.088 I'm proud what it did for us guys. 01:31:43.579 --> 01:31:47.716 And I feel it every day, when I hear another body being, 01:31:47.716 --> 01:31:51.049 going to a church for a funeral has died 01:31:51.164 --> 01:31:54.414 from 9/11 related illnesses. 01:31:54.581 --> 01:31:57.581 And I feel for these family members. 01:31:59.607 --> 01:32:02.357 Because being there at that time. 01:32:04.385 --> 01:32:06.968 All those families are with me. 01:32:07.531 --> 01:32:10.531 Everyone who died there are with me. 01:32:11.179 --> 01:32:14.346 And I just want to say one more thing. 01:32:15.023 --> 01:32:17.440 I had the deepest admiration. 01:32:17.705 --> 01:32:21.288 I'm proud and honored to be in the presence 01:32:21.846 --> 01:32:24.771 of the prosecution team, General Martins, 01:32:24.771 --> 01:32:26.771 Ed Ryan, Bob Swan, Clay, 01:32:29.453 --> 01:32:31.703 Nicole, all the paralegals. 01:32:32.411 --> 01:32:35.328 Mac, your team, for having me here. 01:32:36.975 --> 01:32:40.975 It was a dream come true to be here to see this. 01:32:41.847 --> 01:32:45.125 I thank everyone here for having me here. 01:32:45.125 --> 01:32:47.258 You're doing a great job, keep up the good work. 01:32:47.258 --> 01:32:48.091 Thank you. 01:32:53.129 --> 01:32:54.191 - [Man] Any questions? 01:32:54.191 --> 01:32:55.264 - [Carol] You guys what questions? 01:32:55.264 --> 01:32:56.809 Or do you want to be let allowed to go? 01:32:56.809 --> 01:32:57.809 - Fire away. 01:32:58.699 --> 01:33:01.020 - [Carol] Okay, so my question is with, 01:33:01.020 --> 01:33:03.163 you should know that I will not be the least bit offended 01:33:03.163 --> 01:33:05.193 if you don't want to answer. 01:33:05.193 --> 01:33:07.138 When we first went in there on Monday morning, 01:33:07.138 --> 01:33:09.899 I saw some of you standing up and looking through the window 01:33:09.899 --> 01:33:12.732 and trying to look at the accused. 01:33:12.793 --> 01:33:14.260 And I'm wondering if anyone wants to tell me 01:33:14.260 --> 01:33:16.097 what they thought when they saw them? 01:33:16.097 --> 01:33:17.336 - Wondering? - What you thought 01:33:17.336 --> 01:33:18.836 when you saw them? 01:33:19.485 --> 01:33:21.630 But if you don't feel like answering, don't. 01:33:21.630 --> 01:33:22.463 - I can answer that. 01:33:22.463 --> 01:33:24.546 I'm happy to answer that. 01:33:26.352 --> 01:33:30.111 What did I think when I saw the accused in person? 01:33:30.111 --> 01:33:31.406 It goes back to my earlier comment 01:33:31.406 --> 01:33:34.573 about this being a surreal experience. 01:33:37.597 --> 01:33:39.264 It was overwhelming. 01:33:40.757 --> 01:33:44.007 It brought back all of the emotion that 01:33:45.614 --> 01:33:49.237 you have to set aside to live your life day to day. 01:33:49.237 --> 01:33:52.282 But I was coming down here to engage with this. 01:33:52.282 --> 01:33:55.655 And that was one of the many moments this week 01:33:55.655 --> 01:33:58.322 where I was overwhelmingly angry 01:34:00.001 --> 01:34:01.668 and unbelievably sad 01:34:08.222 --> 01:34:10.639 and yet, all of that emotion, 01:34:13.578 --> 01:34:15.599 and it's not tempered in any way, 01:34:15.599 --> 01:34:17.841 but all of that emotion is there 01:34:17.841 --> 01:34:20.091 along side, I'm the lawyer. 01:34:20.867 --> 01:34:22.183 I've been a lawyer for 30 years. 01:34:22.183 --> 01:34:25.766 This is the way we're going to get justice. 01:34:26.458 --> 01:34:28.662 I'm proud of being an American. 01:34:28.662 --> 01:34:32.579 And I'm proud of the fact that we have a system 01:34:33.517 --> 01:34:37.184 that can deal with this unbelievable tragedy 01:34:37.911 --> 01:34:40.828 in a way that's mostly transparent. 01:34:42.568 --> 01:34:45.235 And okay, it's slow and do over, 01:34:47.665 --> 01:34:50.665 and it's taken years, but genuinely, 01:34:51.585 --> 01:34:53.825 people are, as I was saying, 01:34:53.825 --> 01:34:56.501 they're doing incredible work here. 01:34:56.501 --> 01:34:58.001 So how did I feel? 01:34:58.123 --> 01:35:00.623 I was, ugh, that's how I felt. 01:35:03.365 --> 01:35:04.448 Anybody else? 01:35:09.025 --> 01:35:11.461 - I wanted to look at them straight in the face. 01:35:11.461 --> 01:35:12.961 Almost eye to eye. 01:35:13.782 --> 01:35:16.781 Wish I could have five minutes alone with each one of them. 01:35:16.781 --> 01:35:19.426 Because when I looked at them and they looked in my 01:35:19.426 --> 01:35:23.172 direction, I thought about everything I was seeing 01:35:23.172 --> 01:35:26.697 at Ground Zero, night after night, what they did. 01:35:26.697 --> 01:35:30.864 And that will never, ever leave me, what they did. 01:35:41.322 --> 01:35:43.562 - To echo what has already been said, 01:35:43.562 --> 01:35:45.143 a mixture of emotions. 01:35:45.143 --> 01:35:48.060 Rage, sorrow, but at the same time, 01:35:52.110 --> 01:35:55.626 I feel like they've, of course the judicial process 01:35:55.626 --> 01:35:59.376 must be followed but, assuming a just result, 01:36:02.072 --> 01:36:03.072 I feel like, 01:36:06.957 --> 01:36:09.624 I don't know, I don't understand 01:36:10.718 --> 01:36:13.301 why and I don't think I ever will. 01:36:13.301 --> 01:36:16.218 And I hope I never do, I really do. 01:36:23.858 --> 01:36:26.616 - [Terry] I'm Terry McDermott, from the Huffington Post. 01:36:26.616 --> 01:36:28.410 This isn't really a question, 01:36:28.410 --> 01:36:31.577 but I would ask for your observations. 01:36:31.613 --> 01:36:34.780 Most tragedies are personal in nature. 01:36:36.126 --> 01:36:39.376 And this is about as public as it gets. 01:36:39.787 --> 01:36:42.963 I can't recall knowing about an instance 01:36:42.963 --> 01:36:47.130 where people, 16 years after they lost a loved one, 01:36:47.505 --> 01:36:50.234 were being asked to address it publicly. 01:36:50.234 --> 01:36:52.350 And perhaps all the time, I don't know, 01:36:52.350 --> 01:36:54.350 I don't live your lives. 01:36:54.769 --> 01:36:58.769 And the nature of grief is a very private thing. 01:36:59.760 --> 01:37:02.260 I wonder how you process that. 01:37:03.261 --> 01:37:05.261 The two things together. 01:37:05.833 --> 01:37:08.540 The public nature of the circumstance, 01:37:08.540 --> 01:37:11.873 and the personal nature of the emotions. 01:37:12.461 --> 01:37:15.841 (Gil speaking off microphone) 01:37:15.841 --> 01:37:18.008 - That's a great question. 01:37:18.517 --> 01:37:22.434 (sighs) For years, I couldn't. 01:37:23.210 --> 01:37:25.460 But I've come to understand 01:37:26.484 --> 01:37:28.984 that whenever I say to someone 01:37:30.470 --> 01:37:32.950 my brother was killed in 9/11. 01:37:32.950 --> 01:37:36.348 That is guaranteed, there's going to be anywhere 01:37:36.348 --> 01:37:38.947 between 30 seconds and 30 minutes 01:37:38.947 --> 01:37:42.813 of conversation about 9/11, and almost 01:37:42.813 --> 01:37:44.935 invariably a story about where they were, 01:37:44.935 --> 01:37:46.685 what they were doing. 01:37:47.023 --> 01:37:50.273 And that used to usually make me angry. 01:37:51.188 --> 01:37:54.878 It was like, why do you think I care about that? 01:37:54.878 --> 01:37:57.211 But I've come to understand 01:37:57.510 --> 01:37:59.753 that's way people express concern. 01:37:59.753 --> 01:38:02.920 And it's about bonding and it's about, 01:38:05.851 --> 01:38:07.792 almost without exception, 01:38:07.792 --> 01:38:10.125 it's genuinely people trying to express 01:38:10.125 --> 01:38:12.042 their care and concern. 01:38:14.359 --> 01:38:17.859 I find it to be a positive experience now. 01:38:19.956 --> 01:38:22.814 No, I don't necessarily want to be reminded 01:38:22.814 --> 01:38:25.834 every September 11th, but I either walk 01:38:25.834 --> 01:38:28.061 across the Brooklyn Bridge or grab my kids 01:38:28.061 --> 01:38:31.644 and take the subway across to the memorial. 01:38:31.795 --> 01:38:34.029 I've read names three times. 01:38:34.029 --> 01:38:36.678 I volunteer every year to do it. 01:38:36.678 --> 01:38:39.428 My sister's done it once as well. 01:38:43.530 --> 01:38:44.800 We've come to understand, 01:38:44.800 --> 01:38:46.887 I've come to understand over time 01:38:46.887 --> 01:38:49.387 that it's a shared experience. 01:38:53.294 --> 01:38:57.294 We are given such tremendous support and respect 01:38:57.539 --> 01:38:59.539 and love that it's okay. 01:39:09.620 --> 01:39:12.203 I'll never get my brother back. 01:39:12.278 --> 01:39:14.778 But the people that I have met 01:39:16.211 --> 01:39:18.961 because of the loss of my brother 01:39:19.337 --> 01:39:21.087 has enriched my life. 01:39:28.838 --> 01:39:30.469 - I find that an interesting question. 01:39:30.469 --> 01:39:32.385 I find the press very sensitive 01:39:32.385 --> 01:39:34.872 about these issues ordinarily. 01:39:34.872 --> 01:39:37.964 I think that probably everybody should only 01:39:37.964 --> 01:39:41.568 really have to go the funeral of an immediate 01:39:41.568 --> 01:39:44.490 family member or their spouse once in their life. 01:39:44.490 --> 01:39:46.696 And we get to do it again and again. 01:39:46.696 --> 01:39:48.180 And we get to do it whenever anybody 01:39:48.180 --> 01:39:51.097 feels like having a memorial event. 01:39:51.176 --> 01:39:54.343 We can plan it ourselves, but the fact 01:39:54.660 --> 01:39:57.145 that it is so public that means constantly 01:39:57.145 --> 01:40:01.312 one is compelled to deal with any kind of occasion 01:40:02.555 --> 01:40:05.805 that arises and be forced to relive it. 01:40:06.591 --> 01:40:10.091 I haven't had PTSD because my mind doesn't 01:40:10.238 --> 01:40:13.412 want me to do this, but the world forces me 01:40:13.412 --> 01:40:17.510 to do it continually through the calendar coming around 01:40:17.510 --> 01:40:20.434 or a memorial service or some kind of event 01:40:20.434 --> 01:40:22.169 that puts it in the news. 01:40:22.169 --> 01:40:23.970 So the public dimension of this 01:40:23.970 --> 01:40:27.053 is incredibly difficult to deal with. 01:40:27.484 --> 01:40:29.817 And certainly I went through 01:40:31.611 --> 01:40:32.758 a considerable period of thinking 01:40:32.758 --> 01:40:34.871 whether I would come here. 01:40:34.871 --> 01:40:37.844 One of my sisters just didn't want me to do it. 01:40:37.844 --> 01:40:42.011 And another sister didn't think I should do it at all. 01:40:42.034 --> 01:40:45.490 My brother very kindly agreed to come with me. 01:40:45.490 --> 01:40:49.573 So it was in a sense, is one going to put oneself 01:40:50.012 --> 01:40:52.577 through this kind of event yet again? 01:40:52.577 --> 01:40:54.874 And I think that it is terribly hard. 01:40:54.874 --> 01:40:57.517 Yes, people are very supportive. 01:40:57.517 --> 01:40:59.516 But it's not something that should be repeatedly 01:40:59.516 --> 01:41:01.956 done to somebody, I don't think. 01:41:01.956 --> 01:41:05.258 And I've had a sense that some of what operates 01:41:05.258 --> 01:41:07.580 is also something I've come to, 01:41:07.580 --> 01:41:10.195 well, I thought it for a long time, 01:41:10.195 --> 01:41:12.362 is the voyeurism of grief. 01:41:12.559 --> 01:41:15.809 And I prefer really to live without it. 01:41:20.237 --> 01:41:21.545 I've also come, in recent years, 01:41:21.545 --> 01:41:23.580 just to think that I have some kind of duty 01:41:23.580 --> 01:41:26.049 to address some of these issues. 01:41:26.049 --> 01:41:29.100 And after a long period of trying to avoid it, 01:41:29.100 --> 01:41:32.767 I've, in the last few years, done some more. 01:41:32.963 --> 01:41:36.130 So there's those issues that I suppose 01:41:36.738 --> 01:41:38.754 it becomes easier over time. 01:41:38.754 --> 01:41:40.537 And I'm grateful for the fact that the press, 01:41:40.537 --> 01:41:43.329 I think, in confronting these things over and over again, 01:41:43.329 --> 01:41:47.496 is actually normally extremely sensitive on the questions. 01:41:47.904 --> 01:41:49.020 - [John] Just a followup to that. 01:41:49.020 --> 01:41:51.720 Do you have a sense after being here this week 01:41:51.720 --> 01:41:55.136 that it will be hard to follow the trial closely? 01:41:55.136 --> 01:41:59.303 The proceedings closely, for the reasons you just mentioned? 01:42:01.648 --> 01:42:02.898 - I'm not sure. 01:42:08.717 --> 01:42:10.266 Probably coming here is going to make 01:42:10.266 --> 01:42:11.473 some kind of a difference. 01:42:11.473 --> 01:42:15.640 I felt, I was first notified that I could come a year ago. 01:42:16.054 --> 01:42:18.721 And I deferred it a little while 01:42:19.457 --> 01:42:21.724 because of my work obligations. 01:42:21.724 --> 01:42:25.307 But I've been trying to come since January. 01:42:26.512 --> 01:42:28.254 What I basically have felt this week 01:42:28.254 --> 01:42:31.364 is that being here is so much easier than waiting. 01:42:31.364 --> 01:42:33.896 So there is a sense in which doing 01:42:33.896 --> 01:42:35.810 is always better than waiting. 01:42:35.810 --> 01:42:39.977 To some extent, when one has something to do, it is better. 01:42:40.309 --> 01:42:44.476 I feel better and basically this has been such a supportive 01:42:44.543 --> 01:42:48.710 and informative and positive experience, actually. 01:42:49.139 --> 01:42:53.139 That I think it may become easier in the future. 01:43:03.008 --> 01:43:06.591 - When this happened, I was 19 at the time. 01:43:08.394 --> 01:43:12.227 As a young man, it was very difficult to cope, 01:43:12.859 --> 01:43:15.026 being bombarded with this, 01:43:16.529 --> 01:43:18.029 almost constantly. 01:43:20.051 --> 01:43:23.051 And over time, I've heard the phrase 01:43:23.670 --> 01:43:26.587 time heals all wounds and honestly, 01:43:26.637 --> 01:43:28.583 I couldn't disagree more. 01:43:28.583 --> 01:43:31.833 I think the phrase should be more like, 01:43:33.426 --> 01:43:35.843 time teaches you how to cope. 01:43:38.026 --> 01:43:40.526 And that's what it has for me. 01:43:45.008 --> 01:43:47.673 It can be frustrating, it can be. 01:43:47.673 --> 01:43:50.288 But at the same time, having this out there, 01:43:50.288 --> 01:43:52.634 I think, is extremely important. 01:43:52.634 --> 01:43:54.903 The public needs to know, needs to understand 01:43:54.903 --> 01:43:58.986 what's going on and this is part of that process. 01:44:11.682 --> 01:44:14.765 - For me, I find it very therapeutic. 01:44:15.784 --> 01:44:18.184 Meeting family members, other survivors, 01:44:18.184 --> 01:44:20.017 for the past 16 years. 01:44:20.129 --> 01:44:23.272 Talking with them, knowing what they're going through. 01:44:23.272 --> 01:44:25.522 I find it very therapeutic. 01:44:25.879 --> 01:44:27.104 Because when I came back from Vietnam, 01:44:27.104 --> 01:44:29.033 we had nobody to talk to. 01:44:29.033 --> 01:44:32.519 We buried it and we buried it deep inside of us. 01:44:32.519 --> 01:44:35.246 So I'm thankful for them being here. 01:44:35.246 --> 01:44:37.519 Sometimes I lose my way when I talk with them 01:44:37.519 --> 01:44:40.041 and I may say something I shouldn't have said, 01:44:40.041 --> 01:44:42.733 since I'm open about my feelings. 01:44:42.733 --> 01:44:46.900 And if I did say something, I apologize to you deeply. 01:44:47.225 --> 01:44:49.808 Yes, but I feel being with them 01:44:50.893 --> 01:44:53.060 makes me feel good inside. 01:44:55.914 --> 01:44:58.497 - Thanks, everyone. - Thank you.