WEBVTT

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- Thank you to the team for getting us set up here,

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and thank you to the audience for staying with us

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after a brief break.

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As John mentioned, we're gonna transition now

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to a discussion, panel discussion with a great team

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of panelists who have actually been engaged in driving

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innovation as Dr. Brown did certainly throughout his career,

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but in bringing us a variety of perspectives,

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^both public and private and for some a really interesting

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^mixture of both and how this operates,

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^and let me just say that when you say you're gonna

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^have a discussion about innovation, there's at least

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^probably a hundred different discussions,

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^that could become, even down to what is the definition

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^of what you mean, when you're talking about innovation.

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^We titled this event, "Leading Innovative Organizations,"

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and I think those of you who have been to prior events

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in our implementing innovation series, know that

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we wanna make sure that as we talk of innovation

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we don't confuse innovation with technology development.

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They're related things and certainly technology development

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can be a driver of innovation, but there's a lot

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of other ingredients that go into making change

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in organizations, which is where John started

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talking about how do we make change in large organizations

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like the US government?

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So the leading innovative organizations

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is hoping we're going to try and look

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at some of these organizational issues of how

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do organizations accommodate change

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and Dr. Brown did a good job

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of giving some insights on that.

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And so giving us further insights on that,

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we have a great panel.

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To my left is Dr. Arati Prabhakar,

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who is Director of the Defense Advance

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Research Projects Agency, DARPA.

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She began a little while ago,

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as a Program Manager at DARPA.

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- [Woman] 30 years.

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(laughter)

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- In the Microelectronics Technology Office.

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She was Director, subsequently of the National Institute

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of Standards and Technology, NIST.

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By the way, I think a very under-appreciated piece

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of the US government and the system innovation

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in the country.

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My father was a professor of mathematics, but always

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looked to NIST as a real standards archtypical piece

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of the US government.

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She served as President of Interval Research at Raychem,

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and a partner with US Venture Partners.

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She has a Doctorate in Applied Physics

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as well as a Masters and a Bachelors, so well-rounded.

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To her left, is Fred Khosravi, who is Managing Director

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of Incept, LLC.

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Prior to this position Mr. Khosravi served simultaneously

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as Chairman of Confluent Surgical, Inc.,

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and President and CEO of Embolic Protection, Inc.

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He's co-founded a variety of other companies,

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most of which are in the medical field,

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and so I think the way John describes it,

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is he is a serial innovator, a serial entrepreneur,

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and essentially has started and founded new technologies,

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and just doesn't sit on his laurels, keeps going.

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- I think he said chronic.

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- Chronic, yes, he did use the word chronic.

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(laughter)

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And so glad he could join us today.

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To his left is Peter Kant, who is Vice President

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at SRI International’s Center for Innovation

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Strategy and Policy.

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SRI once upon a time, stood for Stanford Research Institute.

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^It is now, I think, just three connected letters,

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^but the background of SRI is working exactly

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^on many of the breakthroughs that Dr. Brown mentioned,

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^from the internet and other technologies,

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^including in the current day, things like Siri

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^and the artificial intelligence that gets built

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^into many of our consumer products.

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^He has previously served as Executive Vice President

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^at Rapiscan Systems where he did a major market expansion

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^of their security screening system,

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^and also prior to that, Senior Vice President

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^at the Jefferson Consulting Group,

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^and has a number of distinguished degrees as well.

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^So, I'm gonna recognize each panelist in turn,

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^just to give us a few opening thoughts,

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^and then we'll turn to our discussion piece,

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^and Arati, I'd like to start with you.

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^- Okay, thank you very much for the chance to be here.

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^Maybe, I will start by making a couple of remarks

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about the large organization that I'm part of,

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^the Defense Department, and then a little bit

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^about innovation within DARPA.

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^A lot has been said, has been said today,

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^will continue to be said about the Defense Department,

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^and how it innovates, actually, I think way too much

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^has been said about how it can't innovate.

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^I actually think DARPA is a very important reminder

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^that the largest organization in the world,

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^with one of the hardest missions in the world,

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^in the US government, has actually been able

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^to nurture an organization for nearly six decades,

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^that over the course of that time,

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^has sparked the revolutions that lead to stealth

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^to precision strike, to artificial intelligence,

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^the internet, the foundations for modern microelectronics.

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^That didn't happen by accident,

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^and it happened because of a mission,

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that was the foundation of this organization.

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I think everyone knows the story that DARPA

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was formed, ARPA at that time was formed

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in the wake of the surprise of Sputnik,

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out of a recognition that you needed a place

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that came to work every day to prevent

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that kind of surprise, that didn't just do the things

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that we already knew we needed to do,

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and I think very fortunately, DARPA's original leaders

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recognized that preventing surprise was actually

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not a defensive act, but a creative one,

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and they set out to go create surprises of their own,

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and that's really why all of this was possible,

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but that none of that would have been possible

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without now six decades of sustained support.

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I'm buried in the Defense Department.

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I don't even show up on any org charts,

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'cause I report to an Assistant Secretary

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who reports to an under-secretary to the Deputy

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to the Secretary to the President,

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but what matters is that everyone of us five individuals,

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understands our mission, and gives us room to do it,

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and both sides of the aisle on Capitol Hill,

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understand our mission and give us room to do it.

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So, it is actually, I think, an important existence proof,

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and so number one, that's sort of, I think, an important

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thing to think about in the context of the department's

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ability to innovate and take risks.

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Within DARPA, we think that the mission that we have

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is a tremendous privilege and a responsibility.

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We recognize that how we implement it

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is critically important, and at the end of the day

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for DARPA, I think the roots of our ability

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to innovate lie in a model that says

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that we constantly, we're staying focused

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on the same mission, over all these decades.

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We are constantly reinforcing our culture,

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but everything other than mission and culture,

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we are relentless, we're ruthless

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about walking away from it and moving on to the next thing,

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and that is built into how we operate.

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It's built in to the fact that we are a projects agency.

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A project is something that starts

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and it's something that ends.

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I think ending is at least as important as starting.

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It's built into the way we bring people in

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from all different parts of the technical community,

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really amazing technical leaders in their fields,

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people who have come with backgrounds in commercial

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or defense industries, entrepreneurs,

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or people who've worked in big companies,

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people from universities, people from every part

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of the not-for-profit community and from universities,

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but they come to DARPA with all of that expertise,

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all of that drive and brilliance that they bring,

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but they come for short periods of time,

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again, this idea that you want to be constantly

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able to refresh and renew.

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The fact that we can put a critical mass of resource

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onto projects with big ambitious goals,

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and we work very hard to build into our business processes,

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first the ability to take risks,

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because you have to if you're gonna reach for big impact,

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but then after you take that risk,

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and start a project, a lot of work to drive the risk down,

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because we'd like ultimately to be able to hand

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these technologies off to people

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who don't have our risk profile, and,

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in fact, can then take 'em and make 'em operational,

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which is, you know, the game at the end.

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That's what counts at the end of the day.

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That's a little bit about how we think about

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keeping that engine of innovation going,

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and how it happens in every generation at DARPA,

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is very, very different but I think

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you'll see these common threads across much of our history.

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- Well thank you.

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I'm gonna turn next to Fred and I have to correct

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and amend myself, because one of the distinguished

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credentials Fred that you have,

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that I forgot to mention is you're a CSIS Trustee.

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We thank you for (laughs) providing that service

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as well as joining us today.

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Your opening thoughts.

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- So I have no military background.

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I am an entrepreneur by nature, a chronic entrepreneur

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^as John calls it, and so I can give you a little bit

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^of a view from the ground up, as opposed to

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^the top-down view,

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^and that is, I think, as I was thinking about Andrew,

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^about this meeting, and you and I had

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^a conversation about it.

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^I really put some thoughts together in terms

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^of what are really inhibitors to innovation, first.

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I think just thinking about what the inhibitors are,

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one of the fundamental ones that really jump out at me

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constantly, is the size of teams.

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I think the concept of too big to fail,

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is a cliche that we've heard, but I would say,

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as it pertains to innovation, too big, will fail,

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and I think small teams end up being a critical part

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of the ingredients, so to speak.

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DARPA is a great example of it,

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being able to create small teams with specific objectives

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with specific incentive structures,

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not necessarily financial, but goals

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that teams can actually strive towards.

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That ends up being an important part

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of the process, basically, and I think from my perspective,

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again, from a ground-level standpoint,

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the ability to fail.

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I think failure is an important part of the process,

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failing fast and being able to have the ability

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to try ideas, otherwise, I think if you get shot

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for failing, you just never try anything, effectively,

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and so I think that ends up being an important

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part of the process, but it also,

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it actually encourages teams to really be able

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to work together and lift each other up in the process.

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The other aspect of what I think,

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from my perspective, as a serial entrepreneur,

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is an inhibitor is not-invented-here syndrome.

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Being able to actually take ideas from the outside

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is an important part of this basically,

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and then having to question, I think why something

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is happening, I think we encourage our teams,

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our small teams in a number of small companies, basically,

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that if you ask the question of why is something done

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a certain way, and somebody says, "Well it's always

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"been done this way."

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That's the point to really question it and say,

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"Why not some other way?"

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If the answer comes back that it's done this way,

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because in the changing environment and dynamics of today

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this is still the best way to do it,

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I think that's something you keep.

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If it's something that you really can't answer,

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then you just say, what's not broke don't fix it,

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that's time to actually change.

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So those are really from my perspective,

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the major inhibitors to innovation,

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and then we can talk more about some of the ones

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that actually induce innovation if you will.

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- [Andrew] Great.

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^Peter.

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^- Well, thank you Andrew for hosting,

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^and it's great to be on this panel.

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^I don't know how I snuck in, but it was in the last second,

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^so I was able to sit in the chair,

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^and thank you for sharing this time with me.

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^I have a slightly different background

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^than the other two panelists,

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^but SRI has a long history as Andrew alluded to,

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^70 years of working with the government

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^and with the private sector.

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^We're the second or third node on the ARPANET

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^when it was created.

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^We're part of stealth.

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^I was an appointee.

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^I worked for Vice President Gore

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^and so I like to say that I worked for a guy

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^who said he invented the internet

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^to the place that actually did.

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^(laughter)

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^But the growth of SRI through that 70-year history

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and many of the elements that we're on the forefront of,

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^we're going through a struggling time,

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^and I don't mean financially or from an intellectual way,

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^but the nature of what it means to be a partner

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^with the Defense Department and a partner in innovation

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^is dramatically changing, and whereas, we were very much

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^part of where ideas could start in a national lab

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^or a government lab, and move through what was,

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^I think one of the greater innovations

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^in the Defense Department was the creation

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of an innovation place like DARPA.

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That in and of itself, is innovating the organization,

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which tends to get forgotten, when we think about robots

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and artificial intelligence, and sharks with laser beams

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on their heads, so that progress, then moved to places

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like SRI and FFRDCs and Bell Labs, to move through the,

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move from basic research to applied research

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to prototype, but it was very linear,

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and the ideas, the hallmark questions

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that were put to things, the creation of the technology,

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the thought, the vision that it could happen,

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were very much internal to the public sector,

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to the defense agents, the Defense Department,

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or the Department of Energy or it may be,

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and then SRI was able to capitalize and create

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those things and then hopefully have wonderful

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commercial spin-outs like Siri, and intuitive

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surgical robotics and the like.

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Now that innovation is coming,

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a lot of it is coming externally,

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the report you're holding in our hand Andrew,

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points to the need for getting that outside innovation,

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or outside technology development

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back into the public sector,

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and now the pathway is both in terms of R&D money,

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where it comes from being mostly in the commercial sector,

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more so in the international sector, parity with Russia

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and China, in terms of technical development

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or capability, and many other players,

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means that we have a lot of opportunity

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to pull from a lot, seven billion great minds,

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in the world, but it's really hard.

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The Defense Department at times, and SRI fits in this mold

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at times, feels like while it's responsible

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for defending the country and all two million people

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in there, are committed to defending the country,

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it often is asked to defend the process,

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and I think that, that is really stifling to innovation,

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but there's a tremendous amount of hope as I lay this out,

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and a couple of points that we're thinking about,

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which is why I would argue that they've brought

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in a policy and economics person to come at SRI

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is that innovation to the organization is almost

16:37.959 --> 16:40.794
as critical, if not more so, than the technology

16:40.794 --> 16:43.679
innovation that can be happen, and creating,

16:43.679 --> 16:47.482
identifying these barriers or these hindrances

16:47.482 --> 16:50.548
to innovation and finding creative and innovative

16:50.548 --> 16:53.047
solutions organizationally is important.

16:53.047 --> 16:55.838
We spend a lot of time, spending a lot of R&D resources

16:55.838 --> 16:58.229
as a country, as institutions, on trying to find

16:58.229 --> 17:01.110
the next great robot, exosome to cure cancer

17:01.110 --> 17:04.311
with precision medicine, whatever it may be,

17:04.311 --> 17:05.843
there's very little R&D that's been

17:05.843 --> 17:09.151
on R&D for organizational innovation and improvement.

17:09.151 --> 17:10.523
What should the Department of Defense

17:10.523 --> 17:13.395
or the government look like in this sort of technology

17:13.395 --> 17:15.059
ubiquitous world with the speed

17:15.059 --> 17:17.319
of knowledge it goes through,

17:17.319 --> 17:19.338
the speed of which knowledge transfers to folks?

17:19.338 --> 17:21.768
These are great questions that we, I think,

17:21.768 --> 17:25.935
as a country because of our culture, creative society,

17:26.405 --> 17:29.584
capitalist culture, openness to new ideas

17:29.584 --> 17:31.935
have exceedingly competitive advantages over

17:31.935 --> 17:34.299
our current adversaries are in,

17:34.299 --> 17:37.498
while they are organizationally exceedingly efficient,

17:37.498 --> 17:40.831
they're not organizationally innovative,

17:41.389 --> 17:45.387
and I think we could be, and we have an openness to allow

17:45.387 --> 17:49.054
in ideas, allow in others, into our culture,

17:50.570 --> 17:53.053
into our community that can open up

17:53.053 --> 17:54.715
all new pathways for ourselves,

17:54.715 --> 17:57.920
and losing the focus on that by chasing the next widget,

17:57.920 --> 18:00.767
although that is what SRI does, is hopefully build

18:00.767 --> 18:03.660
the next widget, is exceedingly important to this concept

18:03.660 --> 18:07.827
of innovation in the public sector and more broadly.

18:08.106 --> 18:09.931
- Well thank you Peter.

18:09.931 --> 18:12.464
I want to start a little bit of Q&A here,

18:12.464 --> 18:14.143
just among us up here on the stage

18:14.143 --> 18:16.268
and then we'll turn to audience questions,

18:16.268 --> 18:20.435
but I wanna start with a question on identifying problems,

18:22.717 --> 18:25.972
and problem statements, and, you know, part of being

18:25.972 --> 18:28.321
open to innovation, part of being open to organizational

18:28.321 --> 18:30.282
change is recognizing when something isn't working

18:30.282 --> 18:32.888
or when something needs to change, or perhaps,

18:32.888 --> 18:35.396
when there's an opportunity that simply presents itself,

18:35.396 --> 18:38.828
that can be taken advantage of, maybe, you're doing okay,

18:38.828 --> 18:40.536
but nonetheless an opportunity

18:40.536 --> 18:42.921
comes along and presents itself,

18:42.921 --> 18:45.797
and I think this is a common problem across organizations,

18:45.797 --> 18:48.214
not one of government, alone.

18:48.782 --> 18:50.968
What's interesting, just in the discussion that we've

18:50.968 --> 18:52.849
already had, and Dr. Brown's comments

18:52.849 --> 18:55.137
is there's a little bit of a feedback loop

18:55.137 --> 18:57.107
in problem identification.

18:57.107 --> 18:59.301
You can identify a problem, but if you've got

18:59.301 --> 19:02.056
absolutely no idea how to solve it,

19:02.056 --> 19:03.966
it's not gonna help you a lot, to spend a lot of time

19:03.966 --> 19:04.813
on that problem.

19:04.813 --> 19:06.221
Now if you've got an inkling of an idea

19:06.221 --> 19:08.849
how to solve it, you've got at least a germ of an idea,

19:08.849 --> 19:10.753
then, okay maybe we can make some progress,

19:10.753 --> 19:13.253
set up a team and go after it.

19:13.650 --> 19:16.739
But I'd be interested in your thoughts,

19:16.739 --> 19:19.698
and certainly as leader of DARPA, Arati,

19:19.698 --> 19:22.768
this is something that you do on a very regular basis.

19:22.768 --> 19:25.302
I would not necessarily say daily, but often,

19:25.302 --> 19:29.057
^you know, just selecting which problems to work on,

19:29.057 --> 19:30.369
^and you will sometimes fail.

19:30.369 --> 19:33.536
^We've talked about being open to that,

19:33.690 --> 19:35.606
^but how do you go through that process

19:35.606 --> 19:39.773
^of identifying the problems that are worth pursuing?

19:42.035 --> 19:43.934
^- Let's see, a couple of different answers to that.

19:43.934 --> 19:47.767
^Number one, I think how you frame the problem,

19:48.703 --> 19:50.953
^is the first critical step.

19:51.109 --> 19:53.850
So, keying off a lot of the conversation we've been having

19:53.850 --> 19:56.150
this morning, one of the things that is very

19:56.150 --> 19:59.900
different, when I came back to DARPA in 2012,

20:00.253 --> 20:02.848
very, very different world in which we're executing

20:02.848 --> 20:06.300
our mission, and, you know, we've talked a little bit

20:06.300 --> 20:09.330
about the variety of national security challenges.

20:09.330 --> 20:12.655
The biggest shift that has happened in technology,

20:12.655 --> 20:15.229
itself, is not about any one technology.

20:15.229 --> 20:18.119
It is about the technology ecosystem that we're in,

20:18.119 --> 20:20.375
and I think we're all expressing a lot of nostalgia,

20:20.375 --> 20:23.052
for the good old days, when the US got to own

20:23.052 --> 20:25.440
all the technologies for decades before anyone else

20:25.440 --> 20:28.090
got to play, and, you know, the government

20:28.090 --> 20:30.098
drove it all and the Defense Department

20:30.098 --> 20:30.964
within the government

20:30.964 --> 20:32.185
drove and owned it all.

20:32.185 --> 20:33.765
So it's okay to be nostalgic about that,

20:33.765 --> 20:34.957
but I think we need to get over it.

20:34.957 --> 20:36.795
That is just not the world we live in,

20:36.795 --> 20:40.212
and by every measure, except our mission,

20:41.275 --> 20:42.968
it is a much better world.

20:42.968 --> 20:45.263
It is one in which technology is lifting people

20:45.263 --> 20:47.699
out of poverty around the world,

20:47.699 --> 20:49.094
economies are growing.

20:49.094 --> 20:53.261
It is one in which, the private sector is growing R&D

20:53.713 --> 20:56.775
in the US, much faster than GDP, as you see

20:56.775 --> 20:59.586
the intensification of the innovation economy,

20:59.586 --> 21:02.306
and, you know, these are all the reasons

21:02.306 --> 21:03.890
that we wanna keep our country secure,

21:03.890 --> 21:06.057
so that people can have a rising standard of living

21:06.057 --> 21:09.144
and enjoy future prosperity, so that is happening.

21:09.144 --> 21:11.106
We've been very, very successful,

21:11.106 --> 21:14.182
but it is now a fact of life that technology,

21:14.182 --> 21:16.914
many dimensions of technology, by no means all,

21:16.914 --> 21:18.726
but many dimensions of technology

21:18.726 --> 21:20.364
are being very aggressively

21:20.364 --> 21:22.107
driven by the private sector.

21:22.107 --> 21:23.984
They're being driven globally,

21:23.984 --> 21:25.863
and not just in the United States,

21:25.863 --> 21:30.030
and underlying all of that is a pace of technological

21:30.236 --> 21:33.742
evolution that is very different than we certainly

21:33.742 --> 21:37.742
in DOD are structured for, and so thinking about

21:38.505 --> 21:41.088
the elements of the second offset strategy,

21:41.088 --> 21:44.062
at that time, thinking about precision strike,

21:44.062 --> 21:47.082
thinking about stealth, I think it was very clear

21:47.082 --> 21:49.167
to the people who were driving those technologies

21:49.167 --> 21:53.250
that they gave us the opportunity for an extended

21:53.572 --> 21:57.155
period of military technological dominance.

21:57.434 --> 22:00.048
Well, I think that, that was true and they did,

22:00.048 --> 22:02.763
but it is now 40 years later, so I think we shouldn't

22:02.763 --> 22:05.206
be surprised that it's time to start thinking

22:05.206 --> 22:08.873
about some new ways to deal with the future.

22:09.516 --> 22:11.391
I think what the fundamental difference

22:11.391 --> 22:14.891
in my mind is, about this next big offset,

22:16.680 --> 22:19.227
is that the technologies that we're dealing with today,

22:19.227 --> 22:22.722
move at a pace that means that you can no longer

22:22.722 --> 22:25.570
assume that you will get 20 or 40 years

22:25.570 --> 22:29.557
of technological advantage with the next leap ahead,

22:29.557 --> 22:31.721
and that drives you away from thinking

22:31.721 --> 22:35.888
in silver bullet terms to thinking in deeper architectural

22:36.253 --> 22:38.419
terms about what those solutions can look like,

22:38.419 --> 22:40.524
because it's no longer going to be a successful

22:40.524 --> 22:42.944
strategy to simply come up with

22:42.944 --> 22:45.061
a major advance and capability.

22:45.061 --> 22:48.811
We have to design systems that are inherently

22:49.545 --> 22:52.470
able to keep progressing at the pace

22:52.470 --> 22:54.631
of the underlying technology,

22:54.631 --> 22:56.131
which is by the way, the opposite of

22:56.131 --> 22:58.001
what our military systems look like today.

22:58.001 --> 23:01.094
They are essentially hostile to all advances

23:01.094 --> 23:02.800
and underlying technology.

23:02.800 --> 23:05.066
That's why it takes half a billion dollars

23:05.066 --> 23:08.706
to upgrade an obsolete semiconductor component

23:08.706 --> 23:11.591
in an F-35 that hasn't even reached IOC.

23:11.591 --> 23:13.841
This is the little world that we've been living in.

23:13.841 --> 23:17.841
So, you know, DARPA's always asking the question

23:18.918 --> 23:21.182
about the next big military system or weapon

23:21.182 --> 23:23.493
that's really gonna be a big deal,

23:23.493 --> 23:25.748
but today we are asking it through the lens

23:25.748 --> 23:27.989
of what are the new architectures that would allow

23:27.989 --> 23:30.987
not just for the leaping capability, but for

23:30.987 --> 23:34.570
composable systems that grab new technology

23:35.213 --> 23:36.288
and continue to advance?

23:36.288 --> 23:38.723
I think that's the only way we're gonna really get ahead

23:38.723 --> 23:42.619
of the kind of technology, in the kind of technological

23:42.619 --> 23:45.286
environment that we're in today.

23:45.800 --> 23:48.393
- Fred, I've lost count of how many companies you started

23:48.393 --> 23:50.173
but my sense, and you can correct me

23:50.173 --> 23:52.951
if I'm wrong, is that, you know, each company essentially

23:52.951 --> 23:55.932
starts out with a problem to be solved,

23:55.932 --> 23:58.746
and, again, where you succeed and develop

23:58.746 --> 24:01.579
a solution, to a problem, then that company

24:01.579 --> 24:04.435
organizes itself, around providing that solution

24:04.435 --> 24:07.953
on the marketplace, but since you've repeatedly

24:07.953 --> 24:11.687
done this, what are the signals that tell you

24:11.687 --> 24:14.687
that this is a problem worth tackling?

24:14.687 --> 24:17.448
- Well each company also starts with one person.

24:17.448 --> 24:20.333
So it really starts with one person and it grows

24:20.333 --> 24:24.083
and it becomes something that a team of folks

24:25.755 --> 24:28.371
get excited about a mission, so to speak,

24:28.371 --> 24:32.288
and I think from my perspective the fundamental

24:32.740 --> 24:36.907
answer to your question is innovation from my perspective

24:39.159 --> 24:41.659
are things that really matter,

24:41.878 --> 24:43.524
that they actually do something,

24:43.524 --> 24:47.024
that they make a significant contribution.

24:47.941 --> 24:50.109
Secretary Brown pointed that out.

24:50.109 --> 24:53.942
We had a big threat and there were innovations

24:54.668 --> 24:58.501
that were happening in grand scale, basically,

24:59.716 --> 25:01.549
to offset that threat.

25:01.550 --> 25:05.633
That was something meaningful, and I think things

25:05.633 --> 25:09.800
that really matter, end up having a high likelihood,

25:10.410 --> 25:12.669
of being able to cross the finish line,

25:12.669 --> 25:14.866
and becoming products that help patients.

25:14.866 --> 25:18.699
We just, to give you an example, back in 1989,

25:19.676 --> 25:23.676
we developed the first stints, the first springs

25:24.772 --> 25:27.804
that kept arteries open, of patients,

25:27.804 --> 25:31.971
and it really seemed like a completely crazy idea,

25:33.188 --> 25:36.771
but heart disease was the number one killer

25:37.504 --> 25:40.678
of patients around the world, basically,

25:40.678 --> 25:44.345
and when you fast-forward from when we began

25:44.609 --> 25:47.194
developing that technology with a very small group

25:47.194 --> 25:51.361
and what it's doing today, is that there are five,

25:51.611 --> 25:54.324
six million patients around the world, basically,

25:54.324 --> 25:58.491
that get affected by having stints in their hearts

25:59.134 --> 26:01.313
and their arteries open and functioning

26:01.313 --> 26:05.396
and living to years that have been unprecedented.

26:07.616 --> 26:10.007
But that's something that really matters,

26:10.007 --> 26:12.512
and because it mattered, it became a mission

26:12.512 --> 26:16.429
that the team continued basically going through

26:17.802 --> 26:21.635
all sorts of obstacles to try to get it there.

26:21.980 --> 26:24.000
- Getting into your question about how to define

26:24.000 --> 26:28.167
the problem, SRI being, it's ethos is driven very much

26:28.687 --> 26:30.998
by it's history, with places like DARPA

26:30.998 --> 26:33.715
and so we ask internally many of the same kind of questions

26:33.715 --> 26:37.382
but to bring it back a level, what I've seen

26:38.130 --> 26:42.297
is in the problem formation often what find debilitating

26:44.100 --> 26:47.320
is setting the wrong problem or too small a problem,

26:47.320 --> 26:49.121
is the assumptions that the people come with

26:49.121 --> 26:51.288
when they're setting up that problem statement,

26:51.288 --> 26:53.463
and so what we do, often encourage,

26:53.463 --> 26:55.713
you hear a lot about we need multi-disciplinary teams

26:55.713 --> 26:58.861
or multi-functional teams, or multi-perspective teams.

26:58.861 --> 27:02.066
At the very beginning of the problem definition,

27:02.066 --> 27:05.697
and what that multi-disciplinary or even multi-player

27:05.697 --> 27:07.369
or stakeholder approach can do,

27:07.369 --> 27:10.380
is they get to be, often, this is the world I serve,

27:10.380 --> 27:12.536
is the idiot in the room, who asks the question,

27:12.536 --> 27:14.189
"Why can't we do that?"

27:14.189 --> 27:16.441
They make certain assumptions leading up to the problem,

27:16.441 --> 27:19.304
so we need a system that does X, Y and Z,

27:19.304 --> 27:22.439
because the problem is that you can't mutate

27:22.439 --> 27:24.760
the laws of physics, okay, that's a tougher one to break,

27:24.760 --> 27:26.561
but oh, because this hasn't been done yet,

27:26.561 --> 27:27.645
or that hasn't been done yet.

27:27.645 --> 27:29.777
Others in the room with different perspectives.

27:29.777 --> 27:32.085
One is they do give the perspective of this is how

27:32.085 --> 27:34.814
I would use it, this is how the problem affects me,

27:34.814 --> 27:38.624
but also they challenge very much the experts in the room

27:38.624 --> 27:40.365
about well, why are you making that assumption?

27:40.365 --> 27:42.036
Why is that a limitation?

27:42.036 --> 27:45.026
It's exceedingly important in the problem definition,

27:45.026 --> 27:47.200
and the best way that we found in getting in that,

27:47.200 --> 27:50.629
is bringing, if we see a robotics problem,

27:50.629 --> 27:51.954
we bring non-roboticists

27:51.954 --> 27:54.671
into the room, to have that conversation,

27:54.671 --> 27:58.838
and in the non-technology innovation problem definition,

27:59.809 --> 28:03.309
often that comes from including customers,

28:03.591 --> 28:07.145
stakeholders, suppliers, users of a technology,

28:07.145 --> 28:10.728
users and their approach, and into the room

28:11.868 --> 28:13.954
during that problem definition phase so can

28:13.954 --> 28:16.712
actually truly I think define a base challenge

28:16.712 --> 28:19.054
that you're trying to address.

28:19.054 --> 28:22.692
- So including non-experts in your problem definition stage.

28:22.692 --> 28:25.782
That's the strongest articulation of the role of Congress

28:25.782 --> 28:26.615
that we've had --

28:26.615 --> 28:28.084
(laughter)

28:28.084 --> 28:28.981
for some time.

28:28.981 --> 28:31.128
I say that as a former congressional staffer, so,

28:31.128 --> 28:32.765
a little bit of gentle personal fun,

28:32.765 --> 28:35.432
but, you know, I wasn't planning

28:36.357 --> 28:38.858
to ask this before we started but it really struck me

28:38.858 --> 28:42.995
when Dr. Brown, was talking about how laboratories

28:42.995 --> 28:44.800
were really this engine.

28:44.800 --> 28:48.385
It was an engine for bringing people into government,

28:48.385 --> 28:52.302
articulate people, intelligent, talented folks.

28:52.438 --> 28:55.398
It was a way in which people could go back and forth,

28:55.398 --> 28:58.874
between government and the private sector in the past,

28:58.874 --> 29:01.836
and you had these iconic legendary institutions,

29:01.836 --> 29:05.753
Bell Labs, and others, and you really don't see

29:07.104 --> 29:09.858
laboratories highlighted in the same way anymore

29:09.858 --> 29:14.025
as they used to be, and DARPA, doesn't call itself,

29:14.025 --> 29:14.858
a laboratory.

29:14.858 --> 29:16.219
I don't know that it fights the definition

29:16.219 --> 29:17.550
of a laboratory.

29:17.550 --> 29:19.618
So, I just kind of wanted,

29:19.618 --> 29:22.082
so not to get bogged down in whether a laboratory's

29:22.082 --> 29:25.749
good or bad, as much as that there does seem

29:25.847 --> 29:28.629
to have been an organizational change in the way

29:28.629 --> 29:31.217
organizations approach, and it used to be more

29:31.217 --> 29:33.453
of a laboratory model, and now the model is more

29:33.453 --> 29:37.620
like DARPA, more like a startup potentially enterprises,

29:38.429 --> 29:40.447
but I have to observe that you do see

29:40.447 --> 29:42.584
these major research universities that are tied

29:42.584 --> 29:45.591
directly with most of the companies that we now

29:45.591 --> 29:46.924
see as dominant.

29:47.087 --> 29:49.437
They grew, a shocking number of them,

29:49.437 --> 29:53.279
are associated with Stanford or MIT in some fashion.

29:53.279 --> 29:56.533
So do you see, is there an important change

29:56.533 --> 29:57.495
that's gone on here?

29:57.495 --> 29:59.618
Are we sort of calling things by different names?

29:59.618 --> 30:02.994
Does it relate to this change in the innovation ecosystem

30:02.994 --> 30:04.103
Arati that you talked about?

30:04.103 --> 30:04.936
- Absolutely.

30:04.936 --> 30:08.278
I think we still all carry around in our heads,

30:08.278 --> 30:12.103
a model of the US innovation system that Vannevar Bush

30:12.103 --> 30:14.126
outlined at the end of the second war.

30:14.126 --> 30:16.159
Unbelievably powerful framing, right,

30:16.159 --> 30:18.645
that laid the groundwork for all that has happened

30:18.645 --> 30:21.650
in that community for all these decades,

30:21.650 --> 30:24.122
but some big structural shifts have happened.

30:24.122 --> 30:26.199
It used to be Bell Labs, GE, DuPont,

30:26.199 --> 30:30.366
these big corporate entities with some substantial

30:30.678 --> 30:31.528
basic research.

30:31.528 --> 30:35.028
By in large, that's shifted and gone away.

30:35.130 --> 30:38.380
The role of a national labs has evolved

30:38.894 --> 30:41.034
and I would say in some ways a lot of the rest

30:41.034 --> 30:43.807
of what's happened has raced past them.

30:43.807 --> 30:46.364
We all like to mourn, but I think there's something

30:46.364 --> 30:48.074
really big to celebrate.

30:48.074 --> 30:49.843
30 years ago when I started at DARPA

30:49.843 --> 30:51.563
as a young program manager,

30:51.563 --> 30:54.098
I could not get university professors

30:54.098 --> 30:55.765
to talk to industry.

30:55.772 --> 30:58.428
By in large a few would, like at Stanford,

30:58.428 --> 31:00.349
of course, they would, but everywhere else

31:00.349 --> 31:02.250
they would say, "Well that would taint me.

31:02.250 --> 31:04.042
"Why would a I talk to industry?"

31:04.042 --> 31:08.209
Cultural shift of enormous proportions has happened,

31:08.961 --> 31:11.187
you know, not an unalloyed good,

31:11.187 --> 31:12.381
because I think somethings were lost

31:12.381 --> 31:15.618
in the way university research shifted,

31:15.618 --> 31:17.925
but I would tell you, I think it is phenomenonally

31:17.925 --> 31:22.092
more impactful in getting the fruits of research out

31:23.760 --> 31:24.829
into the world.

31:24.829 --> 31:27.306
One of the dimensions of that, is startups,

31:27.306 --> 31:30.441
university startups, very much being a part of it,

31:30.441 --> 31:34.054
and that startup ecosystem has continued to bubble

31:34.054 --> 31:36.769
and brew and get bigger and stronger and to morph

31:36.769 --> 31:40.936
in new ways, and the information technology revolutions

31:42.089 --> 31:45.061
that have played out as whole, as entire industries

31:45.061 --> 31:46.311
have burgeoned.

31:46.634 --> 31:50.286
Today if you look at Microsoft, Google, Facebook,

31:50.286 --> 31:54.340
these are the kinds of places that to some degree now

31:54.340 --> 31:56.720
are doing if you like a 21st Century version

31:56.720 --> 31:59.401
of what corporate R&D used to be, where there's

31:59.401 --> 32:01.608
a little bit of actually research going on.

32:01.608 --> 32:02.921
They're are trying.

32:02.921 --> 32:04.798
We'll see how long that lasts.

32:04.798 --> 32:08.130
We'll see if they view it has valuable or if ultimately

32:08.130 --> 32:10.315
they don't see it as something that they can capture

32:10.315 --> 32:11.889
the gains from and it goes away.

32:11.889 --> 32:13.688
It often has in the past.

32:13.688 --> 32:15.971
But it's a very dynamic ecosystem,

32:15.971 --> 32:19.553
and I think that is one of the US's tremendous strengths.

32:19.553 --> 32:22.301
I do think being realistic about where it is

32:22.301 --> 32:24.384
and how our relative role

32:24.623 --> 32:27.790
in the global environment has changed.

32:28.222 --> 32:29.654
You just wanna be clear-eyed about it,

32:29.654 --> 32:31.711
and then find ways to play to those strengths,

32:31.711 --> 32:35.461
but I think there are considerable strengths.

32:35.600 --> 32:37.782
- Fred I entered into this not knowing

32:37.782 --> 32:39.872
if there's been much of a connection at all

32:39.872 --> 32:41.230
between your efforts and any

32:41.230 --> 32:43.147
of the major research universities.

32:43.147 --> 32:46.200
Certainly, my impression as a reader of news,

32:46.200 --> 32:48.029
is that the medical field in particular,

32:48.029 --> 32:51.542
there's often a tie, between university research community

32:51.542 --> 32:53.334
and the technology that comes out,

32:53.334 --> 32:56.917
but do you have any thoughts on this issue.

32:57.392 --> 32:59.830
What are the engines that are driving or maybe

32:59.830 --> 33:01.390
performing a little bit of the role

33:01.390 --> 33:05.057
that in the past was government laboratories

33:05.311 --> 33:08.465
and now is coming from some other sources?

33:08.465 --> 33:11.184
- I think is work actually coming into the room.

33:11.184 --> 33:14.832
Arati brought up a really good point, about the fact

33:14.832 --> 33:18.332
that innovation is a loosely defined term.

33:18.775 --> 33:20.084
- [Andrew] Yeah.

33:20.084 --> 33:23.584
- Innovation could be all the technologies

33:23.678 --> 33:27.595
that are developed in big national laboratories

33:27.660 --> 33:31.827
that feed into startups, that essentially make them

33:33.114 --> 33:36.281
actionable and things that people use,

33:39.094 --> 33:43.011
or it could be making them, in fact, actionable

33:43.242 --> 33:46.502
and turning them into a product that people actually use.

33:46.502 --> 33:50.585
I think that's both of the ends of that spectrum,

33:52.016 --> 33:54.611
from my perspective are innovation.

33:54.611 --> 33:56.953
One doesn't happen without the other.

33:56.953 --> 34:00.620
I don't think the fundamental aspect of what

34:03.007 --> 34:07.174
turns technology, that comes out of national labs,

34:07.251 --> 34:11.418
in turn becomes actually a product that all of us use,

34:11.594 --> 34:15.374
whether it's our iPhones or a stint in our hearts,

34:15.374 --> 34:17.922
is the notion of fear and greed

34:17.922 --> 34:21.434
which does not exist with government funding,

34:21.434 --> 34:24.517
and national laboratories, basically.

34:26.948 --> 34:29.328
But they are the beneficiary,

34:29.328 --> 34:32.588
and once you apply the ingredients of fear and greed

34:32.588 --> 34:36.338
to it, then it becomes, and if it's something

34:36.706 --> 34:39.706
that really matters and helps people

34:41.387 --> 34:44.813
then it becomes the other end of the downstream

34:44.813 --> 34:47.396
part of innovation if you will.

34:48.608 --> 34:51.567
- We have lots of labs, running around,

34:51.567 --> 34:53.234
and I guess I would,

34:55.913 --> 34:57.629
a question I haven't thought about before,

34:57.629 --> 35:00.510
so I appreciate that, and way of a look at,

35:00.510 --> 35:03.516
is one is labs can be very, very small now.

35:03.516 --> 35:07.683
The labs of the days of yore, the way of look at it is,

35:08.073 --> 35:09.703
there's very few places where,

35:09.703 --> 35:11.751
you needed a tremendous amount of resources

35:11.751 --> 35:14.668
to even build a beginning computer.

35:15.681 --> 35:17.140
You need a tremendous amount of resources

35:17.140 --> 35:19.189
to be able to do basic chemical essays,

35:19.189 --> 35:22.238
or even do DNA sequence, even before you could figure

35:22.238 --> 35:23.655
out where DNA is.

35:23.872 --> 35:28.039
Now you don't, and so the scope of what could be a lab,

35:29.300 --> 35:30.850
has shrunk tremendously and the access

35:30.850 --> 35:34.234
to be able to research things in a controlled setting

35:34.234 --> 35:36.651
is much easier at some level.

35:37.576 --> 35:39.801
What I would say then is we could re-think where

35:39.801 --> 35:42.856
that ability to combine huge amounts of resources

35:42.856 --> 35:45.356
that the public sector can do.

35:45.445 --> 35:49.528
What does a lab look like when it's a public lab?

35:51.294 --> 35:52.341
Is it a cyclotron?

35:52.341 --> 35:53.924
Is it all of space?

35:55.844 --> 35:57.731
Where you can really have that step change,

35:57.731 --> 36:01.449
where the massive resources that can be imparted

36:01.449 --> 36:03.620
to the investigation and observation

36:03.620 --> 36:05.870
of a potential development.

36:07.881 --> 36:11.007
Maybe there's a rethinking of where that focus

36:11.007 --> 36:15.007
should be from a lab setting in a basic setting.

36:15.130 --> 36:19.297
Universities are certainly dealing with that challenge,

36:19.664 --> 36:21.713
as are we and as is the government,

36:21.713 --> 36:24.195
but I hadn't, it's and interesting question.

36:24.195 --> 36:27.216
I haven't really had time to be articulate about yet,

36:27.216 --> 36:28.050
but I like it.

36:28.050 --> 36:30.133
- You make a great point.

36:30.787 --> 36:31.682
Can't remember if I mentioned in this setting,

36:31.682 --> 36:34.171
my father was a math professor,

36:34.171 --> 36:38.015
and did astronomical calculations and so that was resource

36:38.015 --> 36:40.985
intensive and he started his career working on,

36:40.985 --> 36:43.821
I think the first or second mainframe computer

36:43.821 --> 36:45.181
at Cambridge University.

36:45.181 --> 36:47.534
By the time he was at the end of his career,

36:47.534 --> 36:49.135
he would do all his calculations

36:49.135 --> 36:51.474
on the Macintosh we had at home,

36:51.474 --> 36:53.456
and it had plenty of power to do that.

36:53.456 --> 36:55.539
So you make a fair point.

36:56.911 --> 36:59.153
We have in our pockets, so many resources now,

36:59.153 --> 37:02.910
that perhaps have changed the need for something

37:02.910 --> 37:04.959
like a big laboratory structure.

37:04.959 --> 37:07.284
- Or changed what that big lab structure

37:07.284 --> 37:09.451
should then be focused on.

37:10.164 --> 37:14.093
- Lastly, before I turn to our audience questions,

37:14.093 --> 37:15.814
I'd be interested in your thoughts.

37:15.814 --> 37:17.981
Another really interesting insight that I got out

37:17.981 --> 37:20.754
of Dr. Brown's commentary, is he drew a little bit

37:20.754 --> 37:23.488
of a contrast between innovation that happens because

37:23.488 --> 37:27.655
of an accumulation of change and technology and efforts

37:28.843 --> 37:33.010
over a period of decades, which we've seen a lot of that,

37:33.022 --> 37:35.650
and there's been a lot of that at the Defense Department

37:35.650 --> 37:37.900
that has manifested itself,

37:37.911 --> 37:42.078
in what we see as the big high-profile strategic efforts,

37:43.673 --> 37:46.098
and then also he talked about the fact

37:46.098 --> 37:49.765
that when there's a break, or we lose a war,

37:49.988 --> 37:51.866
or there's some other break in the system,

37:51.866 --> 37:55.836
where the things that used to work, suddenly stop working,

37:55.836 --> 37:59.342
and then that can spur a much more rapid pace of change

37:59.342 --> 38:02.225
and we talked about quick reaction capabilities.

38:02.225 --> 38:05.523
So, it thought that was a really neat examination

38:05.523 --> 38:07.273
of both ends of the spectrum,

38:07.273 --> 38:09.677
that innovation isn't just something that accumulates

38:09.677 --> 38:11.603
and it's not just a eureka moment,

38:11.603 --> 38:13.314
it's really both, but they operate

38:13.314 --> 38:16.486
under different timeframes and deliver slightly different

38:16.486 --> 38:20.250
results and maybe attack programs of different scope.

38:20.250 --> 38:21.356
So, I would love it.

38:21.356 --> 38:22.902
I haven't really asked a question,

38:22.902 --> 38:26.378
but I would love to get your thoughts on this,

38:26.378 --> 38:28.421
this issue, and I think it gets back also

38:28.421 --> 38:30.010
to this question of teams.

38:30.010 --> 38:33.727
A small team can tackle problems of a certain size,

38:33.727 --> 38:36.937
more systemic issues, systems of systems type issues

38:36.937 --> 38:39.722
may necessarily need to be larger,

38:39.722 --> 38:42.853
but, you know, we've also seen in some of our efforts,

38:42.853 --> 38:47.020
the Department of Defense thinks are so big that they fail,

38:47.063 --> 38:49.196
and I just pictured some thoughts about

38:49.196 --> 38:52.831
how to balance these two kinds or maybe not two kinds,

38:52.831 --> 38:56.443
but these different approaches to how we seek innovation.

38:56.443 --> 38:59.693
It seems obvious you need to have both,

38:59.935 --> 39:00.911
but how you mix 'em together?

39:00.911 --> 39:04.244
How do you get the right balance or mix?

39:07.098 --> 39:10.515
- Just to add to the fast-slow dimension.

39:10.696 --> 39:14.863
Different technology areas have different inherent speeds,

39:16.630 --> 39:19.384
and so when you're thinking about what the next

39:19.384 --> 39:22.604
generation of conventional deterrent looks like,

39:22.604 --> 39:25.687
what kinetic warfare could look like,

39:25.921 --> 39:29.771
you're in a very deeply physical world with complexity

39:29.771 --> 39:33.197
that's interacting and so when we think about it,

39:33.197 --> 39:35.831
as I mentioned we think in terms of architecture

39:35.831 --> 39:38.171
and how you develop a radically different kind

39:38.171 --> 39:39.902
of architecture with the characteristics

39:39.902 --> 39:43.289
that would allow us to prevail but move rapidly,

39:43.289 --> 39:46.590
and then from there we also think about building

39:46.590 --> 39:50.340
the underlying math and modeling capabilities

39:50.455 --> 39:52.665
to do this kind of complex tasks.

39:52.665 --> 39:55.219
What I'm describing is something that I think

39:55.219 --> 39:58.310
is not gonna be technologically feasible,

39:58.310 --> 40:00.131
with the tools that we have today.

40:00.131 --> 40:01.971
So things, so all of that is gonna happen

40:01.971 --> 40:03.345
open multiple time scales.

40:03.345 --> 40:06.059
In the short term, we are doing upgrades

40:06.059 --> 40:07.773
to existing systems, that will move them

40:07.773 --> 40:09.403
in the right direction.

40:09.403 --> 40:11.805
In the medium term, we're working on new platform

40:11.805 --> 40:15.555
architectures that could be one step forward,

40:15.648 --> 40:17.947
and then in the long-term, we're building a research

40:17.947 --> 40:21.504
foundation that would allow you to be prepared

40:21.504 --> 40:24.337
for the generation after that, so,

40:24.429 --> 40:27.330
at the DARPA portfolio level, we think about all three

40:27.330 --> 40:28.751
of those dimensions.

40:28.751 --> 40:32.084
That's just the world of kinetic combat.

40:32.382 --> 40:34.786
In the world of information conflict

40:34.786 --> 40:37.152
that we're living in today, that's the business

40:37.152 --> 40:39.655
that operates at a completely different time scale.

40:39.655 --> 40:43.405
Just the nature of cyber conflict has changed

40:44.031 --> 40:46.986
so radically in the four years that I've been at DARPA,

40:46.986 --> 40:49.205
and so how you think about that is different,

40:49.205 --> 40:51.714
and then looking beyond, and those are things

40:51.714 --> 40:54.971
that DOD knows are part of national security.

40:54.971 --> 40:56.742
A part of our job is to think about the things

40:56.742 --> 40:59.852
that DOD doesn't yet think are part of national security,

40:59.852 --> 41:02.166
and so we think about what the consequences

41:02.166 --> 41:05.093
for security could be both opportunities

41:05.093 --> 41:08.296
and horrible problems, from the advances

41:08.296 --> 41:10.470
in synthetic biology and gene editing,

41:10.470 --> 41:13.268
and so there's another story there,

41:13.268 --> 41:17.435
and I think in our world of technology development,

41:18.323 --> 41:21.211
you really end up teasing apart these different time scales,

41:21.211 --> 41:24.783
because they are each relevant and from where I sit,

41:24.783 --> 41:26.517
I wanna have a deliberate portfolio

41:26.517 --> 41:30.684
in all of those dimensions in some balanced fashion.

41:32.410 --> 41:34.173
- I was gonna actually ask you a question.

41:34.173 --> 41:37.840
Do you feel like it's the smaller teams that

41:38.893 --> 41:42.087
breakin' it down, because DARPA, relative

41:42.087 --> 41:45.087
to DOD is a very small organization.

41:45.449 --> 41:46.282
- [Arati] Yeah.

41:46.282 --> 41:48.501
- With a big budget, relatively speaking.

41:48.501 --> 41:49.913
- For what we need to do and for the number

41:49.913 --> 41:51.996
of program managers, yes.

41:51.999 --> 41:56.166
The team that I, the core unit of work at DARPA happens

41:56.421 --> 41:58.435
because of our individual program managers.

41:58.435 --> 42:00.443
Now they build teams around themselves,

42:00.443 --> 42:02.156
as subject matter experts to brew

42:02.156 --> 42:04.079
and to figure out where they should go,

42:04.079 --> 42:06.212
and then ultimately a performer community,

42:06.212 --> 42:08.852
once they set out a program objective,

42:08.852 --> 42:11.780
and earn the funding to go do that program,

42:11.780 --> 42:15.685
then they start building a community of R&D people

42:15.685 --> 42:17.898
and companies and universities and labs,

42:17.898 --> 42:20.065
and that becomes the team.

42:21.074 --> 42:24.439
But it all starts, if you're really gonna do

42:24.439 --> 42:28.328
high impact things, you have to be able to take risks.

42:28.328 --> 42:30.287
That is not what committees do, right?

42:30.287 --> 42:32.881
Committees are designed to squeeze risks out,

42:32.881 --> 42:35.680
but we have to find ways, and we do find ways

42:35.680 --> 42:37.853
to empower individuals to try things

42:37.853 --> 42:40.940
that lots of other people are gonna think are nutty,

42:40.940 --> 42:43.787
but that's the only way you really expose yourself

42:43.787 --> 42:45.706
to big high impact opportunities.

42:45.706 --> 42:48.551
I think, I completely agree that you have to start

42:48.551 --> 42:49.970
with that nucleus.

42:49.970 --> 42:52.205
- And the high level sponsorship that they have.

42:52.205 --> 42:53.252
- To give more room.

42:53.252 --> 42:55.380
- That you care about them.

42:55.380 --> 42:56.297
- Yep, yep.

42:56.553 --> 42:58.989
- That they know somebody's caring about this,

42:58.989 --> 43:00.406
and it's genuine.

43:00.463 --> 43:02.488
- Yeah, it's caring.
- The powers that be.

43:02.488 --> 43:04.768
And genuine, and then I find a lot of what I do

43:04.768 --> 43:07.025
is like keep everyone else out of their way,

43:07.025 --> 43:09.054
so that they can actually do their job.

43:09.054 --> 43:09.887
(laughter)

43:09.887 --> 43:10.723
It's like more getting out of the way --

43:10.723 --> 43:11.556
- [Fred] Interference.

43:11.556 --> 43:14.459
- Than doing anything for them, right.

43:14.459 --> 43:16.342
- Well I wanna open up at this point to audience questions.

43:16.342 --> 43:18.200
I haven't left as much time as I meant to,

43:18.200 --> 43:20.200
but we go lots of hands.

43:20.830 --> 43:24.163
I'd like to start here in the front row.

43:27.267 --> 43:28.943
- [Man On The Right] Thank you.

43:28.943 --> 43:29.776
Tony Spedaro.

43:29.776 --> 43:31.445
I have been recently reading a biography

43:31.445 --> 43:33.153
of Sir David Stirling, the founder

43:33.153 --> 43:34.912
of the Special Air Service.

43:34.912 --> 43:37.791
I was struck by the fact that most of his teachers

43:37.791 --> 43:40.803
and supervisors commented, lamented, accurately,

43:40.803 --> 43:43.355
that he had an unbounded and an unfounded confidence

43:43.355 --> 43:44.481
in his own abilities,

43:44.481 --> 43:45.314
(laughter)

43:45.314 --> 43:48.814
and a total disdain for position and rank.

43:50.161 --> 43:53.463
So let me ask, what you think the personality traits

43:53.463 --> 43:56.443
an innovator needs to succeed in a highly structured

43:56.443 --> 43:59.526
organization, such as the Department.

44:00.942 --> 44:02.116
- That's really funny.

44:02.116 --> 44:03.657
Well on my list of what I look for

44:03.657 --> 44:06.248
in a great DARPA program manager, one of them

44:06.248 --> 44:08.588
is confidence, without arrogance.

44:08.588 --> 44:10.928
You know, really if you're milktoast,

44:10.928 --> 44:13.315
you're not gonna get anything done in my world,

44:13.315 --> 44:15.982
so you need that ability to have

44:16.212 --> 44:18.684
a strong opinion about something,

44:18.684 --> 44:21.268
but, you know, my guys don't go into a lab

44:21.268 --> 44:23.191
and they're not individual contributors.

44:23.191 --> 44:25.240
They have to get something big to happen

44:25.240 --> 44:27.199
by bringing a whole community up,

44:27.199 --> 44:29.478
and then they have to get someone in the Defense Department

44:29.478 --> 44:33.145
to believe it and try it, and then go there,

44:34.075 --> 44:37.793
and I actually think arrogance is an impediment

44:37.793 --> 44:39.293
to achieving that.

44:39.432 --> 44:41.854
That's a fine balance, but I think

44:41.854 --> 44:44.881
those personal characteristics are enormously important

44:44.881 --> 44:49.048
in succeeding when you're trying to do something disruptive.

44:50.065 --> 44:52.321
- I think that really points to

44:52.321 --> 44:54.663
that not-invented-here syndrome,

44:54.663 --> 44:55.704
that I was talking about.

44:55.704 --> 44:59.871
When you get to a point where you feel like you are

45:01.261 --> 45:05.002
really a great organization, that happens by the way,

45:05.002 --> 45:05.965
when you get big.

45:05.965 --> 45:09.893
It think that's probably one of the success criterias

45:09.893 --> 45:13.526
with DARPA, is essentially cycling through --

45:13.526 --> 45:14.359
- Yeah.

45:14.359 --> 45:17.192
- Through teams and freshening up.

45:17.289 --> 45:20.860
That not-invented-here syndrome actually does set in.

45:20.860 --> 45:22.225
Arrogance sets in.

45:22.225 --> 45:25.540
- I strongly believe that innovation equals risk.

45:25.540 --> 45:28.219
I mean that the points that the Secretary brought up earlier

45:28.219 --> 45:32.060
that innovation comes from people willing to take risks,

45:32.060 --> 45:34.567
and I found it, I mean, I've worked in the government

45:34.567 --> 45:37.994
and this may be a little short-sighted on my part.

45:37.994 --> 45:39.379
You know many people are like, "Congress is gonna

45:39.379 --> 45:42.683
"yell at us," or "If I'm made to do this,

45:42.683 --> 45:44.233
"I may lose my job," and one of the biggest problems,

45:44.233 --> 45:46.451
we have in the government is that no one loses their job.

45:46.451 --> 45:48.451
So I've often said, "Like why are you so worried

45:48.451 --> 45:51.035
"about losing a job, that you cannot lose."

45:51.035 --> 45:52.377
That was back in my government days,

45:52.377 --> 45:55.877
when I did lose my job in an election, so,

45:56.639 --> 45:58.683
that ability, and we've talked about it,

45:58.683 --> 46:00.905
you need a strong leader, clearance from the top,

46:00.905 --> 46:03.488
or the ability to do your work,

46:03.720 --> 46:05.501
and that is exceedingly important when a leader

46:05.501 --> 46:08.001
can open that pathway for you,

46:08.557 --> 46:10.309
but the people you wanna bring in, are the ones

46:10.309 --> 46:11.998
who wanna open that pathway themselves,

46:11.998 --> 46:14.387
and they say, "Alright, so what if it doesn't work.

46:14.387 --> 46:16.727
"That's why I went into a scientific discipline."

46:16.727 --> 46:20.894
I coach my daughter's 11-year old basketball team,

46:22.009 --> 46:23.752
and one of the things I asked them is,

46:23.752 --> 46:26.835
"How many times," they were afraid of shooting the ball,

46:26.835 --> 46:28.276
because they wanted to make sure they we're gonna make it.

46:28.276 --> 46:31.472
I said, "How many times to you think Lebron James misses?",

46:31.472 --> 46:34.061
and he misses 40 percent of the time,

46:34.061 --> 46:36.781
and he's the best, arguably, most fans,

46:36.781 --> 46:39.198
the best who has ever played.

46:39.662 --> 46:43.213
That ability to just step forward and do it,

46:43.213 --> 46:46.463
is exceedingly important, and expressed

46:47.109 --> 46:48.690
in that autobiography, and it's expressed with

46:48.690 --> 46:51.319
a number of the people at all levels within the government,

46:51.319 --> 46:53.986
and that needs to be encouraged.

46:54.499 --> 46:57.499
- I'm gonna come over here to the...

46:57.548 --> 46:59.048
The mic is coming.

46:59.206 --> 47:00.039
(laughter)

47:00.039 --> 47:00.872
- [Man] Can you stand up.

47:00.872 --> 47:02.338
- [Woman] Sure, Sharon Weinberger.

47:02.338 --> 47:04.380
I wanted to talk for a second about the relationship

47:04.380 --> 47:07.054
between the science and technology infrastructure of DOD

47:07.054 --> 47:08.517
and the senior Pentagon leadership,

47:08.517 --> 47:10.525
taking the example of DARPA.

47:10.525 --> 47:12.570
If we look at some of the examples cited here today,

47:12.570 --> 47:15.412
like ARPANET, well that grew out of the 1961 assignment

47:15.412 --> 47:18.545
written by Dr. Brown, and command in control.

47:18.545 --> 47:21.621
Stealth technology, and drones, once can argue,

47:21.621 --> 47:25.214
grew out of the Vietnam war, which was re-invented

47:25.214 --> 47:27.429
in the Tactical Technology Office.

47:27.429 --> 47:30.311
So all of these came from very high level assignments

47:30.311 --> 47:32.820
within the Pentagon, even the White House.

47:32.820 --> 47:35.909
Do you have concerns today about the relationship

47:35.909 --> 47:38.460
between DARPA and the senior Pentagon leadership

47:38.460 --> 47:39.419
and even the White House?

47:39.419 --> 47:40.697
Do you feel that you're still

47:40.697 --> 47:42.829
getting those high-level assignments?

47:42.829 --> 47:44.171
I mean you mentioned about reporting now

47:44.171 --> 47:46.881
to an Assistant Secretary, and you may all be

47:46.881 --> 47:49.474
on the same page, but long-term, do you worry

47:49.474 --> 47:50.823
that there's a cut-off between DARPA

47:50.823 --> 47:52.990
and the senior leadership?

47:53.623 --> 47:57.456
- I don't think that we're cut off in any way.

47:58.434 --> 48:02.101
But I'm not sure I agree with your construct

48:02.123 --> 48:05.594
that all those great things came from top-down directions.

48:05.594 --> 48:08.724
Now Dr. Brown, can argue with me about that,

48:08.724 --> 48:11.021
and I will accede to his view.

48:11.021 --> 48:14.499
But just to take the ARPANET, there are so many stories

48:14.499 --> 48:17.182
about the way the ARPANET happened,

48:17.182 --> 48:20.527
and as far as I can tell, for something that complex,

48:20.527 --> 48:23.467
many things had to be happening simultaneously,

48:23.467 --> 48:26.467
so yes, there were top-down military

48:26.577 --> 48:29.004
and national security drivers and yes,

48:29.004 --> 48:30.935
there were some very bottoms up,

48:30.935 --> 48:33.794
there was a thread in the development of the ARPANET

48:33.794 --> 48:36.201
and the internet that was about freeing human beings

48:36.201 --> 48:38.138
to interact with each other in completely new

48:38.138 --> 48:39.399
and creative ways.

48:39.399 --> 48:41.438
That's pretty different than thinking about surviving

48:41.438 --> 48:43.071
nuclear war and command in control.

48:43.071 --> 48:45.575
Those can all be true simultaneously,

48:45.575 --> 48:47.978
and to take a more recent example, I was talking

48:47.978 --> 48:49.990
with some Sebastian Thrun recently,

48:49.990 --> 48:52.124
who was the head of the team that won

48:52.124 --> 48:54.997
the self-driving car challenge, the second time we did it,

48:54.997 --> 48:56.915
'cause no one won the first time we did it.

48:56.915 --> 48:59.923
This was a decade ago, and his narrative

48:59.923 --> 49:01.691
has always been that this is how we're gonna make

49:01.691 --> 49:04.774
driving cars safer and it's gonna be,

49:05.291 --> 49:07.101
you know, it's gonna free the American driver,

49:07.101 --> 49:09.254
and it's all gonna be awesome, and very cool.

49:09.254 --> 49:11.732
DOD did it because we wanted to be able to prevent

49:11.732 --> 49:15.232
fatalities overseas as we were delivering,

49:15.694 --> 49:18.444
doing logistics in a time of war.

49:18.477 --> 49:20.256
Those things can all be true at the same time,

49:20.256 --> 49:22.035
and I think actually, that's sort of the richness

49:22.035 --> 49:24.503
of it, is that it takes all those different motivations

49:24.503 --> 49:28.086
coming together and I see it as a much more

49:28.604 --> 49:30.218
multi-dimensional set of factors

49:30.218 --> 49:33.968
that drive any of these technologies forward.

49:34.937 --> 49:36.187
- Welcome here.

49:36.317 --> 49:40.234
- [Woman] Hi, Kathleen Delano, I am CEO of PMIC

49:41.501 --> 49:44.834
and an unwitting binge science advocate,

49:46.516 --> 49:48.349
evangelist for US R&D.

49:49.271 --> 49:51.990
I did a very small study for DOD and NIST

49:51.990 --> 49:54.907
about a very small issue, OMB 12-12

49:56.717 --> 50:00.884
restrictive travel policies, being applied to US S&T.

50:02.474 --> 50:05.610
The findings so alarmed me as an American patriot,

50:05.610 --> 50:09.450
that I spent eight months doing the strategic communications

50:09.450 --> 50:12.533
hashtag letters let our scientist go,

50:12.565 --> 50:16.482
so that people, the everyday people understood,

50:17.749 --> 50:20.630
you wanna know how much ENIAC, the first digital computer

50:20.630 --> 50:21.880
cost, $483,000.

50:23.261 --> 50:26.856
Do you wanna know the ROI on the Human Genome Project,

50:26.856 --> 50:28.189
140,000 percent.

50:29.276 --> 50:33.443
So what I'm concerned about, when I hear, I embrace,

50:34.125 --> 50:36.357
but I would like to do a video with all of the members

50:36.357 --> 50:38.661
of the Defense Innovation Board, doin' a high-five

50:38.661 --> 50:42.466
to Ash Carter, particle physicist, who's mentored

50:42.466 --> 50:46.383
by the Manhattan Project that everybody serves,

50:46.624 --> 50:49.418
thanks for the basic research that undergirds

50:49.418 --> 50:50.251
our economy.

50:50.251 --> 50:54.306
So my fear in going to this, we already have the internet,

50:54.306 --> 50:56.754
we already have some of these things,

50:56.754 --> 50:59.971
is what if China invents the next internet?

50:59.971 --> 51:03.734
So I fear the basic research only the government

51:03.734 --> 51:05.317
can be speculative.

51:06.112 --> 51:09.374
Every single subject matter expert cited a problem-rich

51:09.374 --> 51:11.457
environment as a concern.

51:12.257 --> 51:14.929
I have never had a hundred percent (mumbles) approval,

51:14.929 --> 51:17.732
so could you address how to bring,

51:17.732 --> 51:20.455
take the light off the bushel, of innovation

51:20.455 --> 51:24.622
already happening in labs and that fulsome problem

51:25.145 --> 51:28.071
rich environment basic research contributes to our economy

51:28.071 --> 51:29.821
and national defense?

51:29.831 --> 51:32.185
- Let me just to jump, but I don't think

51:32.185 --> 51:36.352
anyone on this panel would argue against more basic science

51:37.879 --> 51:40.654
and more investigation at the level you're preaching

51:40.654 --> 51:44.321
to the converted, for the most part on that.

51:44.374 --> 51:46.505
And in the end, it's up to the American people

51:46.505 --> 51:50.672
(mumbles) to what the resources go to.

51:50.814 --> 51:53.774
What I would say though, is to take on the last part

51:53.774 --> 51:56.246
of your question there about what goes on in the labs,

51:56.246 --> 51:57.913
in getting that out.

51:58.651 --> 52:00.005
We're spending a fair amount of time trying

52:00.005 --> 52:03.358
to think about why is it that there's all this,

52:03.358 --> 52:07.304
I would argue, trapped IP living in government labs,

52:07.304 --> 52:11.067
government facilities, that the America taxpayer,

52:11.067 --> 52:13.863
has invested in, that government officials have created

52:13.863 --> 52:16.458
and scientist have created, and what it comes down to

52:16.458 --> 52:19.046
is that, that's not unique to the US government.

52:19.046 --> 52:20.963
It's unique to any lab.

52:21.177 --> 52:24.315
Not unique to any lab, it's pervasive to all labs,

52:24.315 --> 52:27.648
which is scientists often think in terms

52:27.736 --> 52:31.542
of a technology development, and the community

52:31.542 --> 52:34.026
thinks in terms of capability.

52:34.026 --> 52:36.369
You're not interested to know, I got this membrane.

52:36.369 --> 52:38.580
You're interested to know, hey, I could make

52:38.580 --> 52:41.825
potentially make money desalinating water at half the price.

52:41.825 --> 52:44.617
That translation from technology to capability,

52:44.617 --> 52:46.254
right now we spend a lot of time, waiting for the

52:46.254 --> 52:48.171
serendipitous epiphany.

52:48.217 --> 52:50.929
The businessman happened to walk by the university

52:50.929 --> 52:53.515
board meeting and they heard about the oh, you did what

52:53.515 --> 52:55.098
with this material?

52:55.195 --> 52:56.869
Maybe I can do something and the alumni

52:56.869 --> 52:57.864
happened to be there.

52:57.864 --> 53:00.420
We feel like it comes from this epiphany,

53:00.420 --> 53:03.367
and I think that there's a lot of work that we can do

53:03.367 --> 53:06.200
to build better structure to that.

53:06.458 --> 53:09.421
Asking Los Alamos to figure out what's the next big

53:09.421 --> 53:11.033
business opportunity that's currently sitting

53:11.033 --> 53:12.784
on your IP shelf, is not why people

53:12.784 --> 53:15.117
went to Los Alamos to study,

53:15.252 --> 53:18.226
and asking them to do that, is, I think, a mistake,

53:18.226 --> 53:19.974
and misguided resources.

53:19.974 --> 53:23.714
Asking them to help others figure that out, is,

53:23.714 --> 53:25.514
and what we can serve in that role,

53:25.514 --> 53:27.470
that's an untapped resource, not just

53:27.470 --> 53:30.648
at the public sector side, but in academia and the like.

53:30.648 --> 53:34.553
But that bridge between technology and capability,

53:34.553 --> 53:36.937
is exceedingly, DARPA's excellent at it,

53:36.937 --> 53:40.011
is exceedingly important, and I do think spending

53:40.011 --> 53:43.428
more time on that would be very valuable.

53:45.716 --> 53:47.883
- Well I think we have time for one more question.

53:47.883 --> 53:49.216
Wanna come here.

53:52.438 --> 53:54.989
- [Man] Paul Erbon, independent consultant.

53:54.989 --> 53:57.041
Question, mainly for Dr. Prabhakar,

53:57.041 --> 53:59.420
but anyone else as well, and it relates to the

53:59.420 --> 54:02.920
so-called valley of death, and so projects

54:02.972 --> 54:06.857
initiatives that don't have, don't transition over.

54:06.857 --> 54:09.151
So unless the answer to my question,

54:09.151 --> 54:11.834
is we're already doing it, and you don't know about it,

54:11.834 --> 54:14.834
is what would you think about a PPP,

54:14.841 --> 54:16.964
private public partnership structure,

54:16.964 --> 54:21.131
or a 501c3, nonprofit where this (mumbles) of embedded

54:21.940 --> 54:25.023
intellectual capital can be offloaded

54:25.741 --> 54:29.324
outside the government's having to fund it,

54:29.424 --> 54:33.591
but still we buy additional time for the social public gain,

54:34.439 --> 54:35.439
as you will.

54:36.698 --> 54:38.827
- I'll just jump because that is the raison d'etre

54:38.827 --> 54:40.034
of what SRI is --

54:40.034 --> 54:40.867
- Yeah.

54:40.867 --> 54:43.539
- We're a 5013c, specifically focused on applied R&D,

54:43.539 --> 54:46.090
originally generated, often originally generated

54:46.090 --> 54:48.052
in the government or the public sector space

54:48.052 --> 54:50.455
to give it that time to get to prototype and the like,

54:50.455 --> 54:53.739
and it is, there shouldn't be any more of them.

54:53.739 --> 54:55.663
There should be just be one really, really, really big one.

54:55.663 --> 54:57.913
(laughter)

54:59.760 --> 55:00.593
- [Andrew] Completely unbiased comment.

55:00.593 --> 55:01.699
- Completely unbiased.

55:01.699 --> 55:04.373
I mean that's an academic empirical approach to it.

55:04.373 --> 55:05.206
(laughter)

55:05.206 --> 55:07.518
But whoever VP came up with that idea,

55:07.518 --> 55:09.239
should be given a lot of money.

55:09.239 --> 55:12.989
But jokes aside, it is, that valley of death,

55:13.578 --> 55:16.245
it has shrunk, in terms of time.

55:18.716 --> 55:20.686
Not necessarily in terms of resources made to do it,

55:20.686 --> 55:22.733
and when you watch like a Google X or Alphabet X

55:22.733 --> 55:25.235
or whatever we call it now, in some of the labs,

55:25.235 --> 55:28.141
Microsoft's labs trying to back into,

55:28.141 --> 55:31.609
can I get earlier on in the technology creation cycle?

55:31.609 --> 55:33.776
We're seeing some of that.

55:33.845 --> 55:38.012
Specific to CSIS, and the discussion relative to defense,

55:38.229 --> 55:40.979
here today, I think I would argue

55:41.158 --> 55:43.908
there's now two valleys of death.

55:44.649 --> 55:45.989
One is the one that we traditionally think

55:45.989 --> 55:47.946
of how do you go from basic science to an actually product

55:47.946 --> 55:51.863
that can be used either by an operator or user.

55:52.377 --> 55:53.965
The other is a valley of death

55:53.965 --> 55:56.548
between defense and commercial,

55:57.683 --> 55:59.890
and we've often thought about, we've talked about

55:59.890 --> 56:04.057
the stories, SRI was part of, (mumbles) of these.

56:04.684 --> 56:07.941
Others served in these roles, of okay we have this idea,

56:07.941 --> 56:10.325
how can we not buy a whole bunch of mainframe computers

56:10.325 --> 56:12.626
for every academic who wants to do a DARPA project,

56:12.626 --> 56:15.133
let's link 'em all together and create the ARPANET

56:15.133 --> 56:17.849
and then on it goes, is that linear approach

56:17.849 --> 56:20.290
that oh the valley of death is getting it from a defense

56:20.290 --> 56:23.471
application, or government application to a commercial one,

56:23.471 --> 56:26.804
or from basic science to productization?

56:27.145 --> 56:29.213
I say the second area we talked about,

56:29.213 --> 56:32.223
a commercial to defense is as innovations

56:32.223 --> 56:34.853
happen in the commercial space, the valley of death

56:34.853 --> 56:37.653
isn't one that lacks resources or venture capitalists

56:37.653 --> 56:38.781
don't want to invest in it,

56:38.781 --> 56:42.364
it's we have so many processes, procedures,

56:42.497 --> 56:45.688
scientists who can't travel, export control rules,

56:45.688 --> 56:48.235
national identities of whoever's doing the research,

56:48.235 --> 56:52.338
or whatever it may be, that limit defense's ability

56:52.338 --> 56:55.088
to take a commercial application,

56:55.429 --> 56:56.690
and if it works 80 percent of the time,

56:56.690 --> 56:58.025
it needs to work 100 percent of the time

56:58.025 --> 56:59.343
in defense, so there's other things that

56:59.343 --> 57:01.603
aren't just acquisitions, there's risk profiles

57:01.603 --> 57:04.824
and the like need to be addressed, bridging that gap,

57:04.824 --> 57:07.703
I think would be a major, major innovation

57:07.703 --> 57:10.462
in the organization of the defense industry,

57:10.462 --> 57:13.511
the Department of Defense and the government

57:13.511 --> 57:15.632
is the ability to bring in those commercial applications

57:15.632 --> 57:19.799
and apply them to defense needs, but it's a big valley

57:20.120 --> 57:21.703
of death right now.

57:23.736 --> 57:24.750
- Well, unfortunately, I'm gonna end up

57:24.750 --> 57:25.791
I guess, making the last comment,

57:25.791 --> 57:27.466
which is a little bit of a foul as a moderator,

57:27.466 --> 57:30.576
but I do have to say, when we had our event

57:30.576 --> 57:32.474
a few weeks ago, with the department

57:32.474 --> 57:35.444
sponsored on third-offset, Peter Singer was here

57:35.444 --> 57:36.533
on our last panel.

57:36.533 --> 57:37.869
He made a really interesting point,

57:37.869 --> 57:38.786
which is --

57:38.907 --> 57:39.740
- [Peter] All Peters do.

57:39.740 --> 57:40.693
(laughter)

57:40.693 --> 57:41.703
- All Peters do.

57:41.703 --> 57:44.086
Which is that when we talk about you have to be willing

57:44.086 --> 57:46.220
to accept failure, right, the valley of death

57:46.220 --> 57:49.656
in some respects is a necessary part of the system.

57:49.656 --> 57:51.041
We have to be willing to say yes,

57:51.041 --> 57:53.095
we invested some million-something, we took it somewhere,

57:53.095 --> 57:56.996
it wasn't a total wipeout, but it's not worth continuing.

57:56.996 --> 57:59.501
The real problem, I think, arises when your

57:59.501 --> 58:02.458
grim reaper, to stretch the analogy,

58:02.458 --> 58:05.559
isn't making the right analysis, isn't picking

58:05.559 --> 58:08.735
the right winners and losers in the system.

58:08.735 --> 58:12.392
But obviously, it's great the more you can get into product.

58:12.392 --> 58:14.002
Well we are pat our time.

58:14.002 --> 58:15.598
I apologize a little bit for that,

58:15.598 --> 58:17.220
but it's been a great discussion.

58:17.220 --> 58:18.094
Please join me in thanking...

58:18.094 --> 58:19.684
(applause)