WEBVTT 00:13.490 --> 00:13.640 What. 00:15.230 --> 00:20.330 Also. Good morning never one and welcome to today's state of 00:20.330 --> 00:21.260 rates events. 00:22.290 --> 00:25.460 In the run-up to world press freedom day which will be may third 00:25.770 --> 00:29.400 of the topic for today's event is media freedom in china. 00:30.350 --> 00:33.540 My name is peter hain um time director of the office of chinese 00:33.540 --> 00:36.080 and Mongolian for years that the department of state. 00:36.830 --> 00:40.470 And I want to thank you all for joining us whether in person 00:40.600 --> 00:41.580 or online. 00:42.110 --> 00:45.060 And like to especially thakur palace who've traveled from around 00:45.060 --> 00:46.560 the country to be with us today. 00:47.290 --> 00:50.920 I want them out a note that we'd expected that james follows 00:50.920 --> 00:54.230 sort of from the allied it here a today the unfortunately has 00:54.230 --> 00:58.330 been called to jury duty saw mother another civic responsibility. 00:58.420 --> 00:59.850 That's gonna take them away from us today. 01:00.360 --> 01:03.300 I'm about to we appreciate having are the three palace with us. 01:04.130 --> 01:06.770 Today's panel discussion will be interactive. 01:07.490 --> 01:11.350 A be taking questions from our live audience and from our online 01:11.380 --> 01:12.310 audience as well. 01:13.430 --> 01:15.230 We have a team monitoring twitter. 01:15.860 --> 01:19.270 So for those out than the twitter. First please submit questions 01:19.270 --> 01:24.360 in any time using the hash tag. It's a up our own state of rights. 01:25.410 --> 01:28.420 That's hash tag calmed state of rights. 01:29.360 --> 01:33.160 Today's event is also being broadcast on the website human rights 01:33.300 --> 01:34.250 da kind of. 01:34.880 --> 01:40.210 Forward slash state over rights to human rights died goes forward 01:40.210 --> 01:42.100 slash the state of rights. 01:43.000 --> 01:47.240 And without further ado. I would like to introduce today's moderator 01:47.700 --> 01:51.520 assistant secretary of state for democracy human rights and labor. 01:52.070 --> 01:56.340 Tom all all ski to make some introductory remarks physicist record. 01:56.340 --> 01:58.050 All ski. Plungers. 02:01.270 --> 02:03.820 Thank you so much and think you're everybody for I'm. 02:04.390 --> 02:09.390 Joining us today for this important event. We're um keir a today 02:09.420 --> 02:14.040 and a as this week in fact of the state department to celebrate 02:14.110 --> 02:14.790 press freedom. 02:15.590 --> 02:18.470 Every time around it's a every year around this time. 02:19.040 --> 02:24.520 Uh we we do is this we reflect on and I'm renew our commitment 02:24.960 --> 02:26.600 to to the promotion of. 02:27.140 --> 02:30.900 Free press freedom around the world. We honor the sacrifices 02:31.300 --> 02:36.010 made by journalists who have lost their lives for been imprisoned 02:36.460 --> 02:40.740 in the line of reporting and we call on governments to recognize 02:40.770 --> 02:45.250 the universal human rights to freedom of expression both online 02:45.550 --> 02:46.240 and offline. 02:47.120 --> 02:50.620 Come later today is you've heard the state department will launch 02:50.720 --> 02:55.230 our fourth annual free the press campaign is something that's 02:55.230 --> 02:58.780 very very important to us although apparently it's not enough 02:58.780 --> 03:00.500 of an excuse to get a victory do take. 03:01.490 --> 03:06.680 Um this is an initiative where we we profile um imperilled reporters 03:06.680 --> 03:10.450 are media outlets and sensor Gore Tufts. Of course threatened 03:10.640 --> 03:14.850 disappear for otherwise. We're pressed for committing feet egregious 03:14.850 --> 03:17.200 crime of reporting the truth. 03:17.950 --> 03:22.070 Each day this week that department spokesperson will cite two 03:22.120 --> 03:26.600 or three cases of reporters or media outlets that are under threat 03:26.650 --> 03:31.580 from sample today. We will be profiling recently convicted chinese 03:31.860 --> 03:36.900 veteran journalist value a respected veteran reporter recently 03:36.900 --> 03:43.410 sentenced to seven years in prison after a closed trial on charges 03:43.450 --> 03:46.620 of leaking state secrets to foreign news outlet. 03:47.130 --> 03:53.800 We will post go use and other profiles on. Www.Jackson.Army.Mil 03:54.220 --> 03:57.460 will tweet about these cases using the cash attack apc freak 03:57.460 --> 03:57.990 the price. 03:58.800 --> 04:02.560 Thing courage of all of you to share their stories with your 04:02.590 --> 04:04.910 community retweet them blossom. 04:05.420 --> 04:06.360 Most um or. 04:06.900 --> 04:10.640 If you must revert that old-fashioned mode of communication. 04:11.180 --> 04:13.220 Simply tell your family and friends. 04:14.380 --> 04:18.300 Purpose of this campaign is simple to speak out for reporters 04:18.350 --> 04:21.960 who cannot speak out for themselves to call on governments to 04:21.960 --> 04:26.130 protect the right to freedom of expression and to emphasize our 04:26.130 --> 04:29.620 own commitment to promoting these goals around the world. 04:30.260 --> 04:33.790 The secretary of state kerry said didn't jenny worry at the open 04:33.790 --> 04:36.290 forum and journalists security in this building. 04:36.810 --> 04:41.450 Freedom of the press whether symbolized by pencil at 10 a camera 04:41.750 --> 04:45.030 or microphone is under siege purposefully. 04:45.650 --> 04:48.750 And that is because some people some groups even some governments 04:48.750 --> 04:52.800 want to dictate the truth wanted to find it one to hide what 04:52.800 --> 04:56.920 we would know to be the truce and obviously we cannot and will 04:56.920 --> 05:02.300 not let that happen especially after the operation Paris on january seventh. 05:03.250 --> 05:05.310 No that brings us to china. 05:06.170 --> 05:08.900 Add only to tell you that reporting in china. 05:09.410 --> 05:13.580 He is an important job something that needs to be done right 05:13.980 --> 05:16.860 but also extraordinarily difficult to a. 05:17.400 --> 05:22.000 Current restrictions placed on journalists both foreign especially local. 05:22.640 --> 05:23.600 Are making it harder. 05:24.140 --> 05:25.460 For journalists to do their. 05:26.010 --> 05:27.010 Important shots. 05:27.920 --> 05:31.570 The chinese people only American people want to need to understand 05:31.570 --> 05:34.310 each other we study into business and each other's countries. 05:34.840 --> 05:38.440 We have deep people to people ties tribalism journalism is thus 05:38.750 --> 05:40.220 an incredibly important part. 05:40.790 --> 05:42.780 Of our relationship with china. 05:43.330 --> 05:47.260 Robust upon us media coverage of each other's country is critical 05:47.680 --> 05:50.220 to helping us understand each others. We confront. 05:50.720 --> 05:53.420 Challenges and opportunities together. 05:53.960 --> 05:58.340 And I would note here is that chinese journalists have completely 05:58.340 --> 06:04.400 free access to the United States. Um chinese officials have completely 06:04.400 --> 06:08.150 free access to get their message across to the American people. 06:08.720 --> 06:12.030 And if you think about it in practical terms of their wherever 06:12.470 --> 06:17.610 in a serious I'm crisis between the United States and china there 06:17.610 --> 06:22.360 would be in a belts because the American people would have complete 06:22.520 --> 06:25.410 access to the viewpoints of the chinese government and the chinese 06:25.410 --> 06:29.440 people the chinese people would not happened are current restrictions 06:29.720 --> 06:34.540 the same access to our point of you um and to what the United 06:34.540 --> 06:37.050 States government and people a are saying. 06:40.400 --> 06:45.430 So. All of this is happening um but at the same time. There are 06:45.540 --> 06:49.890 other trans pushing in the other direction people in china people 06:49.890 --> 06:53.710 all around the world are are more empowered perhaps today than 06:53.710 --> 06:58.800 they ever happen by access to social media to modes of communication 06:59.170 --> 07:02.050 that are difficult for governments to controlled perhaps that 07:02.330 --> 07:06.400 partially explains. I'm very uh a sharp hirsch facts that were 07:06.400 --> 07:09.270 saying from the chinese government today. 07:10.640 --> 07:15.320 Um to digital platforms Sin trying of around the world of empower 07:15.320 --> 07:18.730 people to shape a enter share their own stories and that's something 07:18.730 --> 07:20.490 that we want to and corruption. 07:21.170 --> 07:24.010 The great American journalist Edward mara. Once observed that 07:24.380 --> 07:28.270 we'll crucial like in the international exchange is the last 07:28.270 --> 07:33.090 three feet which is bridge by personal contact one person talking 07:33.180 --> 07:33.760 to another. 07:34.310 --> 07:37.140 To date the internet allows us to bridge that to fight far more 07:37.140 --> 07:41.280 readily and in the past millions of chinese and American citizens 07:41.570 --> 07:45.800 have the potential to connect and to enhance their mutual understanding 07:46.200 --> 07:47.510 of one another. 07:48.260 --> 07:51.060 That was a government official I find this important and exciting 07:51.060 --> 07:54.300 because it allows for all sorts of conversations to happen. 07:54.300 --> 07:57.630 It wants individuals can talk with governments governments can 07:57.630 --> 07:58.800 talk with individuals. 08:00.120 --> 08:00.560 And and it. 08:01.750 --> 08:03.090 Again and has this. 08:03.660 --> 08:05.800 Exchange continues if it is a lot of. 08:06.730 --> 08:10.140 China will be a more stable dynamic and prosperous nations. 08:11.160 --> 08:14.250 And the United States will be more secure. 08:15.210 --> 08:15.840 In the world. 08:17.060 --> 08:21.100 On a panel today to discuss these issues. We have a number of 08:21.100 --> 08:24.720 distinguished journalists who know this subject better than just 08:24.720 --> 08:25.670 about anybody else. 08:26.390 --> 08:30.390 We have william lamb the washington post china correspondent 08:30.540 --> 08:31.400 based in. Beijing. 08:34.070 --> 08:36.680 We have melissa chan um who. 08:37.200 --> 08:41.780 Was a bit el to zero a in china and is snell san Francisco core 08:41.780 --> 08:44.410 started an African PC or a america. 08:44.990 --> 08:48.260 And last but not least Kathleen mccall fun. And journalist who 08:48.260 --> 08:51.460 has been based in china for more than a decade chris covered 08:51.460 --> 08:55.550 everything from labor abuses to politics and social people uh 08:55.580 --> 08:56.300 in that country. 08:57.110 --> 09:01.640 So I wanna thank you. Well uh for joining us a today a freer 09:01.640 --> 09:06.330 insights and for sharing your uh expertise and I think now we're 09:06.330 --> 09:09.200 gonna turn things over um to you. 09:09.790 --> 09:13.350 Um and maybe all starch that I manage when you hear in a second 09:13.350 --> 09:17.960 that maybe start with just a question for a for you will have um. 09:18.670 --> 09:22.730 We're I think we're gonna spend a good bit of time here talking 09:22.730 --> 09:28.360 about your experiences has foreign correspondents uh in china 09:28.390 --> 09:31.520 and the difficulties that you and some of your colleagues have 09:31.520 --> 09:33.840 faced the but but I think we should probably star. 09:34.480 --> 09:37.580 Um by focusing a bowl bid on V. 09:38.090 --> 09:42.030 Um the troubles intra-day elation is that a the chinese journalists 09:42.080 --> 09:45.860 a are facing a maybe if you could talk a little bit of Alps the 09:45.860 --> 09:50.050 trend line over the last few years of goes for chinese journalists 09:50.050 --> 09:53.850 working for chinese publications. But also those um who work 09:53.850 --> 09:55.840 with foreign correspondents. Thank. You. 10:00.320 --> 10:06.030 The the Great. Um the strictest wanna say thanks for having us 10:06.060 --> 10:09.570 and I'm in this one to think mistake to promote for raising this 10:09.570 --> 10:12.050 as a as a nation it's just incredibly. 10:12.930 --> 10:18.110 Um it crazy time and in certain ways in china where human rights 10:18.110 --> 10:21.930 is just as the whole across sectors cities facing miss crackdown. 10:21.930 --> 10:25.380 Nineteenth hasn't been seen in in probably a decade or more. 10:26.010 --> 10:30.500 Um and press freedoms especially Aspen is sector. I think what 10:30.500 --> 10:31.140 they're doing. 10:32.060 --> 10:33.840 I ever since the change over leadership. 10:34.400 --> 10:37.860 They're taking examples from every sector and just throwing them 10:37.860 --> 10:38.600 a prison. 10:39.620 --> 10:43.510 The at times facing beatings and and um and and threats their 10:43.510 --> 10:47.310 family and the presses no exception to that I'm for chinese journalists 10:47.700 --> 10:51.030 uh I think committee of to protect journalists is said there's 10:51.250 --> 10:56.430 no country has more journalists imprisoned in china. And all 10:56.430 --> 10:59.020 of from all of those are are chinese journalists not foreign 10:59.020 --> 11:00.170 journalists operating there. 11:00.790 --> 11:04.410 Um insight is just to give a kind overview of the situation there 11:04.720 --> 11:09.670 nowadays company was bad and now it's worse a chinese journalists. 11:09.670 --> 11:14.720 I think some of the time challenges they face from would be um. 11:15.570 --> 11:18.520 There are often given directors from the government on what they 11:18.520 --> 11:20.700 can and cannot publish on a daily basis. 11:21.260 --> 11:25.190 I'm a lot of the old journalists are moving out to not a after 11:25.190 --> 11:27.900 no longer the profession because if they can't do the work that 11:27.900 --> 11:28.710 they got into it. 11:29.330 --> 11:33.180 Uh to do it and their families are being threatened their livelihood 11:33.180 --> 11:36.250 is being threatened have some people who into or out from a whole 11:36.250 --> 11:37.310 generation they. 11:37.840 --> 11:41.310 Are doing really interesting things in terms of a uh like there's 11:41.310 --> 11:44.460 a corruption campaign now like dance an anti corruption campaign 11:44.460 --> 11:45.560 on car from officials. 11:46.070 --> 11:49.050 Um you know like a year or your half ago the started putting 11:49.050 --> 11:54.560 out all these videos of um of officials having lavish banquet 11:54.560 --> 11:58.800 same resulting him in a lot of them getting a investigated a 11:58.800 --> 12:02.230 lot of like sex videos of the sex orgy is that they would do 12:02.260 --> 12:04.810 which is really interesting but that was the most journalists 12:04.810 --> 12:08.250 to are fit like at first there SAP a celebrated by government 12:08.250 --> 12:11.070 as saying all your part in anti corruption and and very promptly 12:11.070 --> 12:14.900 after few weeks later their their in their persecuted from Seoul 12:14.900 --> 12:18.100 law the challenge is there and among the younger generation of journalists. 12:18.710 --> 12:20.990 I've been talking last three years to a lot of them. 12:21.530 --> 12:22.490 And um. 12:23.350 --> 12:26.710 It's really heartbreaking because so many of them get into it 12:26.710 --> 12:30.790 was such just like in new last so such Co and they're going into 12:30.790 --> 12:34.240 it for all these reasons that you're really admire but you don't 12:34.240 --> 12:38.020 icing just the start working with the mrs 70 see the constraints. 12:38.060 --> 12:42.050 I'm one of them describe it tore paper as has dancing with shackles 12:42.050 --> 12:45.940 on you can be he a very limited movement in what you're doing 12:46.350 --> 12:51.300 a mole another describe it as a there's a wine that is not described 12:51.300 --> 12:53.840 and you don't know that you've crossed it until it's too late. 12:54.480 --> 12:58.380 Um and so often it's self-censorship for for chinese journalists of. 12:58.940 --> 13:01.980 Testing out what the government will allow and what they won't 13:02.200 --> 13:05.510 and wendy realize you know they're always pushing the envelope 13:05.510 --> 13:07.970 and when they realize that the fun too far. It's really too. Late. 13:24.640 --> 13:25.220 Other women. 13:27.290 --> 13:27.710 Two of. 13:28.220 --> 13:29.060 A. Um. 13:31.140 --> 13:32.120 No I think yours. Isn't. 13:35.470 --> 13:36.740 Just keep pushing the. Button. 13:41.060 --> 13:42.220 On no monica. 13:43.020 --> 13:46.470 Um this to I'm just gonna pick it up in kinda tang give you a 13:46.740 --> 13:50.180 historical overview of conditions for foreign journalists in 13:50.180 --> 13:54.110 china um because I'm kind of historic um. I first arrived in 13:54.110 --> 13:56.740 china and two dozen three to work as a correspondent. 13:57.380 --> 14:00.650 And when I got there in 2003 the rules were quite a winner us 14:00.690 --> 14:04.670 um primarily. It's a that that was difficult were like that time 14:04.670 --> 14:09.350 was we ring not allowed to travel outside of our home base without 14:09.350 --> 14:12.070 prior permission from the place. We burn going so for example 14:12.070 --> 14:15.770 if you wanted to go cover an earthquake in Shan time. You had 14:15.770 --> 14:19.370 to get permission from the sent on official sway to you can imagine 14:19.370 --> 14:22.600 the bureaucracy of china that is neither easy or. 14:23.130 --> 14:27.660 Um Austin didn't happen. I think in those first years. I only 14:27.660 --> 14:32.000 ever asked permission during my traveled once or twice um and 14:32.000 --> 14:34.030 it was never granted um. 14:35.460 --> 14:38.860 Deleting onto the olympics in 2008 detainees gunman took the 14:38.860 --> 14:40.490 big step of. 14:41.040 --> 14:43.120 Abolished saying that regulation. 14:43.620 --> 14:47.910 I'm An answer a to have this cheeky hands from a nerve damage some. 14:48.940 --> 14:54.650 Anyway I'm This was a major step forward for us. We're allowed 14:54.650 --> 14:58.160 to travel throughout the country without prior permission or 14:58.160 --> 15:01.380 major restrictions and it really did make a huge difference. 15:01.380 --> 15:02.290 I can remember. 15:02.820 --> 15:08.350 In those post regulatory changes 2008 travelling out of the province's 15:08.380 --> 15:12.300 and being stopped by the police and showing them the state council 15:12.300 --> 15:15.520 rules saying that we've are allowed to be there. Um that pretty 15:15.520 --> 15:18.460 quickly after the regulations retains. So it's a that trajectory 15:18.460 --> 15:21.730 go up and up and then pretty quickly we started to see it go 15:21.730 --> 15:22.690 back down again. 15:23.280 --> 15:28.070 Um and I would say by 2010 things started changing quite a bit 15:28.070 --> 15:29.240 for the worse um. 15:30.580 --> 15:34.440 In that period the foreign correspondents club of china which 15:34.440 --> 15:38.670 is a volunteer board of is correspondence work in china started 15:38.670 --> 15:42.760 doing surveys of members about the problems that they had experience 15:42.760 --> 15:43.530 about reporting. 15:44.310 --> 15:47.950 Sue. I mean in guinea some numbers from the last survey that 15:47.950 --> 15:51.280 we did it which was in 2014 the surveys that usually done him 15:51.280 --> 15:53.810 a nice so the next one will come out for a couple of months. 15:54.350 --> 15:57.790 Um that the last survey found that two thirds of foreign crisp 15:57.790 --> 16:01.720 on it's working in china had experienced harassment or interference 16:01.750 --> 16:04.200 on the job in the previous year. 16:04.970 --> 16:08.740 I'm half of journalists to work with chinese news assistants 16:08.770 --> 16:12.850 said their systems were bullied and that's up from 35% a year prior. 16:13.640 --> 16:18.380 In 66 instances chinese sources had been harassed for talking 16:18.380 --> 16:19.260 to foreign media. 16:19.950 --> 16:24.250 Um and perhaps most notable in troubling is that ee teen person 16:24.250 --> 16:27.790 to foreign correspondents head difficulty. We knew aim their 16:27.790 --> 16:28.590 press cards. 16:29.170 --> 16:33.490 And the says now among those half said that they're difficult 16:33.490 --> 16:37.020 to difficulties were related to their news coverage. So we've 16:37.020 --> 16:39.410 now entered an era where we are. 16:40.110 --> 16:44.010 Why do you write about or what you do report on in melissa's 16:44.010 --> 16:44.880 case um. 16:45.500 --> 16:48.630 Actually effects are ability to have access to reporting in china 16:48.660 --> 16:51.870 and I think that's always been kind of us this this and but it's 16:51.870 --> 16:56.020 been confirms now I'm in several cases in and what this is led 16:56.020 --> 16:59.800 to is an era where I think a lot of fun crisp on as we've always had. 17:00.520 --> 17:02.000 A cloud of pick tinsel. 17:02.590 --> 17:05.040 Self-censorship over us um. 17:05.830 --> 17:09.890 And a lot of that is down to protecting sources. I'm protecting 17:09.890 --> 17:13.220 our chinese employees but now we've entered an era where the 17:13.220 --> 17:15.920 subject matter that we write about were be the the report on 17:15.920 --> 17:18.790 and how we report on I can actually affect our ability to get 17:18.820 --> 17:22.410 access to report in the country. So that I would to say that 17:22.410 --> 17:22.890 this is it. 17:23.630 --> 17:27.070 You and timely development. No one has really quite figured out 17:27.100 --> 17:28.050 how to. 17:29.070 --> 17:31.910 I dress it as yet. I mean we've heard all sorts of suggests is 17:31.910 --> 17:35.430 involving the so reciprocity inward things like that but I don't 17:35.430 --> 17:38.110 think that anyone has really come up with an actual solution 17:38.110 --> 17:40.290 on how to fix this problem um. 17:40.970 --> 17:44.770 Just my own personal story and this is kind of this idea out um. 17:44.810 --> 17:50.350 I tried for three years to get press credentials with um global 17:50.350 --> 17:54.310 posts which is an on line news organization 10 it does not good 17:54.310 --> 17:57.130 prescott and tools to on line media said that never happened. 17:57.470 --> 18:00.610 There is no one need news organization that's on line only that 18:00.610 --> 18:03.800 has press credentials part time. Now. I think they got a six 18:03.800 --> 18:06.620 month piece of but you can imagine when mr. And now we're people 18:06.620 --> 18:09.830 read the news on buzz feet. They're not I'm sorry liam reading 18:09.830 --> 18:11.820 music and I really reading prince anymore. 18:12.340 --> 18:16.570 And that whole segments of the needy industry is not allowed 18:16.570 --> 18:20.180 to report legally in china's so we've got all these different areas. 18:20.470 --> 18:23.610 I'm better restricting and things are moving not in a better 18:23.610 --> 18:27.680 direction as they were sort of post 2008 but that's and silly 18:27.730 --> 18:31.060 in no worse direction and I think can't we're gonna move over 18:31.060 --> 18:32.380 to melissa now who can. 18:34.130 --> 18:38.220 Tell those it. Yeah what I should pick it up for their but and ethic. 18:38.940 --> 18:41.700 A number of people know your story but perhaps not everybody 18:41.700 --> 18:42.560 goes so maybe. 18:43.220 --> 18:45.490 If you could star in there and then. 18:46.010 --> 18:48.630 I'd be interested in your thoughts on this question of self-censorship 18:48.660 --> 18:49.030 as well.. Cut. 18:49.790 --> 18:57.020 Cut. Um so I think one of the partially and here because. 18:57.560 --> 19:01.760 In 2000 twelve. I was expelled from china and they believe was 19:01.760 --> 19:07.020 the first foreign reporter to have that experience about 14 15 years. 19:07.790 --> 19:09.010 And um. 19:09.680 --> 19:10.630 At the time. 19:12.160 --> 19:15.040 What the chinese government did was essentially. It's I had been 19:15.040 --> 19:19.010 in china for four years usually go and deter isa renewal. 19:19.420 --> 19:22.210 Um. Al does your fingers decided to call my departure Knicks 19:22.210 --> 19:25.990 bulge and that technically the chinese government simply did 19:25.990 --> 19:27.780 not give me into their peace out. 19:28.850 --> 19:31.470 It was out of the norm in the sense that most journalists who 19:31.540 --> 19:35.220 had once they had come to china more based there um you know 19:35.220 --> 19:37.590 par for the courses at the end the year you it when you're be 19:37.590 --> 19:40.890 sending you work for another year or instead I got a two month 19:40.890 --> 19:43.560 the set which essentially sent a message of trying to keep me 19:43.560 --> 19:47.110 on a short leash or at least keep me and out to syrup on a short 19:47.160 --> 19:49.150 leash he never really gave me. 19:49.780 --> 19:53.560 The story has changed in terms of why a date in did what they 19:53.560 --> 19:58.050 did initially it was that that chinese expressed unhappiness 19:58.050 --> 20:00.980 over documentary the dodges you had produced that I was not involved with. 20:01.790 --> 20:04.720 After my departure it became a character assassination state 20:04.720 --> 20:07.380 media wrote to a couple of articles. 20:08.320 --> 20:10.950 In fact in one article the women may my name on site mold and 20:10.950 --> 20:13.260 mortar something she who shot not be named. 20:14.560 --> 20:17.830 And character assassination. I think is a common tool in authoritarian 20:17.830 --> 20:21.410 States when it comes to journalists if they christian ethics 20:21.410 --> 20:25.120 immorality in the entire body of the workers family open to question. 20:26.060 --> 20:30.010 And um do their party channels because chinese diplomats and 20:30.010 --> 20:34.320 they're really it's spoken to me after my departure but they 20:34.320 --> 20:38.640 spoken to delegation is a bit journalists um. I have a panel 20:38.640 --> 20:41.720 broken some laws that they've never been able to identify what 20:41.750 --> 20:42.690 those laws are. 20:43.520 --> 20:47.000 And going back to that time puree was given a two month visa 20:47.200 --> 20:50.020 it sends a strong message and I think and a very uncomfortable 20:50.020 --> 20:53.010 thing that journals don't want to talk about is the concept of 20:53.010 --> 20:56.300 self censorship because we like to think that we don't self-censor 20:56.650 --> 21:00.010 but in a country like china. I have had plenty of conversations 21:00.270 --> 21:02.700 with foreign reporters on a catch lose they make in terms of 21:02.700 --> 21:06.200 pursuing one story over another was certainly during that two 21:06.200 --> 21:06.970 month. Period. 21:09.260 --> 21:12.170 Most of the time we just preceded as normal. But there were certainly 21:12.170 --> 21:13.320 times what I said well. 21:13.910 --> 21:16.660 These are going very well intends to relationship. Maybe I should 21:16.660 --> 21:19.630 hold off not critically proud of this but I think it happens 21:19.630 --> 21:22.720 to all of us any case after those two months. I was given another 21:22.720 --> 21:26.220 V set which was just a one month piece of an even tighter leash. 21:26.860 --> 21:29.920 And I'm glad that I did the right thing in the end because it 21:29.920 --> 21:34.040 felt it was very important to show the chinese government intimidation 21:34.040 --> 21:38.050 does not work assignments. I decided to pursue some stories frankly 21:38.350 --> 21:40.110 that I wouldn't have necessarily pursued. 21:40.710 --> 21:44.350 With such intent had they not giving me that kind of pressure. 21:45.200 --> 21:48.580 And I decided to do and revisit as story on black jails which 21:48.580 --> 21:52.170 are the illegal detention centers in china. They existing beijing 21:52.170 --> 21:56.200 the central government often places the blame on provincial governments for. 21:56.890 --> 22:00.130 Jean rights abuses or other abuses but if it's happening in beijing 22:00.130 --> 22:02.940 about 20 minutes from tiananmen square. I think the arguments 22:02.940 --> 22:06.360 much harder had to say that out of the government the central 22:06.360 --> 22:10.420 government is devolved about responsibility. Also attended tried 22:10.420 --> 22:14.730 to interview rights attorney pretty chairman and I'm. 22:15.360 --> 22:18.500 So that that was my last month the pushy champ that separate 22:18.500 --> 22:22.320 from my county intervene and she is now currently in detention 22:22.580 --> 22:25.790 and I think that says something about the state of rights in china. 22:26.410 --> 22:27.060 Um. 22:28.280 --> 22:33.620 And I think the last of I just wanna say because I do get the 22:33.620 --> 22:38.050 Salon from a lot of me mention any students are are are people 22:38.050 --> 22:40.770 who ask me why I'm so critical of china my reporting. 22:41.330 --> 22:45.110 Just a than not and based in san Francisco. I'm my criticism 22:45.140 --> 22:48.360 is on American society things are happening that are wrong. 22:48.360 --> 22:51.470 It's I think it's fundamental E journalist a kind of negative people. 22:52.210 --> 22:55.550 And um we have to be at least on our profession a basis on a 22:55.550 --> 22:56.970 really happy person outside of it. 22:57.530 --> 23:01.850 Um. But you know all here. I am the state department has asked 23:01.850 --> 23:04.790 me to speak today. I'm just gonna one I would just point out. 23:04.790 --> 23:07.530 The fact that what press freedom looks like is the fact that 23:07.530 --> 23:09.810 out his year end report of mine is staring today. 23:10.420 --> 23:14.110 I'm critical of the state department and bring to light last 23:14.110 --> 23:17.380 ch that yemeni American has filed against the state department 23:17.430 --> 23:19.320 and again secretary of state john kerry. 23:19.940 --> 23:24.110 I'm about the fact that this the yemeni American community feels 23:24.110 --> 23:27.830 like the are second class citizens in this country and we have 23:27.830 --> 23:31.290 some issues of constitutional rights that that a concern about 23:31.580 --> 23:34.590 that stand today but here I am and I think that's. 23:35.600 --> 23:38.500 Very important to point out into the defences. Thinking. 23:41.810 --> 23:44.940 Thanks thanks melissa. Well a story hasn't aired yet which is 23:44.940 --> 23:45.820 why your still free. 23:47.020 --> 23:50.620 Um so we will be monitoring it closely and you know watch out. 23:51.900 --> 23:55.520 Um well I think will take some questions from the audience. 23:55.520 --> 23:56.710 So if anybody wants to. 23:57.280 --> 24:01.270 Uh. China and think think of a question but maybe as you think 24:01.270 --> 24:02.070 about it the meat. 24:02.600 --> 24:05.130 Just throw one out to to all of you I mean at that. 24:05.670 --> 24:07.010 When you have been. 24:07.820 --> 24:10.740 Writing about china from china and have you. 24:11.740 --> 24:14.640 What what audience do you have for most of mine viewed you feel 24:14.640 --> 24:16.920 like you're writing for an American audience surfer. 24:17.450 --> 24:19.740 Both the chinese and American audiences are you. 24:20.270 --> 24:25.250 Conscious of Halle your stories are read perceived understood. 24:25.820 --> 24:29.850 By a a by broader chinese audience not not just the security 24:29.850 --> 24:31.960 officials who presumably monitor everything. You. Write. 24:37.160 --> 24:38.800 Yeah I mean I would say I'm old. 24:39.320 --> 24:43.450 Um there is a danger inviting internet that you often end up 24:43.450 --> 24:45.540 the writing for other people who write about china. 24:46.120 --> 24:49.950 Um but Tasting today it you know what to spend a lot of time 24:49.950 --> 24:52.390 traveling you learn that tinnies people. 24:53.190 --> 24:57.620 Pay attention to foreign media time and so I think that these 24:57.670 --> 25:01.130 there is this and doubled responsibility that your writing for 25:01.130 --> 25:03.890 an American audience but you're all set obe writing for. 25:04.430 --> 25:07.740 These audience of chinese people whose own media is so heavily 25:07.820 --> 25:11.110 restricted and so it's difficult mix to get bright because. 25:11.700 --> 25:15.670 Those audiences are so different to. Yeah I with people um. 25:16.000 --> 25:19.460 I don't know we at I mean I think and I was out of my primary 25:19.460 --> 25:23.160 audiences americans. But I wouldn't be surprised to fair to do 25:23.160 --> 25:27.750 to story um about a year ago for buzz feet of doubts and a chinese 25:27.750 --> 25:29.330 dissident and now that's in new york. 25:29.900 --> 25:34.250 And history when a fire role went really really bake and I think 25:34.250 --> 25:38.730 in the and There was an equal amount of traffic if not more from 25:38.730 --> 25:42.630 china about that story because current Starry had been so heavily 25:42.630 --> 25:48.240 sensor to in china and so did in the audience was was pretty eaten. 25:48.240 --> 25:50.200 I think can that I think that's that's normal. 25:51.440 --> 25:54.500 And something weird happens. We're like the chinese media will 25:54.500 --> 25:58.550 pick up your story is well that your i've I primarily think of 25:58.650 --> 26:02.960 of writing for americans explaining to china to to america alike 26:03.000 --> 26:06.740 even on human rights stories to the some weird instances where. 26:07.340 --> 26:10.790 The because chinese media can cover something they will take 26:10.790 --> 26:15.210 my story and say you know this is kind of the propaganda aversion 26:15.210 --> 26:18.950 from us of what they're seeing as our problems but they're actually 26:18.950 --> 26:23.100 talking about it like I wrote about um to anti corruption campaign 26:23.100 --> 26:25.860 and how these investigators actually work investigating their 26:25.860 --> 26:29.980 own party officials and because it's like a taboo topic among 26:29.980 --> 26:33.030 chinese media was picked up and even like Shane huh will run 26:33.030 --> 26:36.890 on some nice human rights stories set times which is really really 26:36.960 --> 26:51.370 strains that. Yeah I'd create like both both are going to them. Uh. Right. 26:55.400 --> 26:58.000 Mm. As a testing. 26:58.640 --> 27:01.170 Uh I wanted to ask about kind of. 27:01.880 --> 27:07.030 Z is access to you are able to do that when you're in china to 27:07.150 --> 27:10.730 two events this could be sort of in beijing up a public of in 27:10.730 --> 27:13.500 sort of on your beats him in public events kind of away from 27:13.500 --> 27:17.840 your the how has that changed and how out kind of DC that right now. 27:19.270 --> 27:23.110 So all all speak of a little bit in the context of being a television reporter. 27:23.110 --> 27:26.750 I think fundamentally in makes it very hard for asked to operate 27:26.750 --> 27:29.670 below the radar when you're looking twelfth pieces of kit any 27:29.840 --> 27:32.710 and dear anywhere you land I'm. 27:33.360 --> 27:37.090 In the pre beijing olympics period as we had mentioned things 27:37.090 --> 27:40.090 were quite smooth the Tench occasionally run into trouble with 27:40.090 --> 27:42.660 local officials but as long as you pointed out the law to them 27:42.660 --> 27:45.340 and we can care to copy of it everywhere said look we're we're 27:45.340 --> 27:49.530 allowed to to to cattle and and talk to people that uh that 's 27:49.560 --> 27:52.950 agreed to speaking the facet where he was in a problem to what 27:52.950 --> 27:56.500 I found really interesting is the last two years of a my time 27:56.500 --> 27:57.040 in china. 27:57.700 --> 28:01.360 It became a constant in the sense that every time we deployed 28:01.360 --> 28:03.690 honest chant that we were planning on. 28:04.280 --> 28:07.820 And clean can masking the When we did we get comedy was in a 28:07.820 --> 28:11.620 question if if it was when in a had nothing to do with the subject 28:11.620 --> 28:16.560 matter and question time necessarily and that was that subjective 28:16.610 --> 28:21.010 to ended the and um I think just an extended science statistically. 28:21.420 --> 28:23.070 I mean I wasn't bounding. 28:23.770 --> 28:27.210 You know I don't know either reporters experience. But it certainly 28:27.210 --> 28:30.890 was in a she just got worse and worse me through the way we operated 28:30.890 --> 28:35.880 as a television team is a she flew into an airport and um we 28:35.880 --> 28:38.290 checked into your hotel you have to give them your passport to 28:38.290 --> 28:41.640 the city for a copy it and it gets taxed a to get at least apart 28:41.640 --> 28:45.920 and so they they know your there city one avoid the uh one strategy 28:45.920 --> 28:48.950 would and plays would flying to the second close is airports 28:49.190 --> 28:51.240 engine cooling. Pinochet is made. 28:51.770 --> 28:54.640 Going eight or nine hour drive to destroy that we actually wanted 28:54.640 --> 28:57.610 to do is set that they can and really didn't know how widely 28:57.610 --> 29:01.710 where there are and I'm or we just wouldn't book a hotel and um. 29:02.380 --> 29:05.180 Um can and cannot sleep a well um. 29:06.080 --> 29:10.140 And um we would also as a television teen come in to say until 29:10.140 --> 29:15.970 age to crack of don um and be out of their you know the two hours 29:15.970 --> 29:18.650 in the gator sells a tiara when did because asked them about 29:18.650 --> 29:20.530 the time when the black cars chill up. 29:21.130 --> 29:23.960 And the anti this problem. I remember being in ching gem when 29:23.960 --> 29:27.660 we were in your room. She cashed are for tang nine day trip to 29:27.660 --> 29:31.060 where we flew everywhere. We landed there there are the two vehicles 29:31.060 --> 29:34.410 following last um everywhere we went in make impossible for us 29:34.410 --> 29:38.550 to speak to anyone without just putting them in danger and each 29:38.550 --> 29:42.790 car had fart for dies cities switch out whenever. We when some 29:42.790 --> 29:45.590 were and they they they'd walk around and and and and and so 29:45.590 --> 29:47.860 mass are just watch us. So I'm. 29:48.570 --> 29:51.880 I just got progressively worse and it's it's it's very difficult 29:51.880 --> 29:55.160 to operate that way it has a funny anecdote and we were interested 29:55.160 --> 29:57.910 in learning more about the speech of president xi jean ping night. 29:58.610 --> 30:02.730 This'll it back to his oh one of the villages I get spent time 30:02.760 --> 30:04.560 in intern. He's you can we picked. 30:05.620 --> 30:08.490 A january first because we sing that the local officials would 30:08.490 --> 30:12.080 have had a bit of a two into the night before and with the slow 30:12.080 --> 30:14.550 on the Gecko interns a showing up at the village and that was 30:14.550 --> 30:18.760 in case track indeed the case say you you put every cat to listen 30:18.760 --> 30:21.670 to chatted get what you want. The fact that that you know some 30:21.670 --> 30:25.190 locals call the facial Zins said. Oh there's a TV Kay here and 30:25.190 --> 30:28.750 it to the Morales stevie longer than usual take tea to show up 30:28.780 --> 30:31.380 and we were we got what we needed and we're out of there. 30:31.380 --> 30:32.810 But we we did see them. Coming. 30:36.570 --> 30:39.480 Can I do to you if you didn't get the cup by the police and until 30:39.480 --> 30:42.160 it's because I got caught by local officials in the bill is that 30:42.160 --> 30:46.210 they were driving of family planning and this was very intimidating 30:46.260 --> 30:47.110 has its it. 30:47.620 --> 30:48.930 What do they want from. Me. 30:54.120 --> 30:59.530 Them by the question sorry is a son to get that um this is about 30:59.970 --> 31:02.840 foreign journalists who are reporting on china from outside of 31:02.840 --> 31:06.440 china and morning are there particular precipice apart from working 31:06.440 --> 31:07.180 inside china. 31:07.750 --> 31:10.330 That journalists outside of china would face I'm we've heard 31:10.330 --> 31:13.750 about that tax on the new york times onsite from and other media 31:13.790 --> 31:17.390 outlets but I'm an ink specifically if you can speak to them 31:17.430 --> 31:19.350 that said journalists themselves a. Case. 31:26.630 --> 31:30.500 Do you mean I'm journalists reporting from other countries about 31:30.500 --> 31:30.980 time none. 31:31.680 --> 31:35.590 Okay well I can tell you the SCC record icing Tate has found 31:35.590 --> 31:40.150 an increase in troubling increase in attempts to influence news 31:40.150 --> 31:44.950 coverage about china from outside of china. So pressure coming 31:44.950 --> 31:49.000 from chinese embassies in the countries for journalists are based 31:49.000 --> 31:51.330 tour are from time there was an example. 31:52.090 --> 31:57.510 In time and I believe the waited two to bat reporting a hms and 31:57.540 --> 32:00.570 it didn't than a couple in these instances. I know that some 32:00.910 --> 32:06.780 stories that I did it in 20 13 about um counterfeit medications 32:06.780 --> 32:08.050 in africa for the guardian. 32:08.560 --> 32:14.150 Um. There was led to some pressure on the guardian staging bureau 32:14.600 --> 32:17.840 um and mysteries when not done in china at the were done in Tanzania 32:17.840 --> 32:23.170 and Uganda so in theory is is kind of a take in um. 32:23.990 --> 32:27.910 Pressure around the world. I can't say exactly what is happening 32:27.910 --> 32:31.220 because it hasn't happened to me directly could just anecdotal 32:31.220 --> 32:34.390 eight they're. There is some attend to influence news chemist 32:34.420 --> 32:38.390 about china from from places outside of china. 32:38.960 --> 32:42.820 And especially because the new ways there are you doing a lot 32:42.820 --> 32:46.390 of this intimidation that liked cyber for instance there snowboarder 32:46.390 --> 32:50.050 onside or I was covering state department for it to work can 32:50.050 --> 32:53.140 half years before it went to china dream that time. I wrote a 32:53.140 --> 32:56.940 lot about china and she male will have this thing that tells 32:56.940 --> 33:00.040 you that your under state attack can someone's trying to hack 33:00.040 --> 33:03.680 into your emails and so I am like some other reports at the post 33:03.680 --> 33:06.690 of can not even when we're not that you know we're not in country 33:06.690 --> 33:08.260 or not to beijing. 33:11.640 --> 33:12.020 Sophie. 33:12.690 --> 33:17.960 When I to my question is to make the to de up institutions in 33:17.960 --> 33:21.820 Hong Kong last year ban on sinn notes about a guy up coming to 33:21.820 --> 33:23.110 a nice uh elections. 33:23.710 --> 33:28.710 Um we know that that secede as acting and have the time controlled 33:28.770 --> 33:33.790 by the chinese sunshine sufficient and dud Pollard asked the outs. 33:34.300 --> 33:36.000 Hong Kong than susan's changed. 33:36.570 --> 33:40.630 The a medium netscape in china islamists in any. Change. 33:43.940 --> 33:46.740 And kicking and can you clarify a little bit. So how about how 33:46.740 --> 33:48.510 the dentists issue in the coverage. 33:49.310 --> 33:51.380 Of the up Hong Kong logged in stations. 33:52.010 --> 33:54.280 Um scenes is 10 these media. 33:54.980 --> 33:59.740 Up about both in terms of censorship and the I'm like that of 33:59.740 --> 34:02.200 this perception of this kind of events. 34:03.890 --> 34:06.790 Comes interesting about the Hong Kong protests it's. 34:07.400 --> 34:11.890 Like the nightmare of every party leader and the immediate leave 34:11.890 --> 34:15.920 a shutdown Instagram because a lot of it was circulating viraly 34:15.920 --> 34:16.830 on pictures. 34:17.540 --> 34:21.510 And so we did like some informal surveying non on of like them. 34:21.540 --> 34:23.550 We are our office we called them. 34:24.200 --> 34:27.770 And we talk to me the 30 people cheering the protests about how 34:27.770 --> 34:32.870 all where they are what's going on and What what a In a kind 34:32.870 --> 34:36.580 of views they have on it and it is really dispiriting in that 34:37.010 --> 34:40.920 I feel like they were still affected in censoring the news so 34:40.920 --> 34:44.610 that it was only state media and called see me they can only 34:44.650 --> 34:48.740 take from the official state news wire chanel five on coverage 34:48.740 --> 34:51.960 on and sensitive issues like that and so I feel like is very 34:51.960 --> 34:56.030 effective people's father was like them a new stands bad judgment 34:56.060 --> 35:01.440 on the part of Hong Kong citizens um that they were asking for 35:01.690 --> 35:04.630 more than than it was worth um. 35:05.450 --> 35:07.810 And it's hard to tell how much of that is shaded by a. 35:08.490 --> 35:13.500 You know chinese its own I'm I'm memories of can a man men and 35:13.850 --> 35:18.430 in and that but I feel use various effective censorship and that 35:18.430 --> 35:21.620 the in some ways like the model for the future unfortunately 35:21.620 --> 35:23.860 for their how the government will deal with it. 35:25.550 --> 35:29.070 Yeah just and that I didn't think what happened in Hong Kong 35:29.100 --> 35:30.130 has nina. 35:31.400 --> 35:35.010 It eight it's it's a really bad sign for Hong Kong in many ways 35:35.010 --> 35:38.840 Hong Kong was the hope in 19 97 that it waited. 35:39.470 --> 35:43.830 Um inverse lee liberal ice china and what we've seen since entirely 35:43.830 --> 35:46.510 not the case reporters they're intimidated. 35:47.120 --> 35:50.840 Um. A owners of nice the end of independent newspapers. 35:51.690 --> 35:53.170 Very much intimidated. 35:53.780 --> 36:00.080 Up and it's it's a brave new world for Hong Kong very scary frankly. 36:00.450 --> 36:03.710 I'm the police long respected in Hong Kong. 36:04.260 --> 36:09.400 As being non comfortable or uncomfortable in now being viewed 36:09.400 --> 36:13.180 in a way that it has never been viewed as says as somebody that 36:13.180 --> 36:16.880 you're against and it's the one place where civil society really 36:16.880 --> 36:21.460 thrives and we saw how powerful that can be the we've also seen 36:21.460 --> 36:25.030 its limits and with all se seen the chinese government's response 36:25.350 --> 36:27.230 I to you that and um. 36:27.830 --> 36:32.200 Unfortunately your seen tactics that nice to beat exclusively 36:32.200 --> 36:37.840 at the pretty of mainland china here in Hong Cano against people 36:37.870 --> 36:40.260 who are part of that umbrella moving and so on and I think it's 36:40.260 --> 36:42.300 very troubling days for that city. State. 36:47.810 --> 36:51.320 I I'm so free rigid time. He writes was china director thanks 36:51.320 --> 36:53.950 tom for doing this this morning and first and foremost thanks 36:53.950 --> 36:57.590 to the three of you for some extraordinary human rights reporting 36:57.690 --> 37:00.990 of the last couple of years your work has really I think sedentary 37:00.990 --> 37:04.380 high bar. I wanna be democratic and give you a choice of questions 37:04.820 --> 37:09.190 and The first is due to hear any of you are race a little bit 37:09.220 --> 37:13.420 on what if anything you sank changes beijing scouts away some 37:13.730 --> 37:16.540 about foreign reporters in tiny testing. I said we'll take your 37:16.540 --> 37:17.260 point that. 37:17.870 --> 37:21.640 The ages for brief period of time those new rules were rest acted 37:21.950 --> 37:24.790 and the really effectively adored and what if anything you seem 37:24.790 --> 37:27.170 to be done to gas back to that point. 37:27.830 --> 37:28.320 The oven. 37:29.430 --> 37:31.390 Mullasie are pretty does sell censorship. 37:32.090 --> 37:35.830 Is apart breaker that and I think the cat is if you guys 40 will 37:35.830 --> 37:36.840 to write what you want it. 37:37.360 --> 37:41.220 Has some of the stories of gone on told. I think are important 37:41.220 --> 37:44.950 ones for ousting now in so to the extent any views going to talk 37:44.950 --> 37:48.550 a little bit about the stories you wanted to to write the couldn't 37:48.580 --> 37:50.790 or didn't it would be great to hear about that. Thanks. 37:57.480 --> 37:58.540 This artist said. 37:59.910 --> 38:03.850 What in my work to get it back in and in a good way. I have no 38:03.850 --> 38:06.380 idea and the night. I tend to kind of have this. 38:07.020 --> 38:09.500 Idea that maybe teeth as an eight was a correct. 38:10.730 --> 38:13.880 Um because that's what it feels like and I also think that traina 38:14.080 --> 38:18.300 of 2015 under the current lee ching fees vary. 38:18.870 --> 38:23.000 Closed off to international pressure and may think the 2060 doesn't 38:23.030 --> 38:24.090 eight there was some. 38:25.010 --> 38:28.400 Openness and reset dismissed to international pressure. I mean 38:28.400 --> 38:31.400 that's the reason those rules changed is facing was getting the 38:31.400 --> 38:35.420 olympics and a me all these concessions to get the olympics um 38:35.450 --> 38:38.760 with regard to press freedom for bowls tinnies reporters and 38:38.790 --> 38:41.770 foreign media they were expecting something hundreds of foreign 38:41.770 --> 38:43.810 media to come to china said they had to do this. 38:44.450 --> 38:48.940 Um I with that happen again if they get the winter olympics coming up. 38:49.270 --> 38:52.970 I don't know but i've really to the in all my time there. I have 38:52.970 --> 38:58.670 not seen china's so kind of closed offs to international pressure. 38:58.670 --> 39:01.800 I think that time is in a position of power and strength right 39:01.800 --> 39:04.430 now and maybe feels like they they don't really need to listen 39:04.430 --> 39:08.050 to outsiders so he's that's a pessimistic khansa per. 39:08.960 --> 39:10.410 It feels like two dozen a was a blip. 39:11.880 --> 39:16.180 Can see the olympics in 2008 was a very special period and I 39:16.180 --> 39:19.910 think it to very worth comparing to china's current bid for the 39:19.910 --> 39:24.000 winter olympics agents can pitted winter olympics the 20 22 because 39:24.000 --> 39:27.250 we're not having the same kind of conversations that were happen 39:27.280 --> 39:31.010 having in 2000 name 2008 ahead of that the argument from the 39:31.010 --> 39:34.520 diocese that this is going to be times coming out party can is 39:34.520 --> 39:37.400 going to live allies is gonna be awesome does a great move to 39:37.400 --> 39:40.290 courage china to move in the right direction. We're not having 39:40.290 --> 39:43.620 that conversation now it's in some ways china has won that narrated 39:43.620 --> 39:47.280 in that and not about the she'll because no one's questioning. 39:47.340 --> 39:49.940 But me up eighteen. No is putting pressure on beijing saying 39:49.940 --> 39:54.140 well in these to do X Y and Z for media freedoms in order to 39:54.140 --> 39:57.550 win the Spain against out body. So I think that's something really 39:57.550 --> 40:00.160 have to think about it's kinda conversation is taking place in 40:00.560 --> 40:03.610 a six and seven is is it's not happening we're talking about 40:03.610 --> 40:06.820 this made in regards to your specific question about self-censorship. 40:07.450 --> 40:12.200 Um. And then to the things came to mind a and during that time 40:12.200 --> 40:14.900 were wet there was a very unique situation down in a village 40:14.900 --> 40:19.820 in guangdong province will pack and I'm re reading go making 40:19.820 --> 40:23.260 the go on these villages had raising up and they were going to 40:23.260 --> 40:26.930 try to a practice democracy in this little village and having 40:26.930 --> 40:31.690 election and demanding changes and the other thing was this southam 40:31.690 --> 40:35.070 relations into banning areas and I was something that we all 40:35.070 --> 40:39.260 and you know was a very important staring like. Oh how strongly 40:39.260 --> 40:42.410 de people feel that being the are going to burn themselves as 40:42.410 --> 40:46.230 a statement and not just one person act and to people but it's 40:46.230 --> 40:49.510 so many handed it was a story that we really felt like we wanted 40:49.510 --> 40:50.220 to do that. 40:51.230 --> 40:54.690 Of a combination of reasons not solely because of the passion 40:54.720 --> 40:57.780 that we were under about but just the logistics of a finding 40:57.780 --> 41:00.710 people willing to talk to us not pretty dumb in danger but that 41:00.710 --> 41:03.040 certainly platings' to catch us and um. 41:03.950 --> 41:05.990 And that none that's a really great. 41:06.770 --> 41:11.360 Unfortunately and any I think the 2008 and those media I'm. 41:11.930 --> 41:14.630 Sort of um. The regulations. 41:15.200 --> 41:17.510 In hindsight Alice feel like the chinese have been gritting their 41:17.510 --> 41:20.360 teeth the whole time. I can reduce and get the forever within 41:20.360 --> 41:23.760 the physical nine rolled around we're gonna just do exactly where 41:23.760 --> 41:27.300 we wanted to to make justice roll back the freedoms and specifically. 41:27.300 --> 41:32.190 I remember for Mino nine um the summer of 2009 his is moment 41:32.190 --> 41:35.340 when I realized the party's over that the olympics in the end 41:35.370 --> 41:38.800 and and opening up and media freedom and I was standing in the 41:38.800 --> 41:41.060 empty offices of stone and which is to sarah. 41:41.590 --> 41:46.300 Um officer of of a group of attorneys rights attorneys gator 41:46.480 --> 41:49.170 office seven ransacked officials are taking winner files. 41:49.460 --> 41:52.420 There's nothing that office acting. You know the chair an at 41:52.450 --> 41:56.930 a table Bellini furniture and um and we were there gina the turned 41:56.930 --> 42:02.350 down who later on was awesome. I'm held in prison on a self-censorship 42:02.350 --> 42:04.960 saying one thing I get forget to mention that a I feel is in 42:05.010 --> 42:08.730 a very important is i've had young American journalist. So I'm 42:08.840 --> 42:11.960 just starting out in china wanting to go to china approach me 42:11.960 --> 42:15.870 for advice and there's thinking in the framework of cells censorship. 42:16.280 --> 42:19.560 We'll be no I I wanna do a lot of stories in china. But olive 42:19.560 --> 42:22.700 Laden axe. Y Z because i've seen what happened to you what happened 42:22.700 --> 42:27.140 to palm mooney ever orders. What happened to the guy war of attrition 42:27.140 --> 42:30.540 going on with the new york times right now in china and that 42:30.540 --> 42:32.920 they are modifying at the hague and we're talking about the next 42:32.920 --> 42:36.560 generation of American journalists meant to inform the American 42:36.560 --> 42:39.880 public about a very very important relationship the as china 42:39.880 --> 42:45.290 relationship and um they are changing their norms. 42:45.840 --> 42:47.850 And I don't think that's a very good thing at all. 42:49.310 --> 42:52.630 But I just wanted to add on that your first question ayesha sitting 42:52.630 --> 42:55.550 for trying to think about it and it's just I mean that's like 42:55.550 --> 42:59.450 what everybody would love to a figure out and That this is the 42:59.450 --> 43:02.440 question about what what what we do one press freedoms to move 43:02.440 --> 43:05.610 it forward and I think I mean from a very pessimistic point of view. 43:05.610 --> 43:10.790 I think that the most we can do it's like not but press freedoms 43:10.790 --> 43:14.280 go the road further and if we could do that I feel like gonna 43:14.280 --> 43:18.370 be like sad to say like a really great thing has like if you 43:18.370 --> 43:21.070 take the new york times these a citrus reads apples are blocked 43:21.070 --> 43:23.740 from getting use these as they can't that reporters in about 43:23.740 --> 43:27.580 like about a year ago um to when it seemed like even the current 43:27.980 --> 43:31.620 deaths last few remaining your country porter's a might not get 43:31.720 --> 43:35.580 the right have trouble getting a visas the had joe Biden at such a..