WEBVTT

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No. We're no.

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We're. Here I'm from.

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To with this is in person
three to one person.

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And the we'll be hearing from professor
a show hopper iphone

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emitted this now is focused on the
evolution of rape and sexual

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assault laws in the United States.

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And our perilous are.

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Uh ms Tracy.

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As artist carole you Tracy of the
women's law project wish arlene

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whitman and mr. John Wilkinson.

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Of equip casts. I pronounce it correctly.

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Thank you.

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And then the as I mentioned a stir
a a show hopper world of speak

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five from a.

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When the you've finished so.

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Yeah that are are we starting with
them. This Tracy first week.

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I believe so. Okay what I'd been
deeply. Yes and in the interest

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of trying to confine myself to 10
minutes I'm going to read my

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testimony that on.

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On carole Tracy in only executive
director of the women's law

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project with we're Pennsylvania based
public interest law center

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abetting gauges and high-impact litigation.

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Policy advocacy individual counseling
and education to improve

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the legal health and social status
of women and work on a broad

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range of issues including reproductive
rights violence against

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women get gender discrimination in
education athletics insurance

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unemployment as well as family
law and family court reform.

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Or work includes pursuing innovative
strategies to improve police

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response to sex crimes on both the
local and international level.

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Or work in this area began net
in philadelphia in 19 99 when

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the philadelphia inquirer repealed.

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A scandal involving the police Department's
failure to investigate

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sex crime scene and that work has
led to an unprecedented anti

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Kate reveal a of sex crimes case
files speech ear or I'm for

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the past 15 years.

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We also initiated the call for the
changing the FBI is antiquated

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definition of rate than it uniform
crime. Reporting says the

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System and successfully requested
hearings before the senate

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judiciary Subcommittee on crimes and
drugs to address the national

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crisis that we learned the balch
and that was revealed again

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when the media coverage demonstrated
that many cities for failing

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to adequately investigate sex crimes.

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That the request of the national
research council of the national

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academy is a women's law project
in collaboration with a quick

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pass prepared a paper rape and sexual
assault in the legal system

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which of that I think peak we're
gonna get an updated version

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appeared to um and this paper describes
in detail the common

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elements of rape and other sexual
assault was used in the States

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territories federal government
and the you see and jay and it

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provides the context in which the
laws have developed and continue

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to low ball.

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Rape and sexual assault laws can
be complex and confusing.

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Terminology is confusing because
such terms as rape sexual abuse

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sexual assault and others that
different meanings a different

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jurisdictions significantly the term
consent is defined differently

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in each state.

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Across the state sex crimes are named
and defined different late

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and range from sexual penetration
dax of sexual violence that

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do not involve penetration searches
sexual contact and exposure.

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In some States special terminology
has been applied to refer

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to the sexual penetration of men
and anal penetration of women

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including saw the main deviate
sexual and or course.

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The complexity of sex crimes law
was to rise from the historical

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background of bias against women.

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The legal history of rapists
particularly in many years.

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Under english common law from which
are was developed rape as

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a crime against property not person.

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A women's reproductive capacity
in the form mentor chastity was

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considered property and was essential
to establish an patriarchal

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inherit interacts.

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Alone and sexuality was owned by
or father and transfer to the

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man who became her husband.

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Rape laws protected the economic
interest of man therefore rape

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as a regionally considered
the theft of property.

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The bodily integrity of the
woman was irrelevant.

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The consequences of the underpinning
of rape law were that unmarried

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women could only be considered to
have been raked if they were

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Virgins wicked married women by their
spell Souls was not a crime

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because a lot presumed abroad notion
of consent to all the woman

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sexual activity with her husband
to to her wedding bells.

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And in the series men could not be
raped it and wakeboard kisses

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other than the the john it was not
legally recognized and rape

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of non virginal woman was not a crime.

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As incorporated and American jurisprudence
the basic elements

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of rape are generally carnell all its
which is male female penetration

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use of force be hot beyond the
penetration itself and against

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her will meaning lack of consent.

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In order to establish that the act
was against liberal will of

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the woman it was necessary to establish
that force was used and

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to establish force. It was necessary
to show how much a woman resisted.

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He's the star bold view of rape
and it's qadir korea station

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as a property crime also perpetuated
the belief that women lined

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up being raped.

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Sex crime statutes were enacted
that incorporated the historic

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goal of protecting male interests
and led to numerous procedural

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anomaly SunIQ to rate.

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These included requiring prompt
attention to law enforcement

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requiring the core operation of the
victim's testimony by independent

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testimony and door evidence
a serious physical injury.

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Allowing information regarding the
victims pay a sexual history

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and character to be admitted into
evidence and committee cautionary

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instructions which impure and the
victims credibility to juries.

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These rules and require it requirements
imposed on liam rape

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and sexual Saul cases severely disadvantaged
in cygnet stigmatised

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rate complainants and rendered a successful
prosecution extraordinarily difficult.

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The legal system's hostile treatment
of rape cases and rape victim

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was wishing me ken in marked contrast
to its response to other

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solve crimes with respect to rate
the legal system emphasize

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the victims character behavior and
words in order to ascertain

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whether the victim consent to.

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Rather saw crime sell ever the legal
system focuses only on the

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actions of the accused to establish
criminal activity. For example

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the kremlin battery such as a punch
is established based solely

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on the perpetrators actions ender
intent and with victims response

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to being punched is irrelevant
the victim need not resist and

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or express unwillingness to being
punch to establish a prime

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numbers of victims history
being punched relevant.

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Lack of consent is a so rape on the
other hand undid the tradition

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only view occurred not because the
action of the a sale wanted

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but on the basis of the victims
perceived influence upon and

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response to the perpetrators action.

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Swooping sex crime law reform began
in the 19 seventies in this

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country fan this rejected the notion
that women are the property

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of men without independent legal
status are rights and demanded

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changes in the lull as a result
of this activism most States

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have expanded the definition to sex
crimes to eliminate disparity

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space done gender in marital status.

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They've also recent did the requirements
a resistance core operation

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and reporting requirements and
prohibit the introduction of a

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woman's pay a sexual history.

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It is now. Well established that
penetration of art this this

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other than the the jain is a felony.

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Issues a force in consent continued
to change but clear trends

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in the evolution of all law are
identifiable the definition of

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forces broadening beyond overt physical
force alone to include

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other modes of coercion.

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There's an increasing recognition
that penetration with captain

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center any additional force beyond penetration
is a serious sexual offense.

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The strands demonstrated growing
understand the good on wanted

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and on consented to bodily invasion
is the clue are wrong that

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sex crimes lawless must address
the FBI is broadening of these

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see our defamation of rape to include
penetration with the consent

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and without force also
reflects these trends.

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Additional lower form is lead. It
is needed the stages of archaic

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requirements remain and some laws
and hampered the prosecution

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are break.

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All jurisdictions retain a crime
that penetration with force.

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But some still do not recognize
rate but they'll force in that

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that can set.

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Some jurisdictions a layout consideration
of the prompt us of

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complain resistance in physical
injury for some purposes such

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as determining the credibility
of the victim.

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On their own rate does nella prime
in all jurisdictions differences

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in treatment persist with regard
to both rapists bells owes an

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intimate partners.

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In addition consideration of prior
sexual history with the accused

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is allowed in some jurisdictions such
provisions reflected persistent

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butter running is notion that rape
is about a sexual relationship

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and not a bad an unwanted non
consensual bodleian vacation.

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These provisions in a row nice police
of the victims and about

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the nature of rape district a while
back group will distract

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lawmakers from the real harm the
criminal law must address the

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invasion of bodily integrity and
the dynamics of break the must

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be recognized by the ball lull.

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Break does not about regulating
normandy a sexual relationships

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but about regulating crime.

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The persistence of mess of and biases
about rape and sexual assault

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that are inconsistent with the true
dynamic a sex crimes influences

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help police prosecutors judges and juries
in force and interpret wallets.

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Criminal justice professionals
and other participants in the

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judicial process are not immune
from bias in their handling of

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rape and sexual Saul.

09:58.010 --> 10:02.230
In the kiss two decades researchers
state T's courses and judicial

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organization said studied in made
findings about gender bias

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in the court system.

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They found evidence of judges court
officers prosecutors and

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juries who displayed stare it to
bubba abuse in sensitivity to

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and ignorance about sex crime victims
and this believe them blank victims.

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Most frequently when the victim new
the perpetrator a circumstance

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that is true in the day 's
majority of sex crimes.

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Researchers the family jurors had
inaccurate understanding to

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rape victim behavior that influence
their decisions. Many judges

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injured six-pack proof of resistance
an injury to overcome a

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consent defense even won a lot recorders
neither resistance darker aberration.

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Victims are viewed as more credible
if weapons are used are victims

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are injured even though the sectors
are not present in most rapes.

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As a result of these biases juries
often fail to convict intimate

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partner rapists.

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Confronting judges and juries for
the same biases fell by police

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prosecutors face a daunting can
skin achieving convictions rate

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cases can be difficult to prove and
Apple and Ruckus Ortega grapes

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may involved impaired memory and
observation as well as biases

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against intoxicated victims rather than
try to overcome the misconceptions

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and challenges prosecutors often
decide not to prosecute.

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The the ultimate result of all of
this is that when the criminal

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justice system refuses to respond
adequately token playing a

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rate because myths lead them to this
believe victims and victims

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do not report rapists are not caught
arrested or prosecuted and

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perpetrators are likely to re attend.

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Thank you thank you very much I'm.

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Was whitman mr. Robinson.

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Up. Break ever state.

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It. And start a from charlie it
that the here who was one of

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a co-authors of our paper that are
my remarks will be based on

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a um is also here to answer any questions
and uh about statistics

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or anything that to is included in the
paper. I'm good afternoon everyone.

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Thank you so much for inviting a
sears speak. I'm a names john

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Wilkinson on an attorney advisor
with that with us which is the

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prosecutors resource on violence
against women uh. We're funded

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by the opposite violence can swim
at the partner justice where

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the primary training and technical
assistance provider for state

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local prosecutors on sexual violence
domestic violence human trafficking.

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I'm stalking any violence against women
crimes that they're going on.

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And we partnered with a little
women slaw project to produce

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is paper a which you've asked us
to present some of the findings

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up from the paper. I've just a little
bit about that with awesome

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mission is to improve the quality
of justice in gender based

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violence cases by refining prosecution
practices that increase

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victims safety and offender accountability
act with an assist

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baptists comprise. The former prosecutors
with over a hundred

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years of collected experience uh
prosecuting such cases a we

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conduct late a of legal research we
provide 24 seven case consultation

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uh uh servers mentors instructors
a training events. We publish

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resources that focus on strategies
to a approach in a go after

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by askance wondering crime some
multiple about resources that

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we have um we provide research.
That's informed and incorporate

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strategies that are easy to implement
practical to implement

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for prosecutors in the field resulting
in a prosecutors ability

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to sustain affect the practices
and promote systemic change.

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Uh. I'm here. This afternoon off
of testimony on behalf of our

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organization a which we did this
project with the women's lot

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a project.

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Assessing rape and sexual salt was across
the 50 States by territories

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and the district of columbia as
well as the federal military

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systems in addition on wind up on
my own experience and my offices

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collected experience uh in training
military and civilian prosecutors

13:50.170 --> 13:53.200
and allied professionals practicing
in the Easter stake chimps.

13:54.590 --> 13:57.630
They don't live this paper each
jurisdictions lot was reviewed

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and although improvements can be
made to step up fight allies.

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There are few if any jurisdictions
in which of the jurisdictions

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laws are preventing the offender
from being held accountable

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of the biggest barrier to justice
in these cases is the failure

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to accurately.

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He died a weight to thoroughly investigate
these cases. So that

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we have the information and the
tools necessary to about a wake

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them and per seat appropriately.

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Uh uh palmer viewable last it's important
to remember that terminology

14:25.720 --> 14:29.530
may differ a and the common understandings
of certain terms cannot

14:29.530 --> 14:32.930
be relied upon but it's important
to review the statute step

14:32.930 --> 14:35.650
the missions in the case law that
inter pricks those definitions

14:35.940 --> 14:38.710
up to figure out exactly what
to about these things me.

14:39.830 --> 14:42.620
Based on our review of a all the
50 States all the different

14:42.620 --> 14:45.710
jurisdictions simple wang which
seems to be the most effective

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way to communicate uh what a statute
that is meant to address.

14:50.080 --> 14:52.970
I'm even copper had to statutes
can be written in a manner that

14:52.970 --> 14:57.930
is to racked a and easy to apply
the law. So we can use simple

14:57.930 --> 15:00.350
wind which so that everyone knows.
What's prohibited. What is

15:00.350 --> 15:02.420
expected a and how
we apply that law.

15:02.950 --> 15:04.110
All the 50 States week.

15:04.760 --> 15:08.120
Determined there were similar elements
any acts that were covered

15:08.240 --> 15:11.630
by old of laws in all the 50 States
are most of the States of

15:11.660 --> 15:14.960
not every state has the same laws
not everything is covered as

15:14.960 --> 15:19.090
carroll mentioned a penetration
is a category of crimes that

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today's covered in all 50 States.
It includes penetration of

15:22.030 --> 15:27.700
the vagina amos mal by the penis
or other bodily part I'm or

15:27.700 --> 15:30.100
penetration of the vagina
gayness by an object.

15:30.950 --> 15:34.260
Release light penetration is typically
required and should be

15:34.260 --> 15:38.050
required a is not recommended that
there be additional elements

15:38.050 --> 15:40.770
requiring a showing that the penetration
be committed for the

15:40.770 --> 15:44.140
purpose of sexual arousal gratification
of pews degradation or

15:44.140 --> 15:47.330
humiliation forced
non consented to.

15:47.960 --> 15:51.600
We're penetration pot victim relax
capacity to consent should

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be enough of rather than have that additional
element in penetration crimes.

15:56.990 --> 16:00.180
All the States crumb allies each the penetration
djs with few exceptions.

16:01.300 --> 16:05.800
Um. Different States have differing
gradations of crime based

16:05.800 --> 16:09.410
on the activity debt to a has
occurred a historically.

16:10.210 --> 16:15.470
Non. He nile the jain out penetration
is the highest level of

16:15.680 --> 16:16.470
great of crime.

16:17.050 --> 16:20.250
Other kinds of penetration historically
have been minimize or

16:20.250 --> 16:24.560
have a lower level of gradation a digital
penetration or penetration

16:24.560 --> 16:28.680
within in annum an object sometimes
is a a low or grated crime

16:28.710 --> 16:30.570
in some of the state's um.

16:31.970 --> 16:35.880
Force old the state's have some
component that addresses force

16:36.310 --> 16:39.960
they called criminalised forceful penetration.
But they're variations

16:39.960 --> 16:43.580
in how forces defined and analyze
among the statutes um.

16:44.470 --> 16:47.430
Generally a lack of consent rip
resulting from forced overcome

16:47.430 --> 16:52.280
the will depict them as Colonel lies
a in various States traditionally

16:52.280 --> 16:56.010
stack store definitions a force
equal physical forced violence

16:56.010 --> 16:59.680
force required to overcome the victims
resistance stated or implied

16:59.710 --> 17:02.900
threats that place victims in fear
of immediate death or serious

17:02.900 --> 17:07.570
physical injury to the individual or two
with third party a or retaliation.

17:08.290 --> 17:11.680
Most expensive definitions of force
are starting to include coercion

17:12.080 --> 17:16.240
going beyond them over physical force
codified portion as fundamental

17:16.270 --> 17:19.060
element of the crime. So that we're
no longer required simply

17:19.060 --> 17:22.680
to have some sort of a physical
brute force a at play.

17:23.300 --> 17:24.440
Another way States are.

17:24.950 --> 17:27.530
Going is to say that sufficient
force has been established by

17:27.530 --> 17:30.780
the act of penetration itself just
the amount of force required

17:30.780 --> 17:33.220
to a commit the penetration.

17:33.850 --> 17:34.790
Typically force.

17:35.600 --> 17:39.220
The is that which is required to overcome
the victims. Well sufficient

17:39.220 --> 17:40.630
force often found there.

17:41.500 --> 17:44.510
Often found it where there is a
big size differential between

17:44.510 --> 17:47.530
victim and perpetrator or age difference
or specific relationship

17:47.530 --> 17:50.720
that causes power dynamics to be
on balance. So we recognize

17:50.720 --> 17:55.030
that force may result is that it
be a result of how these victims

17:55.030 --> 17:58.150
are situated and certain circumstances
that are peculiar to that

17:58.180 --> 18:01.830
particular case but it's recognize
in the statutes courts look

18:01.830 --> 18:05.700
to the context of the us all to determine
if evidence establishes. Force.

18:07.940 --> 18:12.150
Consent is another area that is a
dressed up by most of the state's

18:12.390 --> 18:16.920
did the victim had capacity to consent
age is an issue when you

18:16.950 --> 18:21.190
talk about capacity can to consent
a is there a minimum age up

18:21.190 --> 18:24.580
beyond which it's per se criminal
to engage in sexual. Or course

18:24.780 --> 18:27.940
within individual a because that
individual lacks the capacity

18:27.940 --> 18:31.890
to consent is their disability
at play in an individual that

18:31.890 --> 18:35.770
it might rendered their ability
to consent uh not being present

18:36.010 --> 18:39.590
um and those are tricky cases but
most States have statute said

18:39.590 --> 18:43.490
address that situation on consciousness
a person was unconscious

18:43.490 --> 18:46.450
typically most States would say
simply cannot consent to sexual

18:46.450 --> 18:50.820
activity in tax occasion is though
one where it starts to get

18:50.820 --> 18:51.950
tricky a.

18:53.020 --> 18:57.550
Most every state has a a a statute
that addresses intoxication.

18:57.840 --> 19:03.110
I'm not all of them through racked up but
dressed voluntary intoxication directly.

19:03.430 --> 19:04.420
There is a.

19:04.930 --> 19:08.680
Everybody has been volunteer intoxication
covered and most every

19:08.680 --> 19:12.180
state to case lot not specifically
to the statutes has a way

19:12.180 --> 19:16.220
to go after voluntary toxic a ship
which we find tend to be some

19:16.220 --> 19:18.930
of the tapas cases a because
you have a built-in.

19:19.950 --> 19:23.470
Credibility issue you have judgement
against victims or voluntarily

19:23.470 --> 19:27.820
intoxicated by juries a and that
becomes a tough uphill battle.

19:27.820 --> 19:31.420
Not so much because of the statutes
but because of churh attitudes

19:31.420 --> 19:36.390
and uh perhaps a prosecutor skill
and addressing those issues. Um.

19:38.910 --> 19:41.410
You may have to proceed under different
sections depending on

19:41.410 --> 19:45.950
how your lot is written in your state to
go after that the boxer intoxication.

19:46.410 --> 19:50.030
I'm only 10 States specifically
use the term anti station their

19:50.030 --> 19:52.840
victims or voluntarily attack
skated as well as those.

19:53.390 --> 19:54.230
Who are.

19:55.040 --> 19:57.890
In voluntarily are voluntarily
car skated to the extent that

19:57.890 --> 20:00.010
they're incapable of consigned
to sexual activity.

20:00.680 --> 20:02.700
Forty States use the term intoxication.

20:03.250 --> 20:07.330
That require victim to be in voluntary
in voluntarily intoxicated.

20:07.810 --> 20:11.280
But what they still have ways to go
after the voluntarily voluntary

20:11.280 --> 20:14.410
intoxication cases even though when
they talk about intoxication

20:14.410 --> 20:16.270
is referring to involuntary
talk station.

20:17.620 --> 20:21.550
In these cases the details matter
and dried the analysis you

20:21.550 --> 20:24.000
have to figure out what's going
on what happened in that case

20:24.000 --> 20:27.880
a would ever the statute says to
entice skated to consent or

20:27.880 --> 20:31.280
you are moving under another prong
up four sir physically helpless

20:31.280 --> 20:34.460
some States care character as it is
that is mentally incapacitated

20:34.460 --> 20:37.170
are physically helpless you must
look at all the details to meet

20:37.170 --> 20:38.630
the elements of persuade cherie.

20:40.680 --> 20:45.410
Was consent freely given a 18 States
from allies penetration

20:45.410 --> 20:49.360
without consent and without force
and and this uh is another

20:49.360 --> 20:53.470
trend exit going on the depth missions
defer across jurisdictions

20:53.500 --> 20:56.010
sometimes including force
in the very definition.

20:56.520 --> 20:59.800
Conveying permission positive corporation
in the actor attitude

20:59.800 --> 21:02.620
can system with free will and with
knowledge of the nature beat

21:02.620 --> 21:06.710
back is sometimes a used to determine
consent lack of consent.

21:07.940 --> 21:11.210
If it's induced by fraud or compulsion
compulsion to submit due

21:11.210 --> 21:14.450
to the use of force or threat or
force or coercion there would

21:14.450 --> 21:17.660
be no consent and the situation
about the lack of consent some

21:17.660 --> 21:21.410
States require knowingly that the
perpetrator knowingly knew

21:21.410 --> 21:23.780
or had reason to know the victim
did not consent or that the

21:23.780 --> 21:25.580
victim was in fact intoxicated.

21:26.270 --> 21:29.900
The victims lack of resistance or
carp or prior social relationship

21:30.160 --> 21:34.570
or manner of dress does not equal
consent in most all the States.

21:35.310 --> 21:39.870
Affirmative consent is a minority
position of met that a few

21:39.870 --> 21:42.930
jurisdictions meaning that there
has to be evidence that there

21:42.930 --> 21:47.880
was a farmer of elite consent given
to engage in sex um whether

21:47.880 --> 21:51.730
it's through probo consent or through
acts that demonstrate that

21:51.730 --> 21:54.650
there was consent to a sexual act.

21:55.380 --> 21:58.480
Victim perpetrator relationships
are also criminalising many

21:58.480 --> 22:00.040
of the state's um.

22:00.780 --> 22:04.140
That that there may be and it incapacity
to consent based on

22:04.140 --> 22:08.630
a relationship uh and that can
be a familial relationship uh

22:08.660 --> 22:13.530
it can be an incest type of a crime
they can be a person who's

22:13.560 --> 22:16.320
in authority a bat may not.

22:17.300 --> 22:22.460
May render consent bite. The interior
member of the relationship uh.

22:23.000 --> 22:25.910
They are unable to consent to the
sexual activity fine missing

22:25.910 --> 22:30.270
corrections a where a corrections
officer is that that it in

22:30.270 --> 22:33.100
cable of engaging in sex with a knee
and make the and in a cannot

22:33.100 --> 22:37.240
consent to that kind of a
a sexual behavior to um.

22:38.400 --> 22:41.090
Those are special relationships
and we'd often refer to them

22:41.370 --> 22:43.600
a as a person's an authority.

22:44.300 --> 22:47.670
Uh some States have this sexual arousal
gratification degradation

22:47.670 --> 22:48.920
humiliation or abuse.

22:49.430 --> 22:51.880
Pronged to their statue
a and it it.

22:53.210 --> 22:55.690
The circumstances are generally
how we're going to figure out

22:55.690 --> 22:58.140
whether that that has happened
or whether we're able to prove

22:58.140 --> 23:01.780
that prong or not and what we're talking
about penetration crunch.

23:01.780 --> 23:05.030
It's not really necessary that
is what the crime is about and

23:05.030 --> 23:07.840
the circumstances certainly reveal
that uh that some time and

23:07.870 --> 23:10.720
it's an additional uphill battle.
One is something that that

23:10.720 --> 23:12.920
needs to be look back carefully um.

23:13.730 --> 23:14.820
For. A

23:17.370 --> 23:18.170
Other crimes.

23:19.130 --> 23:22.400
Marital status is covered the by
all the jurisdictions now that

23:22.400 --> 23:23.860
that is no longer defense.

23:24.450 --> 23:29.710
To sexual assault a and the relationship
though may end up in

23:29.710 --> 23:33.050
the crime being grated of different
level of because that same

23:33.050 --> 23:37.690
sex is also covered up by most of
the state's. We'll some States

23:37.690 --> 23:40.530
covered specifically other States
covered under their general

23:40.530 --> 23:43.400
statutes and and every word you're
pretty much it will go after

23:43.400 --> 23:46.520
same-sex sexual assault a
in everett jurisdiction.

23:48.020 --> 23:51.780
A multiple perpetrator some States
are a looking adds about.

23:52.290 --> 23:54.830
Laws that cover multiple perpetrators
typically. We would go

23:54.830 --> 23:59.020
after them under conspiracy theory
a or a and accessory theory

23:59.280 --> 24:00.190
uh in the law.

24:00.950 --> 24:04.970
Um so the laws are one big piece
of the puzzle here in you'd

24:05.070 --> 24:08.240
certainly when a session was and make
sure that you have a effective

24:08.240 --> 24:11.790
laws that we can use to go after folks
who probably more important

24:11.820 --> 24:14.450
is the implementation of those
laws and you can have the best

24:14.450 --> 24:17.450
tools around but if you don't have
people who are skilled at

24:17.480 --> 24:20.810
implementing those tools and using
those tools to hold offenders

24:20.810 --> 24:24.800
accountable at the best laws in
can of the of much help uh we

24:24.800 --> 24:27.790
were people understand of the laws
but also the dynamics and

24:27.790 --> 24:31.670
carol talked about some of those dynamics
and how they are perpetrate

24:31.670 --> 24:34.990
how these crimes are perpetrate.
How perpetrators used the myths

24:34.990 --> 24:38.850
and misconceptions to not only a
cop was the crime but the cover

24:38.850 --> 24:41.750
their tracks afterwards because
they know that people are gonna

24:41.750 --> 24:45.750
have trouble believing a woman who
got monteiro intoxicated a.

24:46.610 --> 24:49.440
Is telling the truth about a sexual
solved a that she may not

24:49.440 --> 24:52.660
remember people are very willing
to believe the settings uh the

24:52.660 --> 24:55.170
prosecution is less about the laws
there are several States it

24:55.170 --> 24:58.870
had to compose a was others that
cannot but good practice still

24:58.960 --> 25:03.720
wins the date in those areas a class
a a understanding in addressing

25:03.720 --> 25:07.250
victim behaviors. One of the Keats
a wide victims might delay

25:07.250 --> 25:11.320
in reporting. Why victims might
not fight back in resist a are

25:11.320 --> 25:16.520
very important when you say a tell
injure aboard jury panel that

25:16.580 --> 25:19.950
I'm they're going to your rape
case the image that appears in

25:19.950 --> 25:23.040
their head and subtly of course
is the stranger rapist a who

25:23.080 --> 25:26.580
uses for strike someone into the
bushes and use brutal force

25:26.580 --> 25:29.590
or a weapon to commit the rate.
That's not the majority of our

25:29.590 --> 25:32.650
cases their non stranger cases
and those are the ones that we

25:32.650 --> 25:35.070
after dressed and that victim behavior
sick Kinney. We don't

25:35.070 --> 25:38.190
want people to fall into the trap
of making false credibility

25:38.190 --> 25:40.900
assessments because they don't
understand how victims behave.

25:41.420 --> 25:45.770
A trauma informed care in interviewing
is a critical piece understanding

25:45.770 --> 25:49.770
that victims of sexual salt have
suffered a traumatic experience

25:49.920 --> 25:53.670
and may not respond the way someone
whose car was stolen might

25:53.670 --> 25:56.910
respond uh and so care in interviewing
that individual. So that

25:56.910 --> 26:00.250
they it's staying caged in the
process don't dropped out that

26:00.250 --> 26:02.960
we don't blame the victim for things
that they may have done

26:03.130 --> 26:06.100
such they'd such that they feel
that they are to blame for the

26:06.100 --> 26:09.550
crime itself needs to be involved
in our investigation of these

26:09.550 --> 26:13.930
cases a also we want to provide
as many resources and support

26:13.930 --> 26:17.050
to victims when they had suffered
the trauma of sexual assault

26:17.080 --> 26:22.120
as we can't a including health care
but also advocacy and counseling

26:22.280 --> 26:26.610
a when it's necessary that is what's
going to also help us win

26:26.610 --> 26:30.070
the day when it comes trying these
cases in court because a stronger

26:30.070 --> 26:33.480
victim makes a stronger witness
from a thorough investigations

26:33.480 --> 26:36.510
are kitty. So I can assess a case
understand what happened.

26:37.480 --> 26:40.990
Understand which was are going to
apply and how to a use those

26:40.990 --> 26:44.460
laws to hold the offender accountable
offender focus prosecution

26:44.460 --> 26:47.460
strategies are kitty. We don't want
to beyond the fence the whole

26:47.460 --> 26:50.770
time trying to explain or defend
wire victim. Did what they may

26:50.770 --> 26:51.240
have done.

26:51.960 --> 26:55.730
In that traumatic moment um. We want
to focus on what the offender

26:55.730 --> 26:59.230
did and one we look and investigate
with an offender focus we

26:59.230 --> 27:02.540
find more evidence that they're planning
that their schemes that

27:02.540 --> 27:06.080
there's parting of individuals things
that I can Marty to injury

27:06.260 --> 27:09.260
to demonstrate that this didn't just
happen this was a bad judgment

27:09.260 --> 27:12.640
this was in a drunken night. This
was an intentional perpetrated

27:12.640 --> 27:17.690
crime a collaboration is also key
in these cases a we definitely

27:17.690 --> 27:21.250
need to work closely with our advocates
prosecutors police and

27:21.250 --> 27:25.360
at least medical at least those
four to appropriately respond

27:25.360 --> 27:28.650
in a dressed up the crime of sexual
Saul these are the the main

27:28.650 --> 27:33.670
things um the U.S CM J R to one
20 is a pretty copper hence of

27:33.700 --> 27:37.360
a code section and it covers a
lot of these areas that we've

27:37.360 --> 27:40.360
talked about that many of the state
senate cover in various in

27:40.360 --> 27:44.190
different ways uh and so it does
cover a of good number of these

27:44.190 --> 27:45.750
things um but again.

27:46.830 --> 27:50.620
The told was only to be as good
or it's useful as the person

27:50.620 --> 27:54.300
using it a and who has the skill
to use itself out when we really

27:54.300 --> 27:57.850
think that implementation pieces
probably the more important

27:57.850 --> 28:00.480
piece a to the quote section. It's.

28:03.660 --> 28:04.620
Thank you very much.

28:05.390 --> 28:06.650
Our next. Time.

28:09.730 --> 28:10.650
This women are you.

28:11.270 --> 28:12.340
Made me come at a PC.

28:12.960 --> 28:16.400
Um our our next de when
this dubious set up.

28:18.180 --> 28:20.490
Yes says by phone professor
show about half.

28:21.530 --> 28:23.640
A a professor of welcome to our.

28:24.370 --> 28:25.870
Handled it um.

28:26.490 --> 28:29.530
Even by remote the
you may proceed.

28:31.440 --> 28:33.940
Here. Right to act.

28:35.780 --> 28:39.880
Thank you very much a for inviting
me the big payday um and I

28:39.880 --> 28:44.040
appreciate your allowing me to participate
by telephone and I'm

28:44.070 --> 28:47.960
very sorry. I can't be daren't
per and I hope you can hear me

28:47.960 --> 28:51.340
can you hear me clearly. Yes very
well everybody a that health

28:51.340 --> 28:56.370
and not just a adapt to do that the
American line betrayed project

28:56.370 --> 29:00.090
revive the for quote fall provision
of the model penal code.

29:00.710 --> 29:05.310
Uh and and you know the M P the
is not formally enacted a lot

29:05.340 --> 29:06.960
anywhere in the United States.

29:07.500 --> 29:10.860
Of but it's been a model for fake
like inflation and the call

29:10.920 --> 29:16.330
coorg often referred to lead actor commentary
a short for the authority.

29:16.880 --> 29:21.780
Um. I would be the mp3 with that
actually promote gated and I

29:21.890 --> 29:23.170
can pick in who.

29:23.670 --> 29:27.300
Had their facto upfront provision
are the called it vyrt pain.

29:27.800 --> 29:30.650
And be even older that that it was
actually drafted in the night.

29:30.740 --> 29:31.580
If it be.

29:32.310 --> 29:35.880
So article to third painted dramatically
out of date and the

29:35.880 --> 29:39.320
meter abide. This is the parent
for quite some time.

29:40.150 --> 29:44.570
Some of that most wearing was include
gender the language that

29:44.880 --> 29:49.870
pick tory and vocabulary a coup
hurricane and door of the that

29:49.870 --> 29:54.890
very broad marital rape victim and
uh it also approved antiquated

29:54.920 --> 29:58.610
cricketers touches. Prompt complain
requires and her admiration

29:58.610 --> 29:59.870
for cormac a lot.

30:00.890 --> 30:05.930
However the yogurt can be a B of lot
the more fundamental problem.

30:06.460 --> 30:09.860
That the whole structure of article
to third pain than they have

30:09.860 --> 30:14.040
the traditional notion that rape
of the crime involving physical

30:14.040 --> 30:15.590
force or threat the pilot.

30:16.330 --> 30:19.970
And some extent that continues to be
the law in many American state.

30:20.600 --> 30:25.310
But it now very widely recognized with
the approaches part can narrow.

30:26.090 --> 30:30.520
No it widely recognized that the
fourth and that include all

30:30.520 --> 30:34.470
forms of sexual penetration.
But again you like that.

30:35.280 --> 30:39.080
Uh. Art from confirmed that the
output that could be felt the

30:39.080 --> 30:43.480
major in the the for revisions
to move article conferred came

30:43.970 --> 30:47.190
away from a found that the
an purely physical threat.

30:47.950 --> 30:51.580
Event as the grounded in a protection
against any interference

30:51.730 --> 30:53.490
with freedom of that call for it.

30:54.680 --> 30:59.210
A B L lyre were approved the revision
project in the brain have

30:59.250 --> 31:00.310
20 twelve.

31:00.920 --> 31:05.290
Uh I'm a appointed me has reporter
which means only that i've

31:05.290 --> 31:09.080
leave every church and the crap thing
I'd leave the couple patient.

31:09.740 --> 31:13.360
With different a alive that luxury
committee but the ultimate

31:13.360 --> 31:14.720
that vision will be buried.

31:15.240 --> 31:18.620
By the American what the
truth membership at all.

31:19.810 --> 31:22.330
So far we've produced quite
a bit of mercurial.

31:23.000 --> 31:25.830
And I think I have that and that's
where we're headed but that

31:25.830 --> 31:30.390
the time being not of our work product
carries any official pale.

31:30.390 --> 31:31.450
I door mat.

31:32.180 --> 31:36.310
I play we weren't leave the year
after two years away from having

31:36.310 --> 31:37.050
a document.

31:37.640 --> 31:39.630
With formal a alive approval.

31:40.250 --> 31:43.220
Uh I'd like to give you a very
brief overview of the kind of

31:43.250 --> 31:44.720
issues we're working on.

31:45.230 --> 31:49.790
A I should probably mentioned for
the season balboa lead dirge.

31:50.380 --> 31:54.070
A sacred quote look it has to get
through to being a grant from

31:54.070 --> 31:59.030
the fate and We take into account. What
appear to be the prevailing or.

31:59.610 --> 32:03.470
A more pick fast bowler more
widely adopted approach is.

32:04.070 --> 32:08.000
Of oh we're not pride in any way
to fight hat might happen to

32:08.000 --> 32:09.460
be that we're going to do.

32:09.980 --> 32:12.920
Cracks that in many of the
big myth there's no way.

32:13.510 --> 32:17.280
Uh I suspect that we will probably
in-store but I currently be

32:17.280 --> 32:18.530
human already do that.

32:19.130 --> 32:22.010
In a one that could pave the perhaps.

32:22.850 --> 32:26.000
An emerging trend or one that ought
to be followed even that

32:26.110 --> 32:26.760
have yet.

32:27.380 --> 32:32.640
Been widely recognized. So. Right
there are many issues that

32:32.640 --> 32:33.560
we're working on.

32:34.730 --> 32:38.970
One very proud that of a shoe do
the above entry issue especially

32:39.080 --> 32:42.630
grape yield per vision like
federal court for pain.

32:43.210 --> 32:47.280
And uh well event that and that the
defendant prior crimes under

32:47.340 --> 32:48.940
the pool for portraying.

32:49.560 --> 32:52.390
A court this general uh.

32:53.280 --> 32:56.200
Prior sexual activity of the
complaining with that.

32:56.810 --> 33:00.620
Is from ruled in the deductible under
the provisions but they're

33:00.620 --> 33:01.800
a lot of exception.

33:02.360 --> 33:06.600
Uh some of them are more doubt
fall some of the exception for

33:07.020 --> 33:11.300
the central. To a fair trial
and the central accurate.

33:11.840 --> 33:14.470
Fact-finding that those
blind heard that call.

33:15.140 --> 33:18.840
Up but the larger have with for the
most basic that of the issues.

33:19.340 --> 33:22.440
Tube in the area of up with
that crime defamation.

33:23.280 --> 33:26.620
The call of the show comes physical
fortune resistant.

33:27.440 --> 33:29.100
What can that they that bad.

33:29.630 --> 33:31.040
Required for to confront.

33:31.630 --> 33:36.070
A wide range of different kinds of
impediment kitchen you like that.

33:36.710 --> 33:40.320
There we have to like which impediment
good or should not trigger

33:40.320 --> 33:41.590
criminal liability.

33:42.410 --> 33:45.540
And we all know happy get i've
purdy that the back and think

33:45.540 --> 33:47.830
category because the new code.

33:48.500 --> 33:52.440
Little applied quote a pariah the
of the current behavior and

33:52.440 --> 33:56.190
we have to be sure that what we
cover the readily capri have

33:56.240 --> 34:00.630
the ball and we also have to be
sure that we differentiate and

34:00.630 --> 34:04.950
appropriate play between more period
of last period crying that

34:04.980 --> 34:05.400
would be it.

34:06.590 --> 34:12.070
So overall the drafting effort a
hybrid they we have three did

34:12.170 --> 34:14.170
think kinds of challenges.

34:14.960 --> 34:19.130
Um. Pretty is drawing good
depth of the boundary.

34:19.740 --> 34:23.990
A again organizing the strike in
february about lawyers opposed

34:23.990 --> 34:26.600
ordinary people can understand.

34:27.220 --> 34:31.660
And thirdly the one we expand the
criminal law to the left violent

34:31.760 --> 34:32.730
form that that you.

34:33.410 --> 34:37.250
Uh we have to make sure that grating
and authorized punishment.

34:37.910 --> 34:40.470
Don't pick phebe gravity
the new fad.

34:42.060 --> 34:47.400
Uh we work rooted issue a week thing
could be headed toward having fired.

34:47.490 --> 34:49.450
The thing I see the actual a bad.

34:50.510 --> 34:55.650
Race is just record by coworker
and Organs that you can work

34:55.650 --> 34:59.740
their way patient and last lady
and record without affirmative

34:59.740 --> 35:03.170
come back. Uh I'd like to think
more about that than a minute

35:03.170 --> 35:07.360
but those are the five and they
found the And we will all know

35:07.360 --> 35:11.690
have parallel provision for contacted
them short of a crazy.

35:12.590 --> 35:17.100
Uh. And and can turn the race for
a week I that that we will

35:17.100 --> 35:19.060
probably use the label rate.

35:19.810 --> 35:23.730
A roughly speaking to cover the
truth involving physical force.

35:24.520 --> 35:29.720
A coercion and abuse by non violent
brad or abuse the but barbie.

35:30.340 --> 35:34.530
Uh and disregarded pick up for pupils
because that another word

35:34.640 --> 35:36.220
that melamine note the Kuwait.

35:37.580 --> 35:41.760
And the yen is the beauty without
bending brett short Courier

35:41.820 --> 35:45.880
Doherty complete by taking advantage
of the perk and think about it.

35:46.490 --> 35:50.140
But there's been the person that
the minor were there to be early

35:50.140 --> 35:52.010
grown dramatically to table.

35:52.530 --> 35:57.000
A Have them to welcome figured that
a minute ago that the area

35:57.000 --> 36:00.990
then provocation that extremely according
to the the ball a large

36:00.990 --> 36:02.630
number of the tradition.

36:03.230 --> 36:06.150
All the wine work very
important that have.

36:06.870 --> 36:10.230
Uh we think it was gonna work effectively
it's important to have.

36:10.840 --> 36:15.950
But comprehensible lie that that
makes clear how much and can

36:16.000 --> 36:20.230
can Kaka case and that is too much
and how much is that the cart

36:20.280 --> 36:21.980
which all those bad.

36:22.670 --> 36:26.120
Realm of perfect we can control
the cruel activity.

36:26.720 --> 36:28.640
Of people have something to correct.

36:29.250 --> 36:34.390
Uh so in addition to the beauty without
any a threat short Courier Bharti.

36:35.090 --> 36:37.560
Uh. Back and include.

36:38.090 --> 36:41.350
And the bank after the area not
only one from what for minor

36:41.430 --> 36:45.310
work dearly drunk all. So when
they're mentally fabled.

36:45.890 --> 36:49.410
Uh that beg kind of abuse the TARP
covered even if the victim

36:49.440 --> 36:53.460
didn't bandeau. And fact even the victim
like roughly that you have.

36:54.070 --> 36:57.800
Uh you could a fear that that that
that the notion that collector

36:57.800 --> 36:58.760
court plant that there.

36:59.570 --> 37:01.190
Would be covered in the area.

37:01.900 --> 37:06.680
A fourth a wide export patient and about
the use of professional truck.

37:07.470 --> 37:11.020
A well a certain that that vick form
that that that can probably

37:11.090 --> 37:15.670
do but we'll identified for the
that the action and again knows

37:15.670 --> 37:19.400
what applies even if the victim
of the deadly attack brought

37:19.680 --> 37:20.790
upon look that.

37:21.830 --> 37:25.800
And then the final category would be
enter court without affirmative

37:25.800 --> 37:26.460
can bad.

37:26.980 --> 37:29.160
And not occur up with
the situation which.

37:29.680 --> 37:33.530
The victim was have that perhaps because
the price and pocket cage.

37:34.360 --> 37:38.960
Uh. I've been coogan that mr. Welcome
them that they're the fact

37:38.960 --> 37:41.250
that we be like of liam
there for a day.

37:41.870 --> 37:45.090
Uh it's not the prevailing
view of that uh.

37:46.190 --> 37:49.030
That the best conduct
should be punished.

37:49.610 --> 37:53.770
Uh. Simply because there's no affirmative
expression of can that that.

37:54.320 --> 37:57.870
The situation where the victim
made the power of the because

37:57.870 --> 38:00.990
the Price for inability to it a.

38:01.880 --> 38:05.930
Be coherent way because of an entire
vacation vote situation.

38:06.470 --> 38:10.270
Would be covered even when the victim
didn't think roughly repaired.

38:10.940 --> 38:16.480
Work thing about a elevate they they didn't
roughly give affirmative confessed.

38:16.480 --> 38:16.970
He there.

38:17.490 --> 38:21.620
And the judgment that would be diaper
creepy of the the circumstance

38:21.870 --> 38:22.930
would be a bit.

38:23.660 --> 38:27.640
Uh. I I don't like the complexity
of the structure.

38:28.250 --> 38:32.120
With pride that think a provision
worried about something like

38:32.150 --> 38:32.930
that cried.

38:33.650 --> 38:37.590
Uh but didn't think to be no good
alternative uh the reform of

38:37.590 --> 38:38.960
leading up to the than me.

38:39.560 --> 38:43.240
Bewick bend the criminal law to reach
the think kind of the year.

38:43.910 --> 38:47.380
Evercore lot them together we'd out
really amplify anything work

38:47.380 --> 38:50.040
of the likely to create confusion.

38:50.550 --> 38:54.590
And that fraught with danger of punishment
that would run forever proportion.

38:55.220 --> 39:00.140
The theory is that the the plot violent
and Uh we have one other

39:00.140 --> 39:05.620
problem on our agenda a sex offender registration
and community notification.

39:06.190 --> 39:09.400
I did so met the you'd be a good
open peel. But the problem.

39:10.070 --> 39:13.880
But our work on that issue might
become relevant your of in one

39:13.880 --> 39:14.750
respect because.

39:15.670 --> 39:20.270
We find a lot of grief and to worried
that the girl or not and

39:20.270 --> 39:24.340
many of the state law provision for
registration and notification.

39:25.190 --> 39:29.830
Are a considerably over abroad and
there's a lot of replica worry

39:29.830 --> 39:31.780
that the blog can backfire.

39:32.320 --> 39:34.640
And may actually make
community like that.

39:35.310 --> 39:39.200
And the threat eight Bennett become
important produce the hampshire

39:39.200 --> 39:42.770
found the The the clapper private
ways that with them and that

39:42.770 --> 39:43.840
kurt Kruger.

39:44.390 --> 39:48.470
And appropriate burdened and turn
up registration and notification.

39:49.640 --> 39:53.470
Uh the vivid been a bit more I could
they are current candidate

39:53.470 --> 39:56.970
drafted about a hundred and 30 pages
long but I think I'll get

39:57.050 --> 39:57.430
to have.

39:57.970 --> 40:03.000
A printout of I'm very grateful to
prove that and the up for work.

40:03.000 --> 40:04.230
I hope we can continue.

40:04.750 --> 40:06.540
The being communication. I feel.

40:07.580 --> 40:09.790
Thank you very much professor um.

40:10.550 --> 40:13.110
So we start lists a questions
from the panel.

40:14.520 --> 40:15.270
To show its.

40:16.220 --> 40:20.520
Um. Many of you found perhaps you
have professor. I don't know.

40:21.080 --> 40:25.210
I've taken a look at our to ask
which is to look in the current

40:25.210 --> 40:26.870
version of um.

40:27.560 --> 40:30.240
Article one 20 and um.

40:31.500 --> 40:33.850
Think of bad it in the context
of.. Improvements.

40:34.690 --> 40:38.610
Improvements. I would.

40:39.840 --> 40:40.470
The decree.

40:41.060 --> 40:42.500
I missed yes it was.

40:43.010 --> 40:46.120
Okay thank you. I should say I didn't
hear your question about

40:46.120 --> 40:49.430
I heard it only a very very Glee.
I heard the with the from very

40:49.430 --> 40:50.270
clearly that.

40:50.780 --> 40:54.240
Of a when the chair with speaking
and and when you were speaking

40:54.240 --> 40:56.260
I like the lady that differently.

40:56.990 --> 40:58.210
A year that so.

40:59.070 --> 41:03.750
I don't know if anything can be
a if we get to wear that of the

41:05.070 --> 41:06.420
I'll try to speak louder.

41:07.750 --> 41:11.300
Um I took a look at the use
the and gay parent a um.

41:12.540 --> 41:15.200
Alright I can be where
you're dealing west a.

41:15.890 --> 41:20.240
Lies to pay the day. I think there
is a about many issues but

41:20.310 --> 41:21.030
I haven't.

41:21.610 --> 41:26.780
A back down to can bitter what what
I would do with that uh in

41:26.780 --> 41:28.290
many respects. I think it.

41:29.040 --> 41:32.900
It might not be that much different
from what would we would

41:32.930 --> 41:36.690
and that are appropriate with respect
the state law that the

41:37.340 --> 41:41.480
Although in for respect the military
content clearly would be. Different.

41:45.400 --> 41:50.380
The top of your hand do you see and and
I'm really speaking very generally.

41:50.590 --> 41:52.790
I'm tea seen any value to.

41:53.320 --> 41:59.060
A and Mm time taking aim have penetrated
the fences and separating

41:59.060 --> 42:02.210
out deen and non penetrated
the fences sit.

42:03.170 --> 42:06.130
It is is there something
that that that I'm.

42:06.950 --> 42:08.550
You see as a value to that.

42:09.080 --> 42:10.890
I'm I'm trying to figure out.

42:11.810 --> 42:14.860
What value that might have
been is something that we.

42:15.830 --> 42:17.600
Um you know has been. Suggested.

42:20.110 --> 42:24.130
Here to get the break out cricket
committee praised which pal

42:24.130 --> 42:28.600
member will I'm sorry this is Barbara
jones go check out that

42:28.630 --> 42:29.370
the ticket for about.

42:30.020 --> 42:30.730
So. I'm

42:33.060 --> 42:38.020
In general it been tradition all
can separate a hand I think

42:38.020 --> 42:41.590
the print football value was doing
that it could be very clear

42:41.590 --> 42:43.670
about grading collector the could.

42:44.250 --> 42:49.400
The penetrated the fat typically arts
and deterred much more period.

42:50.230 --> 42:53.960
Very easy to be shoe or a can can
you um because some of the

42:53.960 --> 42:55.310
contact defend the.

42:55.900 --> 43:00.590
Uh can be quite period. But
they all so it and Two.

43:01.230 --> 43:03.630
I training of that can be.

43:04.160 --> 43:05.510
A laugh area.

43:06.150 --> 43:10.630
Uh can be a a. A let her matter. A.

43:13.510 --> 43:18.830
In and turn the of when an offender
should be on notice that

43:18.870 --> 43:22.320
he has really cropped and absolutely
unacceptable lot.

43:23.230 --> 43:27.040
One of the reasons why had believed
we would be heading toward.

43:27.920 --> 43:32.410
I'm a fan of a enter Couric without
affirmative permission.

43:33.620 --> 43:37.330
Even know that about the currently
prevailing view is that that

43:37.610 --> 43:41.150
that that no one should
take without having.

43:41.790 --> 43:42.660
Permitted permit.

43:43.440 --> 43:47.920
I'm that much harder to you dad and
the contact of patching that

43:47.920 --> 43:51.970
might be a good been Mickey Gore
for for usher got the backed

43:51.970 --> 43:56.500
ryder something of back. So so.
Yeah I think our judgment would

43:56.500 --> 44:00.400
be that we're a better it would be
very important to try to keep

44:00.450 --> 44:01.660
those that have. Pepper.

44:07.070 --> 44:07.740
You learn.

44:09.410 --> 44:13.790
Have you actually gone to the a
category that you jesse TARP

44:13.790 --> 44:17.900
to bat of caught the category of
contact. I'm told me that and

44:17.900 --> 44:22.410
taught a doubt when there and I
can this maybe I'm more than

44:22.720 --> 44:23.660
a military.

44:24.170 --> 44:30.020
Pact code issue. Then we see your
um model penal code that to

44:30.020 --> 44:34.890
it and to to considering where
there are some definitions it

44:35.210 --> 44:39.620
may not there were some some acts
may not be criminal have you

44:39.650 --> 44:42.740
have you I looked at and that
and if the spectrum.

44:44.330 --> 44:44.740
Uh um.

44:45.680 --> 44:49.070
The an ancient this the question
of the weather.

44:49.890 --> 44:51.900
Tom kite so cried about.

44:52.540 --> 44:56.760
Whether we we should come to it
that norm at this judgment that

44:56.760 --> 44:57.670
the criminal bought.

44:58.430 --> 45:03.020
The Greek so far but not further
my do ssn tacky than I mean

45:03.020 --> 45:08.360
to to give you some context um that
that that there were poets

45:08.360 --> 45:12.120
where the hey aren't you
response plan all.

45:12.750 --> 45:15.620
Um data have some concern that.

45:16.190 --> 45:21.010
The some contact that was being
captured at least in the work

45:21.470 --> 45:26.630
that gender relations survey was
not actually criminal it was

45:26.630 --> 45:31.260
contacts but may not have been criminal
it might of been harassment.

45:31.760 --> 45:35.570
Um and there was a said that that
we were concerned they're my

45:35.600 --> 45:39.340
and a half fuzzy line there and maybe
that's just a problem with

45:39.340 --> 45:44.290
the survey instrument and and not
not their peano car adorable

45:44.650 --> 45:48.720
in your case already uniform curve
military justice in ours.

45:49.050 --> 45:52.070
I was just wondering if they're
been in a discussion about.

45:52.640 --> 45:53.940
The bat that that.

45:55.130 --> 45:56.570
Yes they're not back here.

45:57.770 --> 46:01.300
Have been I think you put your finger
on a very very a problem.

46:01.890 --> 46:05.580
Uh it for like a problem and turn
the pervade because people.

46:06.270 --> 46:11.560
Don't a off and understand a word
but mad it even if you add

46:11.600 --> 46:16.100
that you've been rate and One of the
notorious problem and forbade

46:16.210 --> 46:21.040
bird has been that people who clearly
who deprived conduct that

46:21.040 --> 46:23.520
clearly and fall up for the ball.

46:24.100 --> 46:28.360
Not and bejeweled penetration a
could not think that this does

46:28.360 --> 46:31.890
late to that they were operating
a hundred political and they

46:31.890 --> 46:34.710
were on a date they might think about
the automatically equipment

46:34.710 --> 46:35.200
that right.

46:36.110 --> 46:38.500
So on one side of the
line people of fat.

46:39.080 --> 46:44.010
Have an extremely a unduly narrow
a view of what's a lot.

46:44.750 --> 46:47.690
Clearly prohibit the man on the
other side of he played that

46:47.690 --> 46:50.530
night the and and the work people
might think I'm short a.

46:51.060 --> 46:52.590
Hostile work environment.

46:53.990 --> 46:55.700
They might think that uh.

46:56.360 --> 46:59.660
Action in that context where criminal
when they are it so.

47:00.330 --> 47:03.250
You have that kind of a question
but we ago I think your of the

47:03.250 --> 47:05.770
putting your finger on and
that's always about.

47:06.480 --> 47:12.290
When we deprive what a lot that cover
a pal mike to get that appropriate.

47:12.830 --> 47:16.790
To it than to criminal prosecution
an area of were you have.

47:17.420 --> 47:22.580
Invalid a of authority and control
for abuse of the guardian.

47:23.120 --> 47:27.470
That is the fact that that we uh uh
had quite a bit of the russian

47:27.470 --> 47:31.240
about and quite a bit of the russian
about how to Crow about

47:31.500 --> 47:32.660
why be current.

47:33.550 --> 47:36.400
There are very clear danger.

47:37.040 --> 47:43.770
Of a abuse. And the situation of
paper metric power and I would

47:44.160 --> 47:46.810
think and with the especially
for when the military.

47:47.390 --> 47:49.560
Uh but on the other hand um.

47:50.690 --> 47:55.310
We is one to beef and that is the
did not over extending the

47:55.310 --> 47:59.510
criminal law a that not to
get too far ahead of.

48:00.350 --> 48:03.730
Quote don't know armed and
all that respect people a.

48:04.350 --> 48:06.590
Bright and me for her.

48:07.160 --> 48:09.760
Relationship that really are
mutually can control.

48:12.920 --> 48:18.130
She. I you there's this with this
it. Yes thank you and this

48:18.130 --> 48:22.190
one into um address your question
in. Context of what we look

48:22.190 --> 48:25.360
down when we first started doing
this research on rape and sexual

48:25.360 --> 48:29.290
assault across the country. We sat
down with our staff to johnathan

48:29.290 --> 48:32.360
have accents fixed variants a man's
confirming crimes. We sat

48:32.360 --> 48:35.320
down with women's law prejudging
other professionals to really

48:35.320 --> 48:37.670
look get what they solve
when they were.

48:38.460 --> 48:41.760
Investigating and prosecuting cases
in so just considering that

48:41.760 --> 48:42.720
conducts covered.

48:43.370 --> 48:46.750
And by back to what john and mentioned
about language being clear

48:46.750 --> 48:48.160
and concise and simple.

48:49.010 --> 48:50.220
It goes down to that.

48:50.760 --> 48:53.780
Is helpful for my which of the
statue and then the next step

48:53.780 --> 48:57.270
is how it supplied by the courts
and so we've done some looking.

48:57.770 --> 49:01.680
And are continuing to do research on
how courts have up I definitions

49:01.850 --> 49:05.100
of force and can sen and thinking
about what's the sufficient

49:05.100 --> 49:09.110
level of force and even though on
their faces the statutes might

49:09.110 --> 49:11.140
not appear as flexible.

49:11.770 --> 49:15.950
We've seen the application to be
more comprehensive on in some

49:15.950 --> 49:19.880
States and so it really goes down to
how the statutes are implemented

49:19.880 --> 49:24.400
pout that prosecutors I'm go for it
with their cases be investigation

49:24.400 --> 49:28.940
so to sing considering how much connect
is covered simple language

49:28.940 --> 49:32.710
can cover a lot of conduct it just
depends on how it's implemented

49:32.710 --> 49:34.580
but that's something we've
Son-san considered.

49:35.120 --> 49:36.750
So just wanted to add that. Point.

49:40.600 --> 49:45.080
The or or whatever you can just
to keep on going from Oman on

49:45.080 --> 49:47.930
this and I'm one of
our to ask says to.

49:48.770 --> 49:54.070
Um the assess article one 20 and then
it goes on to say was recommendations

49:54.190 --> 49:55.670
that from true vents.

49:56.210 --> 49:58.940
I mean implementation as
a statute and it says.

49:59.530 --> 50:03.630
Can sit or advise ability of amendment
to cover situation where

50:04.020 --> 50:08.760
one commits sexual or a hat act
upon another by abusing one's

50:08.790 --> 50:13.490
position in the chain of command to
gain access to work quote worse.

50:13.490 --> 50:17.880
The other person and professor show hope
hop hop is that correctional offer.

50:19.130 --> 50:23.630
Opera. Um I think that's been jester.
You are talking about meow

50:23.740 --> 50:27.010
inequality and our right
here. We have um.

50:28.000 --> 50:28.970
And the military.

50:29.740 --> 50:33.850
Rank a word and and the I leader
versus a new recruit shall.

50:33.850 --> 50:39.770
We say I'm a where are you that with
respect to that and announces

50:39.810 --> 50:40.890
if a if any were.

50:41.540 --> 50:43.090
Yeah well what we do.

50:43.610 --> 50:46.340
Have with everything that
i've been burying um.

50:46.940 --> 50:51.280
Uh I have like and give you a bunch
of us where our work and

50:51.380 --> 50:55.590
the be heading a and I'm proud
of lee giving them much waited

50:55.590 --> 50:58.870
that my own personal you
uh let's make it.

51:00.300 --> 51:01.490
The at the door.

51:02.100 --> 51:06.050
But like a in that we're back to we've
looked a lot that different

51:06.370 --> 51:09.800
relationship of a power and authority.

51:10.320 --> 51:15.950
Uh one area. I think we feel quite
clear about a making criminal

51:15.990 --> 51:16.910
perk day.

51:17.450 --> 51:20.480
Uh when the without regard
and a rat or.

51:21.320 --> 51:24.820
Evident that color and but that
any that color relation that

51:24.900 --> 51:25.360
would be.

51:25.880 --> 51:27.360
Criminal Perth day.

51:27.980 --> 51:29.810
When it in the fall a.

51:30.540 --> 51:35.450
A super-sized us toward an expert
and we object to them short of.

51:36.260 --> 51:41.390
Date impose restrictions on liberty
that that would include a

51:41.560 --> 51:47.560
for later in may a and at guard
uh the quite comment situation

51:47.660 --> 51:53.690
where and and they pay a B agree a
very directly agree have backed

51:53.690 --> 51:55.360
with a garden return for.

51:55.900 --> 51:58.200
A was maybe the are out of.

51:58.740 --> 52:03.720
Harm or it may be a hand and that the
patient of favorable treatment.

52:04.330 --> 52:08.070
A favorable privileges either ways
those relationship should

52:08.070 --> 52:09.600
be criminal birthday.

52:10.200 --> 52:14.010
And we were tick picked and the
same time that would situation

52:14.010 --> 52:18.370
Leopard and flick the ball on probation
a with prospective their

52:18.370 --> 52:19.500
parole officer.

52:20.090 --> 52:24.220
Um and that the durian crime packed.
I don't think it likely

52:24.220 --> 52:26.960
that we would say the
relationship between.

52:27.490 --> 52:31.480
An employee a and unemployment supervisor.

52:32.030 --> 52:34.810
Would be a increment
the ball per day.

52:35.540 --> 52:36.800
We were able to.

52:38.130 --> 52:41.200
Outbreak criminal of the and that
would up by a what we would

52:41.200 --> 52:44.200
call a special an accord
like a word that.

52:45.240 --> 52:49.650
If an employee mad supervisor uh
anyone acting in it and the

52:49.650 --> 52:54.800
for coke. I have to be a implied
that there were either a job

52:54.830 --> 52:56.490
related uh uh.

52:57.350 --> 53:02.290
Bank and pack poorer benefits pride
to that people can that that

53:02.290 --> 53:02.810
would be.

53:04.100 --> 53:07.000
We retreat dad that criminal
coercion heard that.

53:07.650 --> 53:12.150
Uh but it is that relationship would
not be criminal and he had

53:12.420 --> 53:16.220
that has that a better with the and
we'll go and that the parallel

53:16.250 --> 53:19.080
the current federal control
her at the Wall with.

53:19.700 --> 53:23.510
A punishing quid pro
quo for cruel a.

53:24.190 --> 53:28.840
Conducts a better relationship between
a supervisor and a gordon

53:28.840 --> 53:30.240
as would not be criminal.

53:30.830 --> 53:32.190
A curb day.

53:32.720 --> 53:37.050
Uh. And it would not be criminal
that that it would do it had

53:37.050 --> 53:40.550
been no indication that the that
Kroll intra without welcome.

53:41.400 --> 53:46.130
So. You would require that the
sexual interest was unwelcome

53:46.550 --> 53:48.380
in the employer employee.

53:49.190 --> 53:53.310
A a situation the guard treason
or the PR all purvey shimmery

53:53.310 --> 53:56.390
that prisoner of it and
then probation or.

53:57.020 --> 53:58.530
Arm are basically.

53:59.450 --> 54:04.200
In a situation where they're liberties
is sam restricting would-be

54:04.390 --> 54:08.710
completely% correct even
if I'd like to a camp.

54:10.250 --> 54:14.120
And we're we're shooting but um
I might say we haven't gotten

54:14.420 --> 54:15.870
the about the military.

54:16.460 --> 54:19.450
If you wait Batman and
there's no reason why.

54:20.170 --> 54:24.930
And in your how could very well think
about the military situation

54:24.930 --> 54:28.820
was that that you need to itself
just um if there were some and

54:28.820 --> 54:33.230
alipay uh. I'm not sure whether
the right analogy would be.

54:33.740 --> 54:36.550
When ordinary appointment with
her way and were or whether it

54:36.550 --> 54:41.350
would be to a situation like a probation
officer at up a wholly.

54:41.890 --> 54:46.080
A and certainly have met many military
contact the pickle early

54:46.080 --> 54:49.630
within the chain of command and
There would be a fact and would

54:49.790 --> 54:52.560
be the board that uh is a.

54:53.390 --> 54:59.550
Object to retain the cup pervade
the A restrictions and their

54:59.610 --> 55:04.170
of liberty over which the the peter
offered are have a. Crawl.

55:08.590 --> 55:11.920
Well there are the something than
what will definitely be talking

55:11.920 --> 55:15.110
your bad to and I I don't have
any other questions except.

55:16.250 --> 55:18.680
I just wanted to make another addition
to complement one for

55:18.680 --> 55:22.070
social offer was saying and I'm
really does to cores and carole

55:22.070 --> 55:25.630
mention that coercion is being included
more and more in it something

55:25.630 --> 55:28.650
that we're seeing and right now
we're doing some research on

55:28.650 --> 55:31.650
coercion and sexual assault cases
which it's in the middle but

55:31.650 --> 55:33.330
we're happy to share with you I'm.

55:33.980 --> 55:38.220
Just i've seen that in how forces
up fighting case. Aha consent

55:38.220 --> 55:41.510
is look debt and there are military
cases already that also but

55:41.540 --> 55:45.700
at the relationship between the perpetrator
in offender considering

55:45.700 --> 55:48.950
their ranks. So I think it's something
that it is just currently

55:49.390 --> 55:50.620
in some.

55:51.420 --> 55:54.650
To some extent to just seeing how
that might be working out in

55:54.650 --> 55:57.790
other States and within the military
are ready to spend acid. Attack.

56:00.440 --> 56:04.070
Maybe I'm a surgeon did you say there
were cases out there involving

56:04.400 --> 56:08.130
this since in state courts. Yes
and it's something considered.

56:09.120 --> 56:11.690
The judges primarily consider the
totality the circumstances

56:11.690 --> 56:14.840
when it comes to consent and forcing
what that might mean in

56:14.840 --> 56:19.550
each case. And I know I'm it goes
back to just what is presented

56:19.550 --> 56:23.330
to the court for each individual
case by case. Thank you.

56:24.240 --> 56:25.550
Thank you bad rope.

56:26.950 --> 56:29.260
That. But in a questions right now.

56:29.840 --> 56:30.460
And just go.

56:31.250 --> 56:33.640
Yeah this is a victors down um.

56:34.500 --> 56:37.780
I guess that the professor that
first question that are kirsten

56:37.780 --> 56:43.430
the is. Um you that said dad it
depends on these social more

56:43.430 --> 56:44.590
miss involved.

56:45.170 --> 56:47.820
And we're dealing with a a situation.

56:48.500 --> 56:52.100
The here it seems to me that's
a very different from civilian

56:52.100 --> 56:56.570
societies social norms a one
way or in a combat zone.

56:57.110 --> 57:01.840
Um and people may think fail left
the that they are living today

57:01.840 --> 57:04.060
and didn't get blown away
earlier on the day.

57:04.730 --> 57:08.710
And they'll life expectancy is very
questionable by the end of

57:08.710 --> 57:09.260
the week.

57:10.020 --> 57:14.490
Um. It seems to me that's a very
different set a social norms

57:14.490 --> 57:18.770
the easiest case is the one you mention
one it's a superior officer

57:18.970 --> 57:22.020
but I'm much more concerned with
the case once tool offices of

57:22.020 --> 57:26.350
the same rank. While oregon that
it's not clear that the the

57:26.380 --> 57:30.360
that the victim as into superior
or to set and Uh I guess.

57:30.360 --> 57:33.130
I'm wondering whether
you'll have any.

57:33.680 --> 57:38.650
Um bad material's to be dead
you can share with us.

57:39.320 --> 57:41.420
Yeah look that I'm.

57:41.930 --> 57:46.160
People in these incredibly stressed
situations. Uh oven.

57:46.790 --> 57:50.330
The and whether or not the Aurora
different exceptions of what

57:50.330 --> 57:54.800
defenses for the been definitions
of can sand.

57:55.360 --> 57:58.510
Patent which are a little but
what it and help us at dress.

57:59.100 --> 58:02.960
I'm 80 the fact that there are
in an ongoing relationship be

58:02.960 --> 58:05.910
there on the fact that there are
ongoing relationship may be

58:05.910 --> 58:08.210
a quote depending team to keep them.

58:08.930 --> 58:13.830
Safe a um and that and see it's
not something they can easily.

58:14.330 --> 58:17.230
To combine sometimes they're
that relationship this.

58:18.000 --> 58:22.110
Is not going away um and in and
also a curse to me it may be

58:22.110 --> 58:23.150
a relationship but not.

58:23.680 --> 58:26.570
That the in an organisation with
the only way they can continue

58:26.570 --> 58:29.740
to face the danger there are and
I'm the is that they can some

58:29.740 --> 58:34.870
more alcohol or the oven just have
a lot of adrenaline flowing

58:35.170 --> 58:38.370
in in order to keep the a readiness
up because there are you

58:38.370 --> 58:43.680
not if facing the I'm a situation
that is not typical I'm in

58:43.710 --> 58:47.770
in civil society and dean of any
materials or what have you would

58:47.770 --> 58:51.010
any views. On that and I guess away
as kuala the panel members

58:51.010 --> 58:54.530
who commented if they have something
to address that the the

58:54.530 --> 58:55.800
uniqueness of that he up.

58:58.340 --> 59:01.310
I am pratt for his heart although
right right right. Thank you

59:01.310 --> 59:05.640
up to one of the other panel members
to a comment than that.

59:06.220 --> 59:11.270
Um who we have we do look at that have
pain in the number of weight.

59:11.870 --> 59:14.050
Uh. Yeah we do um.

59:14.880 --> 59:16.310
Whether dry that.

59:17.360 --> 59:20.090
I'm not sure about reading correctly
between the lines of your

59:20.120 --> 59:21.040
comment about it.

59:21.560 --> 59:24.630
There might be an implication that
beating enough for a whole

59:24.680 --> 59:29.610
situation them about operate
to mitigate or it to.

59:30.110 --> 59:33.530
What might otherwise seem to
be that will over reaching.

59:34.520 --> 59:41.260
Um. And so we have other context
that it with that situation.

59:41.900 --> 59:45.030
Rises and I think we would be
quite clear that dress.

59:45.670 --> 59:50.670
Uh. It that that we can mean um you
know that have been mitigation

59:50.670 --> 59:53.170
or work do with with Ridley not.

59:53.960 --> 59:57.580
Formally enter the picture in terms
of whether conduct with criminal

59:57.580 --> 59:58.660
or not that I.

59:59.390 --> 01:00:01.720
A B of mitigating factor in that.

01:00:02.640 --> 01:00:06.810
A on the other hand that might
be appropriate uh the day that

01:00:07.060 --> 01:00:09.900
the fight with the current
situation starstruck paul.

01:00:10.460 --> 01:00:14.380
Uh there might be more of an infantry
obligation would that were.

01:00:14.930 --> 01:00:19.200
Clear boundary and to could take
on board from the beginning.

01:00:19.700 --> 01:00:24.530
That vampy a good natured that that
kind of the dynamic and do.

01:00:25.120 --> 01:00:28.720
That down three so that that is
that the league would you.

01:00:29.400 --> 01:00:32.940
A week free with a with respect to.

01:00:33.650 --> 01:00:35.490
Uh how culprit they awful.

01:00:36.680 --> 01:00:38.280
Play that pervades the role.

01:00:38.810 --> 01:00:43.590
Uh and the betting of colleges with
young people and the court

01:00:43.660 --> 01:00:45.140
they're not to know uh.

01:00:45.750 --> 01:00:49.440
And like forgot combat situation
by by a lot about.

01:00:50.120 --> 01:00:52.070
A vote we do buying that uh.

01:00:52.700 --> 01:00:56.690
That predictor breathe and A young
people like very little like

01:00:56.800 --> 01:01:01.500
a experience with alcohol windup that
drinking too much and things

01:01:01.500 --> 01:01:04.720
get out of hand and that that's something
that we are definitely.

01:01:05.240 --> 01:01:09.110
A draft thing and from our point
of view is how you know what

01:01:09.110 --> 01:01:12.490
I like that we gotta the
welcome to write that.

01:01:13.170 --> 01:01:17.520
Uh the good profit here it and and
below with situation. No matter

01:01:17.520 --> 01:01:18.820
what a lot of but.

01:01:19.610 --> 01:01:22.990
Think that that's the law with
respect and vacation of and I

01:01:22.990 --> 01:01:24.930
hope with lee modeled date.

01:01:25.640 --> 01:01:30.630
And That that every is uh I think
it would help ratification

01:01:30.630 --> 01:01:31.330
the manfully.

01:01:31.970 --> 01:01:36.250
Of them clear idea. Well where would
mean the fed that someone

01:01:36.370 --> 01:01:37.450
who intoxicating.

01:01:37.960 --> 01:01:42.740
There are paid to all over the
map on the and It right in my

01:01:42.740 --> 01:01:46.360
view it becomes self destructive
to have the defamation the vote

01:01:46.360 --> 01:01:49.830
brought that leak literally.
It was good bye to.

01:01:50.360 --> 01:01:53.590
Nightie prevent the of
a uh that you truly.

01:01:54.380 --> 01:01:59.270
A dubai or sexual activity a that
occurred between people who've

01:01:59.270 --> 01:01:59.690
been great.

01:02:00.620 --> 01:02:03.360
But I would go into the left corner
with three that I think the

01:02:03.360 --> 01:02:06.410
the very inadequate. They
adhered to the very.

01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:10.620
At a question that have a lot of
very very difficult but that

01:02:10.620 --> 01:02:14.430
can do it. But the left point with
respect to social norm that.

01:02:15.510 --> 01:02:17.870
That that could be heard that
I went from a hundred good.

01:02:18.440 --> 01:02:22.410
Uh I what is the threat back
that in our or project.

01:02:23.300 --> 01:02:28.500
Uh we ate we look at what appeared paid
for doing what they were doing.

01:02:29.070 --> 01:02:32.830
A and in some way of course work I
get like that I think we wouldn't

01:02:32.950 --> 01:02:37.650
want to take a condition that had been fully
figured that rejected everywhere.

01:02:38.250 --> 01:02:42.980
Um but having said that we are
weird rock loop league. I did.

01:02:43.600 --> 01:02:46.710
Right away from that out there
and all the very that the the

01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:50.420
but the fact that a lot of like
deflation get through without

01:02:50.420 --> 01:02:54.150
very thoughtful configuration of
of the but it really mean so

01:02:54.150 --> 01:02:54.970
often of late.

01:02:55.670 --> 01:03:00.020
We are is trying to make our own judgment
about. Well what work that.

01:03:00.670 --> 01:03:05.260
Uh in terms of victim protection
as well as a parent that to

01:03:05.290 --> 01:03:05.990
you to.

01:03:06.640 --> 01:03:10.420
Um and so we can deter the prevailing
view and a lot and we can

01:03:10.460 --> 01:03:13.680
trigger vocal norm. But that
that we don't wanna go.

01:03:14.840 --> 01:03:16.240
So far that we.

01:03:16.810 --> 01:03:21.670
Pretty damn folk the day that back
that and that was pretty great.

01:03:22.400 --> 01:03:26.030
Invalid any kind that you do or the
party that the drinking that

01:03:26.030 --> 01:03:27.020
would be put procter.

01:03:27.750 --> 01:03:33.480
Um but but I'm all for an important
to come back here and I think

01:03:33.480 --> 01:03:35.990
the prize very directly
and you're like that.

01:03:37.010 --> 01:03:41.110
Uh we think dead an important function
of a lot of the communicate.

01:03:41.720 --> 01:03:48.200
Nor. And situation where what might be
generally that good social behavioral.

01:03:48.720 --> 01:03:52.460
A doesn't adequately take
into account a wreck.

01:03:53.450 --> 01:03:57.280
Uh to people who are vulnerable
situation than all often.

01:03:57.870 --> 01:03:58.670
But no army.

01:03:59.660 --> 01:04:01.090
It's taken for granted.

01:04:01.820 --> 01:04:04.530
Uh. But never as well
as by when men.

01:04:05.090 --> 01:04:08.870
Uh when without with them after
the general public that really

01:04:08.870 --> 01:04:10.050
doesn't appreciate.

01:04:10.590 --> 01:04:15.370
Uh how how to read the jerk kinda
behavior can be and and the

01:04:15.370 --> 01:04:16.470
weather could that be.

01:04:16.980 --> 01:04:21.040
About the control harmed greatly outweighed
the potential benefit.

01:04:21.580 --> 01:04:22.750
But we've won over them.

01:04:23.450 --> 01:04:27.320
We think a lot of the import raw
live and not being military

01:04:27.320 --> 01:04:30.740
Perth in my fell five I would
think that the ups gay.

01:04:31.250 --> 01:04:33.950
Has a very very important
role in looking out.

01:04:34.490 --> 01:04:38.130
No armed and thank-you defeat the
think be the norm but you know

01:04:38.130 --> 01:04:42.870
what for that is really dangerous
and can justifiably grow up

01:04:43.010 --> 01:04:44.240
and we showed.

01:04:44.750 --> 01:04:47.990
And speaking very abstract plate.
But you know I think it would be.

01:04:48.630 --> 01:04:52.180
In my view appropriate for your
alpha look out for going back

01:04:52.180 --> 01:04:55.120
to the them and they will there
from areas where something that

01:04:55.120 --> 01:04:56.070
everybody is that.

01:04:56.630 --> 01:04:59.810
Could not be expected that
tends to the GOP days.

01:05:01.410 --> 01:05:05.040
A provision that would try to
communicate very clearly.

01:05:05.570 --> 01:05:08.140
A better a standard of. Behavior.

01:05:10.430 --> 01:05:13.100
I would just like the
anti them on it.

01:05:13.790 --> 01:05:16.680
It seems to mean we're talking
about the history an evolution

01:05:16.680 --> 01:05:19.950
of the law of rape but I'm within
the context of the military

01:05:19.950 --> 01:05:24.060
of course there is a history. I'm
rate than the spoil afford.

01:05:24.710 --> 01:05:29.400
That the conquered um concrete
get one of that the victories

01:05:29.400 --> 01:05:32.940
employer was being able to raked
the female population to display

01:05:32.940 --> 01:05:34.970
of the population that
was seen as an.

01:05:35.600 --> 01:05:38.600
Anguish of male defeat more Ven um.

01:05:39.170 --> 01:05:45.400
Or I'm female harm and you know that's
that's centuries of history

01:05:45.430 --> 01:05:49.650
as centuries of military history
and I would assume that that

01:05:49.650 --> 01:05:54.750
has been part of some of the conversation.
I'm in the military

01:05:54.750 --> 01:06:00.870
because it's it's the it's been a
special entitlement that victors

01:06:00.870 --> 01:06:06.070
of war or have have had to throughout
centuries to rape the population

01:06:06.070 --> 01:06:06.840
of the defeated.

01:06:09.050 --> 01:06:12.640
Stick. Um so what i've been thinking
about your example um I

01:06:12.640 --> 01:06:17.810
think it's top two trying codified
it board list every situation

01:06:17.810 --> 01:06:20.750
that is possibly can rise up and
see what your law to be flexible

01:06:20.750 --> 01:06:23.940
enough and copper hence of an up
to cover those situations and

01:06:23.940 --> 01:06:26.780
the way you laid that out a all
would make me think about are

01:06:26.920 --> 01:06:30.280
these are the exact pieces of evidence.
I would want to examine

01:06:30.280 --> 01:06:31.640
look at and preserve.

01:06:32.390 --> 01:06:36.350
To proceed under theory of quarter
Zhen or a fear induced up

01:06:36.350 --> 01:06:39.800
by perpetrator and I wanna look
you know when your best getting

01:06:39.800 --> 01:06:42.140
these days you can't to so that the
four corners of the incident

01:06:42.140 --> 01:06:42.680
that happened.

01:06:43.550 --> 01:06:46.950
At the time of the sexual assault
that almost always is gonna

01:06:46.950 --> 01:06:50.250
be a he said she said situation we
have to look at what happened

01:06:50.250 --> 01:06:53.370
before that and what happened after
that and find out if there

01:06:53.370 --> 01:06:57.290
is evidence of perpetrate Zhen of
intention of plant scheme of

01:06:57.290 --> 01:07:00.120
trying to render someone ball marble
or taking advantage of an

01:07:00.120 --> 01:07:04.150
existing vulnerability but I I
don't know that it it you can

01:07:04.150 --> 01:07:08.110
list every single situation and
codified the answered that that

01:07:08.140 --> 01:07:10.980
will address this this way or it
that way if it's something is

01:07:10.980 --> 01:07:13.940
happening repeatedly though it probably
does me to be addressed

01:07:13.940 --> 01:07:17.880
in some fashion a of whether you
nelly specifically tailored

01:07:17.880 --> 01:07:20.730
to I know you were just giving it.
One example but these things

01:07:20.730 --> 01:07:23.780
happen uh and whether it's narrowed
to that situation or not

01:07:23.780 --> 01:07:26.770
because it happens in up that's
one consideration but I just

01:07:26.770 --> 01:07:30.600
want the existing law to have enough
flexibility and not so overly

01:07:30.600 --> 01:07:34.990
broad that it criminalises an anticipated
behavior um. But the

01:07:34.990 --> 01:07:37.210
enough flexibility that I could
cover that under at the area

01:07:37.210 --> 01:07:40.540
prong in my lot because that I'd
the Jeep stated that seems to

01:07:40.540 --> 01:07:44.360
be a very realistic situation that
is gonna happen and I'd want

01:07:44.390 --> 01:07:48.150
to be able to go after that when the
evidence is there that demonstrates

01:07:48.150 --> 01:07:51.660
someone did perpetrate this. They did
take advantage of the situation.

01:07:52.440 --> 01:07:58.380
I heard it but erratic of computing
a baby and crap day a perspective

01:07:58.380 --> 01:08:03.250
on that hole in a which is that
will be an academic guys have

01:08:03.690 --> 01:08:04.820
opposed to add a.

01:08:05.450 --> 01:08:09.350
Experienced practitioners perspective
and and put the ball a

01:08:09.760 --> 01:08:13.040
big print practitioners a
with right every time.

01:08:13.590 --> 01:08:16.530
A one of my greatest fear is what
I'd have to buy the somebody

01:08:16.530 --> 01:08:21.160
address that he had to thank you
for about her is a bit a clear.

01:08:21.910 --> 01:08:22.560
Yeah get there.

01:08:23.300 --> 01:08:24.620
Implication of that but.

01:08:25.140 --> 01:08:28.790
To give you another private uh.
I think that with mr. Woke up

01:08:28.790 --> 01:08:29.610
and I was the speaking.

01:08:30.660 --> 01:08:31.500
Yes sir it's.

01:08:32.270 --> 01:08:34.170
Yes that's right yet out of.

01:08:34.680 --> 01:08:38.010
Every I gotta Greek. I've you you're
absolutely right and what

01:08:38.010 --> 01:08:42.400
you that it out at the same time. I think
the looking at it from academic.

01:08:42.910 --> 01:08:46.610
Somewhat academic perspective one
of the thing we find coming

01:08:46.610 --> 01:08:49.670
back of the question of social
norms of that when a lot.

01:08:50.450 --> 01:08:52.300
Could not have to leave clear.

01:08:52.880 --> 01:08:57.130
Where did they could be like the
ball a it doesn't communicate

01:08:57.230 --> 01:09:00.770
that that that barely cleared the
food and I particularly when

01:09:00.770 --> 01:09:04.970
you're pushing his back. Yeah and
Oh tell no armed that has to

01:09:04.970 --> 01:09:07.710
be in the patiently protect the um.

01:09:08.590 --> 01:09:12.780
In the area where where there is
a big tour home printer for

01:09:12.780 --> 01:09:16.870
patients uh. It's been narrow interpretation
that usually when

01:09:16.980 --> 01:09:21.780
that I was there at cry out or you
can and and prosecutors that

01:09:21.820 --> 01:09:25.920
the fighting whether to go forward.
So we we think that there

01:09:25.920 --> 01:09:30.730
is value to a weird where it's tough
for both it was clear judgement.

01:09:31.490 --> 01:09:37.770
That get rid of abuse bravely
out way any advantage a to a.

01:09:38.420 --> 01:09:41.380
Leaving people out liberty
the from their own live.

01:09:42.090 --> 01:09:45.460
And situation where did with the
balance that advantage of the

01:09:45.460 --> 01:09:48.330
patiently clear we think there's
that great value.

01:09:48.860 --> 01:09:52.620
And having a clear bright line
rule rather than leaving a fly

01:09:52.830 --> 01:09:53.920
ball to um.

01:09:54.710 --> 01:09:58.580
The of how good five one eight
their appleton assert that is

01:09:58.580 --> 01:09:59.270
with that.

01:10:00.110 --> 01:10:04.600
To a relationship between the mental
health professional a psychiatrist

01:10:04.800 --> 01:10:08.160
lesson that current patient. We
think that would be out who've

01:10:08.160 --> 01:10:12.940
liam no-go. We're in he did that
them but they buried that uh.

01:10:14.170 --> 01:10:17.160
This is that criminal conduct.
That's the patient to promote

01:10:17.190 --> 01:10:19.660
heavily dependent doors
that the that.

01:10:20.510 --> 01:10:24.450
Psychiatry at comprises an do polarity
you're talking about cars.

01:10:25.020 --> 01:10:28.830
And my view that he was a I did
how I appreciate that a very

01:10:28.830 --> 01:10:31.960
good prosecutor could
make a The vast but.

01:10:32.510 --> 01:10:35.150
When the law that created that
can communicate in that.

01:10:36.020 --> 01:10:40.300
Uh and yet the always there's there's
no doubt deprecation lies you.

01:10:40.880 --> 01:10:44.230
That's very live. They're very very
funny because we're relationship

01:10:44.230 --> 01:10:45.500
like that ever should.

01:10:46.350 --> 01:10:47.850
That would be appropriate.

01:10:48.400 --> 01:10:49.530
For parade they will.

01:10:50.230 --> 01:10:53.360
Um and I could think of that me
a very areas that that I and

01:10:53.360 --> 01:10:54.230
it may be that.

01:10:55.460 --> 01:10:59.760
Sexual relationship between a member
of our military and the rebellion.

01:11:00.500 --> 01:11:03.650
And that combat about that could
be pretty day and promote the

01:11:03.650 --> 01:11:06.740
ball under any for that
but I don't know but.

01:11:07.340 --> 01:11:08.910
Uh that might be the Kate.

01:11:09.530 --> 01:11:13.530
Uh oh I think there is a certainly
it's been our experience with

01:11:13.530 --> 01:11:15.900
for that to alcohol related.

01:11:16.550 --> 01:11:18.170
A situation.

01:11:18.680 --> 01:11:22.800
The current law was that much today
that to effectively communicate

01:11:23.030 --> 01:11:27.060
that the patiently protector
a standard that can but

01:11:28.400 --> 01:11:31.490
So it's like you very much edges
was trying to get your attention

01:11:31.490 --> 01:11:35.930
because so uh our next I'm back
jan from his anderson's coming

01:11:35.930 --> 01:11:40.000
in we so at do people dance questioned
so. I'm I and I dance

01:11:40.000 --> 01:11:41.600
going them is that counted trident.

01:11:42.240 --> 01:11:46.770
Can't dance responses plays this
to Taylor about the acid.

01:11:46.770 --> 01:11:50.190
Thank you very much professor and
members of the pavel figure

01:11:50.220 --> 01:11:53.500
informations been very helpful
uh. If I understood your.

01:11:54.050 --> 01:11:57.900
Comments earlier about transit your
noticing with right shield

01:11:57.900 --> 01:12:01.140
in some on walls. I think I understood
you to say that prior

01:12:01.140 --> 01:12:04.740
sexual activity is generally considered
ended noticeable with

01:12:04.740 --> 01:12:08.580
some exceptions a tool of the items
are just have always been

01:12:08.580 --> 01:12:13.110
asked to address for instances
in which far sexual conduct of

01:12:13.160 --> 01:12:17.010
the alleged victim was considered
in a preliminary hearing and

01:12:17.010 --> 01:12:20.780
didn't sack a plate instances in
which some more evidence of.

01:12:21.320 --> 01:12:24.650
Of was presented a court martial
and what impact that head on

01:12:24.650 --> 01:12:25.230
the case.

01:12:25.750 --> 01:12:28.820
So wondered if you would do share
your thoughts with us on when

01:12:28.820 --> 01:12:29.420
it forever.

01:12:29.990 --> 01:12:33.170
You frank prior sexual activity.
I should be that most of it.

01:12:35.360 --> 01:12:37.300
Uh well I I think that.

01:12:37.800 --> 01:12:39.640
That it could to were.

01:12:40.360 --> 01:12:44.410
Carter's backbeat. Yeah that and
structure and that the act of

01:12:44.460 --> 01:12:47.960
god from the tree or a Mac. I apologize
that I love that I was

01:12:48.050 --> 01:12:49.330
able to hear or a.

01:12:49.940 --> 01:12:53.960
Of that perhaps fewer have been
to the trunk got my attention

01:12:53.960 --> 01:12:55.790
in the middle of my prior calmes.

01:12:56.420 --> 01:12:59.770
As that says I would like the that
have to address about but

01:12:59.770 --> 01:13:04.300
it did very big and very complicated
topic that we've given your

01:13:04.410 --> 01:13:06.960
data for copy of heart a good.

01:13:07.490 --> 01:13:13.040
Draft which that has about 30 of 40
pages the drafting. The question

01:13:13.040 --> 01:13:17.240
of like that the Um I would get
very briefly that sit there are

01:13:17.330 --> 01:13:22.620
situations where there that the
U.S have totally requires said

01:13:22.660 --> 01:13:27.040
that facility shows about having
that was a urge spectacle a

01:13:27.110 --> 01:13:27.910
really have.

01:13:28.420 --> 01:13:31.230
A there may be great
to have called a.

01:13:32.330 --> 01:13:33.270
Good ago ever that.

01:13:33.850 --> 01:13:37.070
A a pair of here were a.

01:13:37.790 --> 01:13:40.770
Paired them bolder demon or something
like that we can found

01:13:40.770 --> 01:13:44.200
on the victim handed
maybe that prior a.

01:13:44.830 --> 01:13:49.770
The head of prior to counter a on
the part of the complain that

01:13:49.990 --> 01:13:53.980
provide an alternative explanation
that that go back can be kept

01:13:53.980 --> 01:13:56.450
out and do that record has.

01:13:57.000 --> 01:14:01.520
Been drafted the you as well and come
to call her know it complicated

01:14:01.590 --> 01:14:04.450
are about wine that fall that with
that quote that I wake who

01:14:04.480 --> 01:14:04.870
would it.

01:14:06.200 --> 01:14:07.520
You know the questions.

01:14:08.510 --> 01:14:12.640
Also see this is um and It I get
this take delivery of the care

01:14:12.640 --> 01:14:16.240
since sadness detail is never the question
be when amplify iran some.

01:14:18.360 --> 01:14:20.460
Masham you that if you
miss a do that.

01:14:21.540 --> 01:14:25.530
Um. You are a good vacated may.
Yes sir. Okay thank you.

01:14:26.330 --> 01:14:27.240
Thank you I'm.

01:14:28.790 --> 01:14:33.790
We in our the Draft current draught
which had been very effectively

01:14:33.820 --> 01:14:34.360
to go out.

01:14:34.970 --> 01:14:40.240
Uh we have identified about thick
the that pick areas with um

01:14:40.270 --> 01:14:44.720
prior sexual activity of the complainant
could be had that the

01:14:44.750 --> 01:14:50.370
deal a wine as a to provide an alternative
explanation for physical

01:14:50.370 --> 01:14:50.870
ever that.

01:14:51.480 --> 01:14:55.870
Uh and other is to win that offer
to prove to complain and fiat

01:14:55.980 --> 01:14:57.450
or motive to fabricate.

01:14:58.040 --> 01:15:00.190
A four to if they'd had and he.

01:15:00.960 --> 01:15:05.230
A admitted avid and And by showing
that this this contradiction

01:15:05.230 --> 01:15:10.120
with a free grappled with a derek
they indicate where they are

01:15:10.120 --> 01:15:11.270
paid to wear.

01:15:11.820 --> 01:15:16.860
A A victim of picked up a
young man on the highway.

01:15:17.480 --> 01:15:23.150
He's a Complete stranger and head
but with him and then a wicked

01:15:23.180 --> 01:15:26.290
the allegation was that the
ford that's up on her.

01:15:26.940 --> 01:15:29.510
And her cat the money work
that he would never.

01:15:30.120 --> 01:15:34.130
The good that cooking voluntarily
a and the defense offered could

01:15:34.130 --> 01:15:37.540
prove that in fact he had done something
like that voluntarily

01:15:37.540 --> 01:15:39.870
on a previous case. So a.

01:15:40.440 --> 01:15:44.520
Habit as to whether we're different
made of that that that statement

01:15:44.520 --> 01:15:48.690
which a doctor prior behaviour.
That's another is just with.

01:15:49.280 --> 01:15:53.240
A prior and it's been a
have to be admitted.

01:15:54.080 --> 01:15:58.080
Um. There are a the role
of really like that.

01:15:58.670 --> 01:16:01.020
Um when the if they're
made beat them.

01:16:01.640 --> 01:16:03.750
The situation where we have it in.

01:16:04.400 --> 01:16:07.600
The the hates to the notion that
somebody would it be and that

01:16:07.600 --> 01:16:08.940
quote it really do.

01:16:09.510 --> 01:16:11.330
That. To be a.

01:16:12.220 --> 01:16:15.770
Scenario that the prided might be
an comfortably and follow the

01:16:15.770 --> 01:16:16.770
ball because that hurt.

01:16:17.380 --> 01:16:18.910
The profitability of because that.

01:16:19.460 --> 01:16:23.660
A great doubt bow of the victims
has been complaining where that.

01:16:24.200 --> 01:16:26.900
Have been handcuff that suppose
because of that.

01:16:27.460 --> 01:16:28.630
And and uh.

01:16:29.280 --> 01:16:35.360
Penetrated. A good back on their fate
they got a copy of coworkers.

01:16:35.960 --> 01:16:39.880
Uh and that the defendant want to
prove that the the complaining

01:16:39.880 --> 01:16:42.250
with it has voluntarily agree to.

01:16:42.800 --> 01:16:46.410
A that type of beat a
beer in the past a.

01:16:47.140 --> 01:16:51.280
Good but the defended claimant can that
can an entirely different light.

01:16:51.280 --> 01:16:54.760
It purely makeup libya filming that
nobody would ever come and

01:16:54.830 --> 01:16:58.190
that the Development that bill adamant
that have to be georgia

01:16:58.190 --> 01:17:00.460
doubted wait to to are.

01:17:01.070 --> 01:17:06.460
Uh they are prado a hair at the
same time not the simply don't

01:17:06.460 --> 01:17:09.870
that that the complaining with the
Fact that the fact that one

01:17:09.870 --> 01:17:13.650
person in the past that the likely
to come and other people in

01:17:13.650 --> 01:17:14.200
the future.

01:17:16.010 --> 01:17:18.840
I'll I'll just like to give any
member of the family Chester

01:17:18.840 --> 01:17:23.640
common on the Out thank you um. Yeah
that that is a tricky situation

01:17:23.640 --> 01:17:25.960
in when you're talking about rape
shield that's in place for

01:17:25.960 --> 01:17:29.380
a reason and the the more exceptions
you good and some of those

01:17:29.410 --> 01:17:32.250
a sort of remind me of how things
were before we had great she'll

01:17:32.520 --> 01:17:35.760
and uh it would let in all sorts of evidence
that could be characterized

01:17:35.760 --> 01:17:36.370
under a.

01:17:36.890 --> 01:17:40.550
Numerous exceptions that really
have nothing to do with uh the

01:17:40.550 --> 01:17:43.510
case except trashing the victim which
is exactly what the practice

01:17:43.510 --> 01:17:47.420
was um. So of course where you have
a fiscal evidence that nice

01:17:47.420 --> 01:17:50.800
to be explained that. Absolutely
could be an exception um where

01:17:50.800 --> 01:17:53.980
you have a prior sexual relationship
of between the parties that

01:17:54.010 --> 01:17:57.370
that is a common exception that
to you want to be able to the

01:17:57.370 --> 01:17:58.450
one to that to explain that.

01:17:58.960 --> 01:18:03.050
That maybe we're the the issue of consent
a came enter was confusing

01:18:03.260 --> 01:18:06.520
up things like that but potter
exceptions to it. I think just

01:18:06.520 --> 01:18:09.870
really run the risk of going back
to the way things war and the

01:18:10.270 --> 01:18:13.000
horrible practices that prevented
victims were coming ford in

01:18:13.000 --> 01:18:16.130
the first place additional you mentioned
them preliminary hearing

01:18:16.360 --> 01:18:20.740
and the use of a um car sexual conduct
or a brick shield implications

01:18:20.740 --> 01:18:25.100
their preliminary hearings typically.
Credibility is not an issue there.

01:18:25.130 --> 01:18:28.770
It is simply a fact finding a hearing
to determine whether snuff

01:18:28.770 --> 01:18:31.890
and it skills for to trial
and so to the extent that.

01:18:32.420 --> 01:18:36.130
Rape shield would be used to to go
up the credibility of a victim

01:18:36.360 --> 01:18:40.290
a it should not be allowed to come in
here and if it was to explain away.

01:18:40.340 --> 01:18:43.560
The scientific evidence or physical
evidence that was introduced

01:18:43.910 --> 01:18:48.370
in a preliminary hearing the matt
might be one exception um and

01:18:48.400 --> 01:18:52.360
any time the prosecution opens
the door where a victim makes

01:18:52.390 --> 01:18:55.120
that state than affirmative statement
up and you could have a

01:18:55.120 --> 01:18:58.580
hearing to asked the judge will
now this is relevant Disney's

01:18:58.580 --> 01:19:02.140
the command not be the incident of
the individual who was picking

01:19:02.140 --> 01:19:05.540
up folks along highway or whatever
that that the judge would

01:19:05.540 --> 01:19:08.180
be able to look at that meet the
other catch-all exception is

01:19:08.430 --> 01:19:11.820
it that's going to a
it it it impose a.

01:19:12.530 --> 01:19:16.230
Burden on a defendant's constitutional
rights of which is sort

01:19:16.230 --> 01:19:19.150
of a catch-all one and if it's
going to affect his ability to

01:19:19.150 --> 01:19:21.940
receive a fair trial when you have
that kinda cattrall to to

01:19:21.940 --> 01:19:23.700
live in but I worry about.

01:19:24.410 --> 01:19:28.570
Lots of exceptions for rape shield
and uh how we treat victims

01:19:28.570 --> 01:19:31.290
and the art history with that that
which explains why we have

01:19:31.290 --> 01:19:31.780
are choke.

01:19:33.400 --> 01:19:38.580
Okay thank you. I'm gonna take a couple
can agitated castle questions

01:19:38.580 --> 01:19:40.840
myself sir the Thank you.

01:19:41.530 --> 01:19:48.640
Um. First to the talent and in way falling
upon a judge jones. Concerned.

01:19:49.300 --> 01:19:54.590
Have. The uh I know you know mister
Robinson you said that.

01:19:55.220 --> 01:19:55.850
Well this.

01:19:56.540 --> 01:20:00.490
Prosecutors can do a lot even lists
statutes and may not be perfect

01:20:00.990 --> 01:20:02.430
but I think our um.

01:20:03.090 --> 01:20:04.980
Mandate here is to see what.

01:20:05.720 --> 01:20:08.460
Uh and protection say
are that there is.

01:20:08.990 --> 01:20:12.860
No jet in Lima jerry jesse is set
the statute section one 20

01:20:13.260 --> 01:20:16.750
and civil we can do to make it better
and and Aviv had a chance

01:20:16.750 --> 01:20:21.720
to reviews that and uh or having
that if you wouldn't mind taking

01:20:21.720 --> 01:20:25.330
a look added and giving us your command
said that were you thinking

01:20:25.330 --> 01:20:28.530
could be strengthened right
and what's mia saying.

01:20:29.250 --> 01:20:32.230
They are in mind the statute is
been changed mass several times

01:20:32.230 --> 01:20:35.630
in the past few years. So we know
and drive prosecutors and defense

01:20:35.630 --> 01:20:38.330
counsel crazy totally crazy but.

01:20:38.960 --> 01:20:42.310
And for the try to get it right
up by that we need to do.

01:20:42.930 --> 01:20:45.180
And as so will a professor um.

01:20:46.260 --> 01:20:48.090
And I say that was all complementing.

01:20:49.240 --> 01:20:53.730
Um will you mention at the outset of
your remarks that you identified

01:20:53.730 --> 01:20:56.860
a number of issues in
section one twenty.

01:20:57.640 --> 01:20:59.860
Uh would you mind telling and that.

01:21:00.530 --> 01:21:03.880
The telling us what those issues
are obviously a added that we

01:21:03.880 --> 01:21:06.260
have time thing to do going
to let them at the moment.

01:21:06.950 --> 01:21:10.500
But who had Seagate debt by some
of the major concert you have

01:21:10.500 --> 01:21:13.340
at least rise now and we would love
to have the opportunity to

01:21:13.340 --> 01:21:17.750
explore you views and this later
sell and Benny what supersede

01:21:17.780 --> 01:21:19.730
first to a And um.

01:21:20.510 --> 01:21:22.250
Because of the fed professor.

01:21:22.940 --> 01:21:24.380
PS. I would.

01:21:24.920 --> 01:21:30.300
Like if I can can character briefly
um. I would be happy to continue

01:21:30.300 --> 01:21:33.890
to that that's the thing that with
us at another time. I think

01:21:34.030 --> 01:21:39.960
the But my what we have only three
men had. Remaining a Uh so

01:21:40.360 --> 01:21:42.820
uh it being the made that that did.

01:21:43.730 --> 01:21:45.130
The debate that that the of.

01:21:46.110 --> 01:21:49.860
The military the that
seemed to be a.

01:21:50.750 --> 01:21:55.120
Have started with a confection of
great as the crime of of physical

01:21:55.120 --> 01:22:00.650
for and then a added onto as a
here in their drive that venom

01:22:00.650 --> 01:22:05.450
ended that in a ways is produced
to delete the is very confusing

01:22:05.600 --> 01:22:10.290
structure uh and that that the notion
that penetration without

01:22:10.380 --> 01:22:10.910
and that.

01:22:11.540 --> 01:22:15.790
A good in the alphabet about that
come through clearly you have

01:22:15.790 --> 01:22:16.470
to pack it.

01:22:16.980 --> 01:22:19.700
Together a and I think it feel.

01:22:20.220 --> 01:22:22.650
In my mind extremely date.

01:22:23.180 --> 01:22:27.230
A bottle you I'd I get that goes
I think I got hit we're probably

01:22:27.230 --> 01:22:30.310
harwood the one that john doubt
it is about lee harvey and the

01:22:30.310 --> 01:22:31.260
offense the action.

01:22:32.060 --> 01:22:36.960
Have including any non can control
that will act so any non can

01:22:36.960 --> 01:22:41.720
control act. This is by definition
bodily harm. And then matt

01:22:41.830 --> 01:22:45.300
definition all that the can that
that none that can found.

01:22:45.830 --> 01:22:46.400
It's to.

01:22:46.940 --> 01:22:50.390
Muzzle the and that I don't visit.
Well I got very good day at

01:22:50.390 --> 01:22:54.200
the Gerard cuddly a hadn't choral
with the outcome but I don't

01:22:54.200 --> 01:22:54.580
think it.

01:22:55.110 --> 01:22:57.140
I think it's very confusing to.

01:22:57.660 --> 01:22:58.980
A fairly.

01:22:59.530 --> 01:23:03.510
That cried a defamation of
bodily harm the way that.

01:23:04.100 --> 01:23:08.250
That you'd be and eight currently
died at the very quick very

01:23:08.340 --> 01:23:11.540
superficial of reaction. But I
I would be happy with the cuts

01:23:11.540 --> 01:23:11.930
the bird.

01:23:13.100 --> 01:23:16.310
As it is to look into the jus real
quick out and I agree with

01:23:16.310 --> 01:23:20.470
that bodily harm wang which the which
covers the a non consensual sexual.

01:23:20.540 --> 01:23:23.260
Or course I'm like it the common.

01:23:24.290 --> 01:23:27.680
Understanding of that term would
mean something more uh and I

01:23:27.710 --> 01:23:30.550
I worry about how that term might
be used elsewhere in the you

01:23:30.550 --> 01:23:35.510
see and jay that conflicts with
um its use here in one 20 uh

01:23:35.580 --> 01:23:38.630
so that I would want something
more clear in that situation.

01:23:38.630 --> 01:23:42.390
I think it's good that that the code
covers that activity they'll

01:23:42.590 --> 01:23:45.920
and covers it um. What some mine
which that just wouldn't be

01:23:45.920 --> 01:23:48.780
the preferred mind to might the
mind just the term barley are

01:23:49.100 --> 01:23:52.070
um that person's an authority which
in all have discussed in

01:23:52.070 --> 01:23:56.090
is obviously a difficult concept
in the military which seems

01:23:56.090 --> 01:23:59.400
to fit not exactly in the corrections
world of the employment world.

01:23:59.400 --> 01:24:03.020
But somewhere in between a and then
a affirmative consent would

01:24:03.020 --> 01:24:06.690
be another area that you might wanna
examine a to see if a didn't

01:24:06.690 --> 01:24:09.990
should we require some affirmative
consent either by words are

01:24:09.990 --> 01:24:14.450
by actions to establish tech consent
was a given in the situation.

01:24:14.450 --> 01:24:18.230
So some of the language and some
of those provisions um would

01:24:18.230 --> 01:24:21.250
be the areas that I think I might
focus on because it is pretty

01:24:21.250 --> 01:24:24.700
copper hands and it does cover a
lot of a lot of but it's Okay

01:24:24.870 --> 01:24:27.880
it's just don't get a quick question
make a sweetness that that

01:24:27.880 --> 01:24:31.390
that I had a quick question which showed
that I just press despising

01:24:31.390 --> 01:24:35.150
de la agreed without the process
of that the we have to get rid

01:24:35.150 --> 01:24:38.110
of it could be would help tremendously
to get rid of the ambiguity

01:24:38.370 --> 01:24:41.800
that's our the reason we hear on
that this pavel than the and

01:24:41.830 --> 01:24:45.130
and and congresses doing what
it's doing and so I'm.

01:24:45.750 --> 01:24:49.950
I don't uh I think to the extent that
leaf for the meet and discuss

01:24:49.950 --> 01:24:53.990
these things quote would really
be helpful to me as if a any

01:24:53.990 --> 01:24:57.070
the people who testified the it
today I'm on the panel live or

01:24:57.350 --> 01:24:59.480
a bite by phone.

01:25:00.020 --> 01:25:04.210
Um could possibly with a and say
21 day is give us the I'm a

01:25:04.210 --> 01:25:04.650
walk out.

01:25:05.270 --> 01:25:08.760
The a personal mock up of you see
I'm jay one 20 and whether

01:25:08.760 --> 01:25:11.670
that space strike outs. We worton
changing will be re. Right dole.

01:25:11.670 --> 01:25:15.030
Thank is totally up to damn but
I don't wanna just discuss.

01:25:15.030 --> 01:25:18.730
I wanna see physically from you
a perspective of what you would

01:25:18.730 --> 01:25:24.010
do in our context that would help
me tremendously um as we tried

01:25:24.010 --> 01:25:26.820
to correct way we go phone and tell
I'd invite you and I'd love

01:25:26.820 --> 01:25:30.370
to receive something and Maybe two
weeks just more than up and

01:25:30.370 --> 01:25:33.120
send it in and then if we have questions
will be able get back

01:25:33.120 --> 01:25:36.170
to lhc if we don't but I think a
lot of it'll be obvious to west

01:25:36.170 --> 01:25:38.680
but it's not then we have
something to discuss.

01:25:39.470 --> 01:25:43.190
So this will take more than a market
or other than a market and

01:25:43.290 --> 01:25:47.450
you I send a paragraph or something
else will take that as well

01:25:47.450 --> 01:25:50.680
would very much appreciate that
at times expired now for this

01:25:50.850 --> 01:25:54.360
to destroy and say thank you to all the
members that cathia very informative.

01:25:54.860 --> 01:25:58.370
Testimony and we look forward to
it you are tell the past the

01:25:58.370 --> 01:26:01.420
need a lot of your help as we
go forward. Thanks so much.

01:26:02.240 --> 01:26:02.600
Thank you.

01:26:03.260 --> 01:26:04.070
Thank you for that.

01:26:05.980 --> 01:26:09.730
Yeah I'm like of up a five
minute break. Thank you..